Help, problems with low volume dialogue on LsiC

jrlouie

Can anyone give me some tips? I've always struggled with getting low volume dialogue to be audible without straining. For instance, the beginning scene of Swordfish where Travolta is talking quietly.
Certainly I can crank up the volume overall but then in all other scenes it is so loud that others watching the movie with me are uncofortable. I recently bought an M200 (as seen in the pic) to mate with my LsiC. That definitely made the LsiC sound a bit different and with music I love it. But I don't hear a big difference in clarity for low volume dialogue as I was hoping so I guess power wasn't the issue so much.
Is my placement that bad? I've also turned on Dynamic Range Compression within my DVD player and I also generally turn on the Late Night effect on my AVR to help. But it still just seems hard to hear on some conversations.
I'd like to have my center channel ring in clear and pristine and effortlessly audible. Seems that shouldn't be too much to ask.
Any responses/opinions are appreciated. I've attached a pic so you can see the front-side setup.
Thanks in advance.

jrlouie

forgot to attach the pic )

Sami

Sounds like you haven't calibrated the system? Get into your receiver setup and pump up the centre channel volume until you're happy, then pick up AVIA calibration disc and adjust all channels using the testones and sound pressure level meter.

You can pick up cheap SPL meter from Radio Shack. Should be around $50 or less.

If you have calibrated your system then I must have misunderstood your problem.

PolknPepsi

I do not have a home theatre set-up but as a guess maybe a bigger center? Someone here probably has some input concerning this......by the way those racks for all the equipment look NICE.

................Pat

Sami

Originally posted by jrlouie
I've also turned on Dynamic Range Compression within my DVD player and I also generally turn on the Late Night effect on my AVR to help.

Generally speaking of HT, compression should be set to off, the same with Late Night. Also check that your DVD is set to send BITSTREAM, not PCM. Are you playing the movies in DD and DTS only, no other processing schemes?

If someone complains about hard to hear dialog, my first reaction is to check they are using digital connection from the player and not analog. Usually that is the case but it doesn't seem to be in yours.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Sami
If someone complains about hard to hear dialog, my first reaction is to check they are using digital connection from the player and not analog.

Why the preference for digital over analog ?

jdhdiggs

Some people have mentioned problems with this speaker some time ago. It seems that the second midrange comes on too slow to boost male dialoge for some people. I know at least one forum member "fixed" this issue by exchanging the LSiC crossover with a LSi9 crossover with very good success.

This would be a last ditch save though, so try the other methods first.

jrlouie

Sorry guys, I should've clarified.
-I've calibrated with an SPL meter and actually favored the center by a dB
-When watching movies, I use digital out over an optical cable
-Generally while watching movies I listen to it in DD/DTS 6.1 and often use the 6.1 matrix functionality as the DVD's are not encoded in 6.1. Is this not recommended?

I'll check right now on the BITSTREAM vs. PCM. Typically speaking while watching satellite TV it is fine. My problems only arise while watching DVD's.

Thanks again for the responses.

Sami

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
Why the preference for digital over analog ?

Only when someone is using 2 channel analog, thinking they have surround sound. That has happened and it's the first thing I always ask when someone is having trouble hearing surround effects. If you're using the players DAC and passing all the channels to receiver with analog cables, that's not what I was referring to, sorry for not being clear.

jrlouie

I just checked, I do not have the digital out being converted to PCM so I think I'm good there. Any other thoughts?

Sami

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
This would be a last ditch save though, so try the other methods first.

Quick check would be to switch the CSi30 in place of the LSiC and see if that makes any improvement.

Sami

Originally posted by jrlouie
I just checked, I do not have the digital out being converted to PCM so I think I'm good there. Any other thoughts?

Have you watch movies with the compression off and also night mode off? Switch the CSi30 in front, calibrate it and listen if that makes the dialog any better.

jrlouie

I have watched movies before with the night mode off but the loud effects are just over-powering. Almost to the point that it distracts from the movie because you start thinking about how loud it is rather than thinking about the movie.
I haven't tried switching the LsiC with the CSi30 yet. I'd hate to end up doing that permanently as the LsiC was much more expensive and should be a much better speaker but I'll certainly give it a try.
Also, I don't know if it's just in my head or what but when I turned off the compression on the DVD player leaving the compression (late night) solely up to the AVR, the clarity seemed just slightly better. The volume of dialogue wasn't increased but just slightly clearer. I wonder if having it turned on in both places could've muddy'd up anything.

Sami

Originally posted by jrlouie

I haven't tried switching the LsiC with the CSi30 yet. I'd hate to end up doing that permanently as the LsiC was much more expensive and should be a much better speaker but I'll certainly give it a try.

