How do you measure a cable?

Kevinvb11 · April 2005

I've been in the mix of things for about ten years. Throughout all the mixtures between electronics I have yet to see a difference in a particular interconnect.

I am in search of a source to state factual reading that can proove one cable being better than another. Or, better yet, can it be proven?

I know it can be measured that one amplifier has more power output than another. I also know it can be measured that one amplifier has a less distortion than another. Amp's can be measured. Your source can be measured. But can a single cable be measured??

Is there a non-subjective fact that states on interconnect being measureable?

Thanks for any and all input.

Kevin

TroyD · April 2005

let me make an analogy....

Let's say that you give two chef's the exact same ingredients to work with and they have to use every bit of it......is it possible that they could produce two meals with the very same ingredients of the same amounts yet taste completely different?

While it may not be a perfect analogy, do you see my point??

Look, if you think that everything in the universe that makes a noticeable difference has a corresponding measurment, well, you are letting the best in life pass you by.

BDT

Kevinvb11 · April 2005

I'm just trying to find out a solid fact saying why a particular cable is better than another without saying, "you are letting the best in life pass you by."

I'd just like to know, because I can find out all the specs on a process, yet I can find ZERO measurement of a cable. Other than your opinion to justify one cost over antoher, I still have nothing to show in the cable department.

For now, I would like to state one fact...

Chefs create meals not physics...

jdhdiggs · April 2005

There are results on the web of multiple testing and experiments, just search for them. All of them have their supporters and detractors. Solid results and sketchy.

Also, like everything on the internet, it is just heresay since there is no review for accuracy. Since there are already at least 5 active threads on this topic already floating around here, I suggest you start there

jcaut · April 2005

There are no measurements you can do on an audio interconnect, that will show that one is better than another, unless one of them is defective. It can't be done. Either listen and compare, choose one based on construction quality, or forget about it. That's really all you can do.

Jason

TroyD · April 2005

Look, I'm about as skeptical as they get, however, I've heard differences between cables. Some more dramatic than others.

Why? I don't know.

IMO, go out and try it for yourself via the cable swap program. If you don't hear any differences, cool. If you do hear a difference, does it matter if it's measurable or not? Then the pertinent question becomes at what cost and what level.........

Oh, and science does come into play with cooking.

BDT

Kevinvb11 · April 2005

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
There are results on the web of multiple testing and experiments, just search for them. All of them have their supporters and detractors. Solid results and sketchy.

Also, like everything on the internet, it is just heresay since there is no review for accuracy. Since there are already at least 5 active threads on this topic already floating around here, I suggest you start there

Wow. Be all, end all. Topic closed.

No discusion on the measurment of a cable.

This is what seems to happen when I mention cable measure. People get defensive.... tell me to search, say it is just heresay since there is no review for accuracy.

They tell me to look at other posts/threads.....blah blah.... Still no facts on MEASUREMENT!!!

"There are results on the web of multiple testing and experiments"

Testing+experiments+opinion= ZERO facts, IMO

How can a cable make a difference between my CD-->DAC???

That's what I want to know.

danger boy · April 2005

only your ears can tell you whether one cable is better sounding than another. I don't know of any gadget that can determine cable sound and measure it. Your ears are the best instrument to determine that.

shack · April 2005

There are at least 5 threads going on at this very time discussing this very subject. There is NO consensus on any of those threads....so what makes you think you will get a definitive answer to your question. Since it has been hashed about for a couple of days I doubt if the majority of posters are up for finding your "facts" for you. If you want better answers to your questions I would recommend.....

jdhdiggs · April 2005

Well, now I know I must be on the fence and neutral in this debate... I'm getting trashed from both sides!

Troy said it best, do your own testing the way you feel it proves this issue to you and be done with it. All the graphs and conjecture won't give you what your looking for so do it yourself.

Spawndn72 · April 2005

Dumb question. But exactly what info is being sent through these interconnects. Is it digital and just a bunch of zero's and one's or is it a wave(sine or otherwise)? Or something different.

The next question I have is this. Should we not be more concerned with which cable preserves the integrity of the source signal better than with which cable "sounds" better. For example everyone says that you should not use an EQ to color your sound. If you are using a cable that you think "sounds" better, could it not be that the cable is coloring the sound?

steveinaz · April 2005

Kevin

Given that you have a well constructed, good material cable, the proof is in the listening. This is such a subjective topic that you really need to listen to some different products and decide for yourself if certain cables "improve" your sound. Read up on some cable topology and design theory, as well as material used and make up your own mind based on those theories.

