Help with Understanding How Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" Work on New Denon X2800...
John_Lohmann
Posts: 71
I recently replaced an old Onkyo 605 with a Denon AVR-X2800 but I am utterly confused with regard to how these new "upmixers" work in conjunction with my 5.1 setup (which includes RTi12 mains) because I am still so familiar with the previous Dolby Pro Logic II matrixing system of the old amp. Can anyone with experience assist with this?
I think I have the functionality of the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers down (though there isn't any confirmation from Denon or some others I consulted with on it, as it relates to my 5.1 setup).
From what I am being told by other seasoned Denon owners, the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers do NOT affect 5.1 (or 7.1, in my case) soundtracks on discs in a 5.1 system because there isn't anything to "upmix," per se -- however, they can be left engaged when playing all content so that 2.0 mono and stereo tracks (whether Dolby or DTS encoded) are steered properly and automatically (I don't have to push the green MOVIE sound mode button each time a different format with a different channel count is played). As such, all content I play through the 2800 displays like this on the front panel:
Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD/Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Stereo: "Dolby Surround"
DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS-HD Master Audio: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS 2.0: "DTS Neural:X"
DTS:X: "DTS:X"
Now, before I get into the reservations I have regarding what's going on here, let me briefly express my concerns about DTS:X -- from my understanding, this is the DTS equivalent of Dolby's Atmos, thus it requires overhead channels for full immersion. If this is the case, why do DTS:X soundtracks played back on my 5.1 system show as "DTS:X" on the front panel of my 2800 and not as the core DTS-HD MA track? I have the "DTS Neural:X" SURROUND PARAMETER (in the main setup menu under the AUDIO section) turned off, as I assumed this controlled DTS audio like the "Speaker Virtualizer" controlled Dolby content, but it doesn't seem to make a difference -- all DTS:X tracks are displayed as DTS:X on the Denon's front panel. This isn't a "problem," but I am just curious as to why this is happening with a 5.1 system and with DTS Virtualizer and Neural:X turned off. Shouldn't these be played as the core Master Audio tracks?
In relation to that, I have confirmed that the Speaker Virtualizer must indeed be turned ON in order for Atmos signals to display as "Dolby Atmos" on the front of the AVR (again, with a 5.1 setup); with the Virtualizer OFF, the TrueHD core is processed and shown on the front panel as "DTHD." I understand this, as the Virtualizer is instructing the AVR to mimic overhead channels, and as such, the Atmos signal is engaged. However, here is my question: does leaving the Virtualizer ON when watching discs WITHOUT Atmos "mess with" the 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks on discs when the upmixers are also engaged? In other words, I have read that the Virtualizer works in conjunction with the Dolby Surround upmixer, so if I am leaving the DSU on with all non-Atmos content and the Virtualizer is turned on, is this affecting the 5.1 tracks in any way?
Some have said that the Virtualizer and the upmixers would be working against each other if they're engaged at the same time based on what they do, yet others (including Denon) claim the Dolby Surround upmixer definitely works in conjunction with the Virtualizer for non-Atmos stuff.
There's also a strange thing going on with regard to the way the display of the 2800 is reacting after we watch discs on our Panny UHD BD deck -- during playback, the AVR reads (as I stated above) "DD" or "DTS" or whatever the incoming signal is, plus the upmixer mode (DSurr or Neural:X), but when I stop playback fully on the Panasonic (by pressing STOP twice on the remote), the Denon drops the "+Upmixer" designation on the display and just shows the core track that was being processed (for example "Dolby THD" or "DTS-HD." This DOESN'T happen when playing SDR (standard dynamic range) content from DVDs -- only when watching Blu-rays or UHD Blu-rays (so when I stop playback of a DVD, the display continues to read "DD + DSurr" or whatever it may be.
Does anyone know why the Denons behave like this, or is something wrong with my setup? I have a suspicion it's connected to the engagement of the upmixers with all 5.1 content (so maybe they ARE actually affecting 5.1 tracks when engaged on my 5.1 setup) but I can't be sure.
Comments
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Thanks Clip...are you suggesting member Mantis is better suited to address this? -
I think he may be the only one who can.
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@F1nut , please activate the decoder ring.
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@F1nut , please activate the decoder ring.
Decoder ring says it got a headache reading that and cussed me out.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
May I ask what you gentlemen are referring to with the "decoder ring" statements?
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No you may not.