That was just a suggestion to test whether it is speaker related or setup related problem. When you say the loud effects are overpowering, it makes me think maybe the movies just are mastered the way you don't want them. They are supposed to be loud compared to the dialogue and when you turn the volume down you will turn the dialogue too low? If that is the case, it might be worth to try if 2 channel suits you better, or you could try what happens when you turn the centre even louder compared to the rest of the speakers.

If it turns out to be speaker related, one option would be to replace that LSiC with a LSi7. I am using 7's all around and I am very happy with the results.

scottvamp

Mr. jrlouie, this problem is very common when people get to a certain level in speakers in thier HT. The effects seem to over power the dialogue. I and many have had the same problem.
How did i finally fix it?
I ran multiple center channels, seeing that 70% of your front stage is handled by your center channel. Better sound, more open powerful front stage and cystal clear audible dialogue.
Ofcourse I can only speak for the monster CS400's. Since my original post several Polkster's have been forever converted and have been very satified with the results. And it all started from too low dialogue.

jrlouie

Thanks for the suggestion scottvamp.
Per Sami's suggestion I'm going to test my Csi30 in front to ensure that there is no speaker problem with the LsiC. If test results are negative, I'll just leave that Csi30 up front for a bit to hear what an extra center sounds like. I realize they're not matching in front but I'm thinking I'll be able to see the big picture and whether or not I prefer two front centers.

Dr. Spec

My $0.02: Get that center channel up into the air, over the TV, tilted slightly down to the listening position, and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts the clarity and room filling presence will improve substantially.

I've never liked the center below the TV in a smaller room, because it fires into nearby furniture and the floor.

I never use the DRC controls in the DVD player and in the AVR. The DRC is the ememy of good bass and dynamic range (obviously).

If needed, I would favor the center by 2-3 dB and see what happens. Don't be a slave to the calibration settings; they are only guidelines and maybe your center sound is getting chewed up by furniture and carpeting and needs a helping hand.

I don't matrix 5.1 DVDs anymore, because it can actually cause the sound field to collapse at the sides. I did extensive A-B comparsions and I definitely prefer straight processing on 5.1 DVDs.

For instance, the beginning scene of Swordfish where Travolta is talking quietly. Certainly I can crank up the volume overall but then in all other scenes it is so loud that others watching the movie with me are uncofortable.

Believe it or no, the size/shape of your TV screen can have a large impact on the viewer's ability to tolerate a higher playback volume. A larger, dynamic, and loud system cannot be easily processed/accepted by the ears if the eyes are watching a 25" 4:3 image.

Doc

scottvamp

Believe it or no, the size/shape of your TV screen can have a large impact on the viewer's ability to tolerate a higher playback volume. A larger, dynamic, and loud system cannot be easily processed/accepted by the ears if the eyes are watching a 25" 4:3 image.

Good point - I am a bit hard on people with small TV's. I'm trying to be good, DOC has a point I would consider a TV upgrade before investing money on another center and amp power.

brettw22

When the LSiC's hit the market, the overall reaction to them is that they are lacking in volume department. This isn't something that's just inherant to your situation.

The solution would be to either look at another center, which would be a mismatch, or to look at upgrading the crossover internally with the crossover of an LSi9 like ezc did. The testing of the CSi30 is a good one, at least for peace of mind, but the bottom line is that the stock LSiC is something that most people have complained about in the LSi line.

Frank Z

2 rubber door stops place under the front of the CC to angle the speaker upwards toward your primary listening position may make a dramatic difference for about $2.59.

2 center channels is an expensive option that doesn't make a lot of sense for most people.

Work with what you got before dumping more money into speakers.

lomic

Hmm, really. I've read through old threads and most people seemed to be happy with the LSiC, except the couple who prefered it with the xover change.

I was planning on getting one soon to replace CSi3, but now I'm having doubts. For aesthetic reasons I don't want to use a speaker that was designed to be set vertically as a horizontal center channel, so that excludes using a single LSi7. Also doubt I'd want to take apart an LSiC to put in a new xover.

At least Crutchfield has 30 day return and free shipping - guess it can't hurt to try it out.

Frank Z

Buy it, you'll like it!!:)

TheReaper

Originally posted by jrlouie
Can anyone give me some tips? I've always struggled with getting low volume dialogue to be audible without straining. For instance, the beginning scene of Swordfish where Travolta is talking quietly.
Certainly I can crank up the volume overall but then in all other scenes it is so loud that others watching the movie with me are uncofortable....

I don't know if this applies to you or not. But some DVDs have a very wide dynamic range. If you are watching them at volumes lower than referance (which I do a lot). Scenes where the voice volume is low, will not be understandable. I just use the temporary speaker level adjustment function to bump the center a notch or two.

bbeacham

For what it is worth I have 2 LSi15 as fronts, LSiC, and LSi7s as rear. I just added the LSiW sub. My TV is 32" and the LSiC is on top (flat), and I do not have any problem with low audio.