I personally like solid core/individually insulated litz/hyper-litz wire topology. Why? because the theories on current strand jumping, and reduced capacitance make sense to me and appear to be practical arguments based on electron theory. As it turns it out, I like the sound so well, I'll never go back to a multi-strand wire.

Research, then listen.

F1nut · April 2005

Specs don't mean very much in the audio world. You can have two amps that spec the same....hell, you can have ten amps that spec the same and not one of those amps will sound the same. The use of specs to determine how something will sound is absolutely pointless.

I'll take this a little further, tube gear specs generally look worse than SS gear, yet tube gear is generally better sounding gear. Then we have the issue of synergy. This, more than anything else will either make your set up great or piss poor and there are no specs that can tell you that.

Here's some "white paper" info from one cable maker if you want to read it, http://www.mitcables.com/technology/wp.asp
FWIW, I believe they hold more patents in cable technology than any other maker.

Bottom line, you have to hear it for yourself.

bknauss · April 2005

Originally posted by F1nut
Specs don't mean very much in the audio world. You can have two amps that spec the same....hell, you can have ten amps that spec the same and not one of those amps will sound the same. The use of specs to determine how something will sound is absolutely pointless.

There's been a study reproduced many times where the power levels and frequency responses were matched within tenths of a dB. No one has been able to differentiate between two amps, even crap amp compared to some ridiculously priced amps, with certainty over 20 or 25 trials.

To answer the original post, head over to audioholics.com and read up on their wire/cable articles. I think you'll get a better idea after that.

F1nut · April 2005

Just another useless study in my book. Why, you ask? Because I can hear the difference and that's all that matters.

VR3 · April 2005

How do you measure a cable...

Well...when I measure one...

Spawndn72 · April 2005

That is the cooooolest cable I have ever seen.

:)______

Man that yellow color is AWSOME. Is it marked like that to show which way the current flows???? That is one honk'in connecter on the left end though. What kind of post does that fit?

Aw man, the board messed up my drool figure. Now it is just a smile with a line.

F1nut · April 2005

Master Sid Bater, what's with all those stains?

VR3 · April 2005

Lived here 10 years..

Drinks + 6-7-8-9-10 year old boy = stains

nadams · April 2005

Beat me to it, Sid... I was gonna post the same thing without the picture

F1nut · April 2005

Buzzed the tower.....again.

bknauss · April 2005

Originally posted by F1nut
Just another useless study in my book. Why, you ask? Because I can hear the difference and that's all that matters.

Its not saying there aren't audible differences in amplifiers, cause everyone *should* know there are, even if the gains are set to match. What its showing is that a crappy POS amp can sound more or less identical to any other amp by simply matching freq resp and power output (which is basically the same thing).

mantis · April 2005

Alot of good points already have been made here about cables.

I also understand the question.

Cables can be meausred. they are measured. Go to this website for measurements.
www.kimber.com

Ray Kimber is an electrical engineer. Read about his products and find that measurement is very important.

That still doesn't say anything about sound quality. As pointed out , you can have the same ingredients and have different sound quality. Why??? construction , the way the wire is wound , how much or less interference,etc.

I want to ask you a question... Have you ever sat down and listened to 2 different cables? did you hear any differences? This is where the truth comes in.

Again as many pointed out already , spec's don't explain the whole story why something sounds good or not. It kills me that there are all these holes in our hobby , but may the truth be told , I can hear a difference between different speakers, different receivers, pre's and amps, Sources , and last but not least cables.

I probably conducted more cable shootouts then most sane people.

Another point already made is Synergy. this is even more important then anything. A good matched system sounds better then one that isn't. Even if the unmatch system is of higher quality.

Good luck with your quest.

Dan

Emlyn · April 2005

Any cable can be measured for resistance, capacitance, and inductance. It's both how the cable is built and how it interacts when it is between two components that will ultimately affect the performance of the cable. Not all cables will perform the same way with different equipment. This is why it's important to match cables to gear. Buy used and experiment.

Good reading here:

Does wire matter?

mantis · April 2005

Monocle X
Basic Electrical Specifications
DUT: MX 2.5m terminated with WBT-0660-Cu spades.