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The manual explains what the available sound modes are. Basically there are two main competitors in home theater surround, Dolby and DTS. Some 4K UHD discs contain a DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack without Atmos because Atmos is a Dolby product. DTS:X is similar to Dolby Atmos. Some 4K UHD discs contain Dolby HD Master audio or Dolby Atmos soundtracks with 5.1 or 7.1 plus the height channels. If you set your receiver to "Auto" decoding it'll decode whatever comes out of the disc player. For example, if you have a DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack or DTS:X selected on a disc the player will transmit that digital stream over HDMI to the receiver and the receiver will process that down to 5.1 speakers in a 5.1 system. If you are playing a DTS:X soundtrack that will be what the receiver picks up. DTS:X is not part of the upmixer functions just as Dolby Atmos isn't. DTS:X is not as widely used as Atmos but there some great 4K discs available with DTS:X included.
The "upmixers" can be used to take a 5.1 or lower soundtrack off a 4K, Blu Ray, or DVD and simulate a type of 3D environment using all of the speakers that are available such as 5.1, 7.1, or either type plus height effects speakers for a simulated surround type experience. Audio processing is much more powerful now than in the Prologic days because of much more powerful processing chips. Some people like using the upmixers. Some don't. In my 5.2.2 system I tend to leave the system in Auro3D mode when not playing 4K discs or listening to stereo music.
Here's a video on a few good DTS:X discs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbO31I99vQk -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
Because you haven't taken a turing test yet. -
Hello and Welcome to the forum.
Denon's up mixer is very similar to many brands on the market. Marantz uses the exact same technology in their line up.
So to understand how they work, let me make it simple. A Stereo signal comes in from whatever you're listening to or watching. An up mixer will take that signal and cue off certain we will call them flags, and make logical decisions on where to place certain sounds in a give stereo mix to a 5 channel system. What this does is gives you a sense of space and depth of a 5.1 recording but it's not as good as an actual 5 channel mix.
If you have a Dolby Surround mix which is 4 channels, it will logically pull cues or flags from the signal and create a center channel. Things that appear in both left and right IN PHASE will come out of the center channel making things more centered for center imaging in music and more locked to screen action in a movie situation.
Pro Logic is another format that can be UP MIXED. This will take a MONO surround mix and logically make sorta left and right discrete channel surround information. Again this isn't a perfect science but it's nice in many cases and can get you little more involved in whatever you're listening to.
Denon and Marantz don't do anything actually special per se, everyone uses basically the same technology just with a slight flare on who is presenting it. None of it's better or worse, actually comes down to personal preferecne.
Many years ago many companies came up with a 5 channel stereo .Which takes a 2 channel mix and creates a room filling 5 channel mix out of 2 channels, out of phase surround speakers and mono like things into the center or shared signal left and right if you will into the center channel.
Notice how I left the subwoofer out right? I'm sure you're thinking I missed it. NOPE, the Subwoofer in an unmixed situation will still play the crossover settings you created during setup and IF there is any LFE information in any of the signal before they are up mixed , you still get your bass as intended.
So you mentioned not much to get out of up mixers with a 5.1 system huh, well I beg to differ. These new up mixers can kinda create some Atmos LIKE sounds. They play with Phase to make things sound like they are higher , wider and deeper. Maybe further in the back , deeper in the front, you get the idea.
So do I use up mixers? Sometimes on regular TV watching. I have an Integra DRX8.4 Flagship AVR and it's pretty stacked with abilities, which I use at times. Sometimes I will play music in an up mixer, sometimes it's great and sometimes it sucks. You be the judge of that.
A few words from the kinda wise, Set your system up properly. Make sure it's calibrated correctly. Before that make sure your speaker layout is as close to correct as you can get it. Use 2 subwoofers, this will make a nice difference if you have more than 1 seat in the room. Use room treatments the best you can. 30% coverage is nice and comfortable. I like AUTO decoding meaning listening to things as intended but it's not a RULE of mine. Most of the time listening to things this way , you get to hear what your system can do in all different situations instead of always using ALL THE SPEAKERS you purchased. All the channels have a job to do and when they are called upon, they do their job. If they don't have any info, that's ok, they are not supposed to.
Playing around with UPMIXERS can be fun frustrating dumb and exciting all at the same time.
If you need any more info, just let me know I can go as deep as you like.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
John_Lohmann wrote: »May I ask what you gentlemen are referring to with the "decoder ring" statements?
