80Hz Cross Good for CSi30?

John_Lohmann
John_Lohmann Posts: 92
in Speakers
Is an 80Hz crossover, in general, okay for a CSi30 center?
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    Try 100-120, pick what you like best
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    edited November 15
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Try 100-120, pick what you like best

    Thanks for the response.

    Based on the specs of this model, though (which I didn't include here because I figured folks would be familiar with the speaker on this forum), does 80 seem okay/right?

    Oh, wait -- just noticed that you mentioned 100 to 120. This is higher than the 80 I assumed was alright for the CSi30...are you suggesting 80 is too LOW for this speaker?
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    I assume you have a sub?
    What front speakers are you running?

    The center channel is for dialog, which is mid and upper range
    Frequencies under 100 will likely start to sound muddy
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    I assume you have a sub?
    What front speakers are you running?

    The center channel is for dialog, which is mid and upper range
    Frequencies under 100 will likely start to sound muddy

    Yes -- I'm aware the center is for dialogue. The problem is that since swapping out an old Onkyo for a new Denon X2800 AVR, the center delivery has been a bit "clipped" using the same calibration values, hence why I was asking if 80 was a good cutoff for this model Polk (I've run it at 80 in every system I've used it in since I purchased it back in '04 or so; maybe it's time for an upgrade).

    My left/right mains are RTi12s and, yes, I'm running a sub in the form of a PSW350 (which I am going to upgrade soon).
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,199
    The reason why 80 hz is basically an industry standard cut off for most speakers is the fact that at around 120hz , bass becomes OMNI direction and non local. Also bass from a subwoofer, a good quality well placed and calibrated subwoofer or woofers will provide more even bass around your room. They also have the ability to reproduce bass frequencies better then smaller driver in a not so great location in your room.

    The spec's of a speaker's low extension point is what the speaker can reproduce in a Chamber. But like I said, the location of that speaker may not be ideal to reproduce those frequencies without being lost in the room or cancelled.

    So the industry selected 80hz as most speakers , not all can reproduce this deep bass and above pretty well and the wave lengths of 80hz and above are getting shorter compared to lower frequencies.

    As advice to go higher is not a bad one, actually as said in the said advice , you will most likely get clearer voice reproduction due to the removal of possible muddy overtone, more of my words not his.
    Using a 100hz cut off in your preamp or in your case a Denon AVR, this will do actually 2 things, 1 clear up the center channel to reproduce less frequencies and allowing the ones it will to sound clearer and more open, also a added benefit is more amp power for all the connected speakers. The Less frequencies that any speaker in the system has to not reproduce will free up amp power which causes your system to be more dynamic with more headroom.

    Don't get caught up in the numbers and feel your missing something with higher crossover over points, your actually doing the complete opposite.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    mantis wrote: »
    The reason why 80 hz is basically an industry standard cut off for most speakers is the fact that at around 120hz , bass becomes OMNI direction and non local. Also bass from a subwoofer, a good quality well placed and calibrated subwoofer or woofers will provide more even bass around your room. They also have the ability to reproduce bass frequencies better then smaller driver in a not so great location in your room.

    The spec's of a speaker's low extension point is what the speaker can reproduce in a Chamber. But like I said, the location of that speaker may not be ideal to reproduce those frequencies without being lost in the room or cancelled.

    So the industry selected 80hz as most speakers , not all can reproduce this deep bass and above pretty well and the wave lengths of 80hz and above are getting shorter compared to lower frequencies.

    As advice to go higher is not a bad one, actually as said in the said advice , you will most likely get clearer voice reproduction due to the removal of possible muddy overtone, more of my words not his.
    Using a 100hz cut off in your preamp or in your case a Denon AVR, this will do actually 2 things, 1 clear up the center channel to reproduce less frequencies and allowing the ones it will to sound clearer and more open, also a added benefit is more amp power for all the connected speakers. The Less frequencies that any speaker in the system has to not reproduce will free up amp power which causes your system to be more dynamic with more headroom.

    Don't get caught up in the numbers and feel your missing something with higher crossover over points, your actually doing the complete opposite.

    Appreciate the response, Mantis...but just going by the raw specifications of this speaker (which I can post here for reference, if you'd like), does it SEEM like 80 would be okay? There are pretty meaty midrange drivers in this thing...
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,643
    The problem is that since swapping out an old Onkyo for a new Denon X2800 AVR, the center delivery has been a bit "clipped" using the same calibration values,
    You have to run the set up/calibration program any time you change a component and after that you should dial it in the rest of the way by ear and an SPL meter.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    F1nut wrote: »
    The problem is that since swapping out an old Onkyo for a new Denon X2800 AVR, the center delivery has been a bit "clipped" using the same calibration values,
    You have to run the set up/calibration program any time you change a component and after that you should dial it in the rest of the way by ear and an SPL meter.

    I don't use room correction and never did; just preference.

    I know, for example, that my RTi12 mains sound best at a 60Hz crossover so they can flex a bit of their bass abilities, but I was just wondering if 80 was "ideal" for the CSi30.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    We seem to be going in a circle here with very talented people responding
    Mantis and I are/or have been in Pro HT Hifi for many years

    Out of curiosity, what setting did the Denon X2800 give after calibration?

    As a note: when doing calibrations, turn off as much back ground ambient sounds as possible i.e HVAC, fans, and appliances, ….wife, children too😂😂
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    We seem to be going in a circle here with very talented people responding
    Mantis and I are/or have been in Pro HT Hifi for many years

    Out of curiosity, what setting did the Denon X2800 give after calibration?