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 789.0 pF @ 20 kHz
(Ls) series inductance: 0.946 H @ 20 kHz
(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.036
(Xt) total reactance: 0.115 @ 20 kHz
Frequency response ± 0.5 dB dc - 750 kHz

This is the speaker wire I'm considering to use with my new speakers.

8TC
Basic Electrical Specifications
DUT: 8TC 2.5m bare wire ends.

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 821.0 pF @ 20 kHz
(Ls) series inductance: 0.345 H @ 20 kHz
(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.018
(Xt) total reactance: 0.044 @ 20 kHz
Frequency response ± 0.5 dB dc - 300 kHz

This is the one I have already used and also considering using in a single run.

These measurements don't mean much to me. I don't know if they are useful for you.

Dan

Kevinvb11 · April 2005

Originally posted by mantis
Monocle X

These measurements don't mean much to me. I don't know if they are useful for you.

Dan

Well. it's a start. I'll see if I can find out what exactly those numbers mean. Still, these are speaker wires and those numbers can probably be formed to represent a given wire. I'll keep looking for any values on interconnects.

Thanks though.

mantis · April 2005

Kevinvb11,
This is what I use now for Interconnects

Hero
Basic Electrical Specifications
DUT: Hero 1m terminated with WBT-0144 RCA type connectors..

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 76.5 pF @ 20 kHz
(Ls) series inductance: 0.401 H @ 20 kHz
(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.033
(Xt) total reactance: 0.051 @ 20 kHz
Frequency response ± 0.5 dB dc - 8 MHz

This is what I'm considering for my upgrade

Silver Streak Single Ended
Basic Electrical Specifications
DUT: Silver Streak SE 1m terminated with WBT-0147 RCA type connectors.

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 53.0 pF @ 20 kHz
(Ls) series inductance: 0.750 H @ 20 kHz
(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.061
(Xt) total reactance: 0.095 @ 20 kHz
Frequency response ± 0.5 dB dc - 10 MHz

Again I hope this is what your looking for.

Dan

Kevinvb11 · April 2005

Well, again, it's a start. I've got to find out the same measurements of toss in cables and then go from there.

Thanks for the info.

Kevin

PolkFreak · April 2005

I'd like to say that those were all very good points by all of the veteran Club Polk members. Those specs that Mantis showed are the ones of the first things I thought of when I saw the title of the thread. But the very first thing I thought of was two different
speaker companies that have the exact same specs as far as output, size of drivers, cabinets, sensitivity, and resistance. All that stuff my be the same, but they sound different. The only measure to that is the 2 EARS attached to your head. If you can't tell the difference you are without a doubt TONE DEAF. Its like asking for a definitive paper measured answer of how those speakers sound different in the same way the speakers are rated
for output. What the individual HEARS is immeasurable. You could
stick a person who is tone deaf in front of a pair of Bose speakers
that are standing next to a pair of Polks. He heard of Bose, but not Polk. He chooses the Bose speakers because he can't hear much of a difference to begin with and he saw enough Bose advertisements to know Bose is the best in the world. What in the world could be better than Bose? After all they have, "BETTER SOUND THROUGH RESEARCH". Bose has researched so hard they can't even tell you the frequency response of their speakers! They have researched so hard you better just take their word for
it that they sound better because they know their ****! Is there a way you can be inside that tone deaf persons head and know exactly how he heard it? No, you can not. I think we have our answer people! In the same way you can't tape measure the way the tone deaf person heard it and write it on paper you can't
measure the difference your hearing in sound. Do speakers sound different? Yes, and so do cables. If you can't tell the difference go buy a Bose Wave Radio. Kevinvb11, you need to stop asking yourself questions that don't have definitive answers and are impossible to answer like, "what is it like to be dead"?
none of us can even have an answer to that and I'm still wondering what it is like without having to be dead.

Aaron · April 2005

What amuses me most about cable "measurements" is that each manufacturer has their own set of measurements. If there really was a measurement that corresponded to sound, don't you think everyone would use it? Then again, maybe the cable companies woud rather keep the consumer completely in the dark.

Aaron

F1nut · April 2005

And you think all the amp companies don't "twist" the specs around even though there is suppose to be a standard!?!

What amuses me are all the nay-sayers that keep harping that there are no "standards" for cables. There is, you have one on each side of your head.

How do you measure a cable?

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