I know that does not help you but it might indicate that the problem is not the speaker. Also, the other night when I first started listening to the new LSiW I was amazed at the level of the bass, and the fact that the rest of the audio was so clear. The bass did not drown out the audio, rather it complemented it.

Thanks for the tip regarding putting the door stops under the center. I will try that and see if it enhances the audio, although I have no complaints at this time.

Frank Z

Don't forget to post your results.

dave shepard

FWIW my Panny DVD/CD player says that when used with a reciever that decodes multi channel set the player to 2 channel not multi channel. I had mine set to multi channel in the players set-up and when I changed it to 2 channel the sound improved considerably. I don't know if this applys to you but might be worth looking into.

Dave

kingtut

I have a CS40i center channel. I had the same problem with dialogue in some movies during the quieter scenes, and had to go back and turn up the center channel. It probably has to do w/the acoustic and dimension in my room. It's has hardwood flooring. The room is very wide and open up to a kitchen, and the depth of the room is shorter then the width. I experimented w/different hook ups on the CS40i:

1) w/the Denon 3803 driving the CS40i: some movies' dialogue are not intelligible during the quiet scenes.

2) w/Audiosource Amp 3 bridged to 400 watts: same as the Denon 3803. The Audiosource Amp3 is really good with bass and clarity for two channels hook up w/the front speakers at 150w x 2, but the clarity in the dialogue did not improve in bridged mode. I believe it has to do w/additional distortion w/the bridged mode.

3) w/the B&K ST1400M mono block, the dialogue's clarity really improved, especially the male voice; it is clearer and more intelligible. The B&K ST1400M is a 42 lbs mono block, and it can drive two center channels, but I only hook up one CS40i to the B&K.

I hope this helps.

jrlouie

Alright guys, I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd at least post my results since you all helped with all the suggestions. I just hadn't really had time to do tests.
Anyway, I moved the CC up on top of the TV. First thing I noticed is how much more in-your-face the center felt. Much more dominant to the point I had to lower its output level just slightly. The other thing that immediately worried me was that I thought it was what some people call sibilant. I initially thought it was because I was no longer bi-wiring so I tried both variations for about a week each. Really I couldn't hear a difference with or without bi-wiring. So after giving myself an adjustment period, really I think I just wasn't used to the detail I can now hear. So essentially if I listen to low quality junk, it really sounds brutal. If I pop in a DVD, it sounds great.
As far as dialogue, ultimately I'd have to say there was a little improvement. In the new configuration, I'm able to watch movies without using DRC. The effects are sometimes still a bit much but not as bad as they used to be. Probably just the fact that I have such a small room, it will always be that way.
Thanks for the pointers and I think I'll leave it as is.

Oh yeah, regarding the Csi30 switch for a test, I did that and essentially had the same results which ruled out a defective LsiC. Although, as expected the two centers were quite a bit different sounding.

scottnbnj

maybe you're not done, you might still have options.

your lsic and 15's are very close to the brick wall, corners and windows. you're getting strong reflections. even though you can flatten the spls across the spectrum with eq or calibration, it doesn't really change the ratio of reflections to direct output from your speaks that you hear at the frequencies that are out of control.

can you move them into the room or away from the corners a bit?

if you can't do it permanently, you might just try moving them 2-3' into the room and away from the windows just to see how much more you can get from your system to have an idea of what to shoot for with tweaks and whatnot.

if your listening position is against the back wall, experiment with a couple of feet away from there too.

)

RobXant

I've worked through a similar issue. My story is that I went looking to replace a broken 10-year-old AVR and ended up at Tweeter. I bought the RX-V1400 as intended, but also got about 30% of on a set of RTi4s and a CSi3 center.

After a couple of weeks listening to the setup, I found the RTi4s were great for movies, but sucked for music. I found them very thin sounding. I then got a good deal from Brett on the LSi7s and couldn't be happier with them. I then found a one-time deal ($100-new-authorized dealer-don't ask!)on an LSiC and figured it would edge out the CSi3...

It is a very different speaker than the CSi- far more smooth and velvety. BUT - it is about 25% less brite up top and can sound less detailed at lower volume levels (night listening). I guess I'd say if the CSi3 presented sound in crisp blacks, whites and silver, then the LSiC paints a soundscape in tans, olives and gold.

It took me two hours of swapping the two centers from the top of my TV, back and forth, watching the same scenes of LOTR TT with each setup. I ended up pumping up the center channel 1.5dbs and am quite happy with the LSiC.

Best- Rob

ezc

I changed the x over to a 9 xover replaced the wires from the binding post to the board & lastly added Mi horns to the center only. Im currently happy with the preformance of my LSiC. I have been selling mi horns to my customers who have the same complaint about the center. About 8 out of 10 customes say the horns helped the dialoug & have been happy. Yes the center looks weird with the horns but it works! Heres a link with pics of my LSiC its about the middle of the page http://www.ezconnection.org/ezcsystem.htm
hope this helps!