    As a note: when doing calibrations, turn off as much back ground ambient sounds as possible i.e HVAC, fans, and appliances, ….wife, children too😂😂

    I never suggested any of these good people -- including yourself -- did not boast any credibility in this area; I am merely explaining how my system is set up and why I was asking for a "raw" kind of answer with regard to the CSi30 and a crossover point. Everything that's been suggested and discussed is appreciated, wholeheartedly.

    Please see above with regard to my comment to F1 -- it explains why I wouldn't know what the 2800 gave after calibration.

    I just don't prefer auto calibration routines or any kind of room correction/EQ; if we can just stick to this to move forward with suggestions, it would be very much appreciated.

    Here are some specs on the CSi30; based on these, on paper so to speak, does 80Hz seem like a decent crossover?

    https://www.crutchfield.com/S-bXkuFSBgTac/p_107CSI30B/Polk-Audio-CSi30.html
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    80, 100, 120…listen and choose

    I too run calibrations, several times, write it all down the evaluate using different movies and content to come to a happy “too my ears” medium
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,643
    Oy vey!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,114
    Suggestion - use your ears.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,523
    It's good. B)
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    F1nut wrote: »
    Oy vey!

    Thanks for your heartfelt sentiment, and Happy Hanukkah!
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    Emlyn wrote: »
    It's good. B)

    You mean 80Hz?
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    John_Lohmann wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Oy vey!

    Thanks for your heartfelt sentiment, and Happy Hanukkah!

    That’s his 1nut gender pronoun
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,523
    John_Lohmann wrote: »
    You mean 80Hz?

    Your subwoofer is good down to about 38Hz and your center speaker to about 55Hz with a -3dB measurement. I'd try a minimum of 80Hz as the crossover for the CSi30 as 60Hz would be too close to the low end of the center speaker. Personal preference if you go higher with the crossover but you also don't want to have a setting that's too close to the clean output of the subwoofer at the top end of its frequency output which for the PSW350 is only around 160Hz.

    The idea is to best blend the speakers together without leaving holes in the in-room frequency response for the system as a whole. This is why people use the auto calibration system in a receiver at least once to see where acoustic problems might be in the room. But it's also perfectly acceptable to just set a single crossover setting at 80Hz for almost any system and be happy with it.

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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    Set it 80hz……


    cvgczx1m077k.gif
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    John_Lohmann wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Oy vey!

    Thanks for your heartfelt sentiment, and Happy Hanukkah!

    That’s his 1nut gender pronoun

    I hope he enjoys his Hanukkah celebrations nonetheless!
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    Emlyn wrote: »
    John_Lohmann wrote: »
    You mean 80Hz?

    Your subwoofer is good down to about 38Hz and your center speaker to about 55Hz with a -3dB measurement. I'd try a minimum of 80Hz as the crossover for the CSi30 as 60Hz would be too close to the low end of the center speaker. Personal preference if you go higher with the crossover but you also don't want to have a setting that's too close to the clean output of the subwoofer at the top end of its frequency output which for the PSW350 is only around 160Hz.

    The idea is to best blend the speakers together without leaving holes in the in-room frequency response for the system as a whole. This is why people use the auto calibration system in a receiver at least once to see where acoustic problems might be in the room. But it's also perfectly acceptable to just set a single crossover setting at 80Hz for almost any system and be happy with it.

    Thanks very much for your response. I wouldn't keep the CSi30 at 60Hz; only the RTi12s, as they can dig somewhat deep for tower floor speakers. So I definitely wouldn't go to 60 for the center.

    As for the sub, I want to upgrade this at some point, probably to an SVS, and move the Polk to my two-channel system to get some bass up there. What would be a good step-up move from the PSW350 in the SVS line?
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,547
    edited November 20
    SB2000
    If you can swing the cash, this is a very nice sub that is being discountiued.
    https://www.svsound.com/products/sb16-ultra
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Set it 80hz……


    cvgczx1m077k.gif

    Thanks!
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    SB2000
    If you can swing the cash, this is a very nice sub that is being discountiued.
    https://www.svsound.com/products/sb16-ultra

    I appreciate the suggestion and link; yeah, that's a bit out of budget. I was thinking more in the range of the PB-2000 or perhaps a little higher...


    https://www.crutchfield.com/p_946PB2KPBA/SVS-PB-2000-Pro-Black-Ash.html?tp=187
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,547
    The SB 2000 pro is $700 at SVS
    https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000-pro
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    The SB 2000 pro is $700 at SVS
    https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000-pro

    Thanks again, Pit - the thing is, isn't that the SEALED version of that sub? I was looking at the PORTED ("P") model because I assumed it would yield more slam...

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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,547
    Yes it is sealed. Sealed IMHO has better accurate bass without boom and bloat or hearing port noise.
    PB 2000 is the same price at both Crutchfield and SVS.
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  • John_Lohmann
    John_Lohmann Posts: 92
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Yes it is sealed. Sealed IMHO has better accurate bass without boom and bloat or hearing port noise.
    PB 2000 is the same price at both Crutchfield and SVS.

    Thank you.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,299
    Put it this way
    Home theater ported sub
    Music sealed sub
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,432
    Here's a monkey wrench....

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    Now I do have gobs of power supporting the speakers and I've gone back and forth with Large settings on ALL speakers however having only the mains set to large gives me a much cleaner sound.

    Dialogue is crystal clear from the LSiM706.

    I might add, it's not a bad idea to use the AVR's calibration, at least to see what kind of base setting your room prefers, then you can tweak it from there to your liking.

    I have two sealed subs, two 15" drivers each, if I want to (and I have lol), rattle the plates in my kitchen cabinets and knocked trophies off the shelves in my office.

    I've read valuable advice with every post in this thread, and I will echo, try all settings listed by the members here, and see what sounds best to you. By the way, I dig the RTi12's, I have four A9's in my set up B)
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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