We have an older Audiophile like crowd in here. They like to joke around a bit. It's harmless.
Not as many Home Theater guys in here that actually understand it deeply. They are just joking around as your opening post went a bit deep on subjects that do not come up as often in here. It's all good, I'm not the only one in here with Theater Knowledge.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Appreciate it.Hello and Welcome to the forum.Denon's up mixer is very similar to many brands on the market. Marantz uses the exact same technology in their line up.
I totally understand the tech behind these things -- they're all bundled with AVRs that have DTS:X and Dolby Atmos decoding onboard, and these are basically the evolution of Dolby's Pro Logic (II) and DTS' Neo:6.So to understand how they work, let me make it simple. A Stereo signal comes in from whatever you're listening to or watching. An up mixer will take that signal and cue off certain we will call them flags, and make logical decisions on where to place certain sounds in a give stereo mix to a 5 channel system. What this does is gives you a sense of space and depth of a 5.1 recording but it's not as good as an actual 5 channel mix.
If you have a Dolby Surround mix which is 4 channels, it will logically pull cues or flags from the signal and create a center channel. Things that appear in both left and right IN PHASE will come out of the center channel making things more centered for center imaging in music and more locked to screen action in a movie situation.
Pro Logic is another format that can be UP MIXED. This will take a MONO surround mix and logically make sorta left and right discrete channel surround information. Again this isn't a perfect science but it's nice in many cases and can get you little more involved in whatever you're listening to.
Denon and Marantz don't do anything actually special per se, everyone uses basically the same technology just with a slight flare on who is presenting it. None of it's better or worse, actually comes down to personal preferecne.
Many years ago many companies came up with a 5 channel stereo .Which takes a 2 channel mix and creates a room filling 5 channel mix out of 2 channels, out of phase surround speakers and mono like things into the center or shared signal left and right if you will into the center channel.
Notice how I left the subwoofer out right? I'm sure you're thinking I missed it. NOPE, the Subwoofer in an unmixed situation will still play the crossover settings you created during setup and IF there is any LFE information in any of the signal before they are up mixed , you still get your bass as intended.
I totally understand all that; been using Pro Logic II in my previous AVR for almost two decades, letting it matrix two-channel content, whether stereo or mono.So you mentioned not much to get out of up mixers with a 5.1 system huh, well I beg to differ. These new up mixers can kinda create some Atmos LIKE sounds. They play with Phase to make things sound like they are higher , wider and deeper. Maybe further in the back , deeper in the front, you get the idea.
So do I use up mixers? Sometimes on regular TV watching. I have an Integra DRX8.4 Flagship AVR and it's pretty stacked with abilities, which I use at times. Sometimes I will play music in an up mixer, sometimes it's great and sometimes it sucks. You be the judge of that.
That's why I have been asking, because that is DEFINITELY not how it was explained to me -- unless the SPEAKER VIRTUALIZER is turned ON via the main setup menu, these upmixers (as I understand it) will NOT affect 5.1 tracks on a 5.1 system because there's nothing to "upmix" to, per se. It WILL affect 2.0 tracks in that the upmixers will take them and send them to the appropriate spots in a system (i.e. dialogue will come from the center, et al).Playing around with UPMIXERS can be fun frustrating dumb and exciting all at the same time.
I don't want to worry about playing around with them; I want a set-and-forget approach because I don't have overhead channels and just want two-channel content to be matrixed automatically to the appropriate channels.If you need any more info, just let me know I can go as deep as you like.
Thanks.
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John_Lohmann wrote: »
Because you haven't taken a turing test yet.
And what exactly is THAT? -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
He's just mucking with you. -
Someone was actually putting in some work here last night! @mantis
Thanks for your thoughtful response to a question that many are afraid to ask.
For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
The manual explains what the available sound modes are. Basically there are two main competitors in home theater surround, Dolby and DTS. Some 4K UHD discs contain a DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack without Atmos because Atmos is a Dolby product. DTS:X is similar to Dolby Atmos. Some 4K UHD discs contain Dolby HD Master audio or Dolby Atmos soundtracks with 5.1 or 7.1 plus the height channels. If you set your receiver to "Auto" decoding it'll decode whatever comes out of the disc player. For example, if you have a DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack or DTS:X selected on a disc the player will transmit that digital stream over HDMI to the receiver and the receiver will process that down to 5.1 speakers in a 5.1 system. If you are playing a DTS:X soundtrack that will be what the receiver picks up. DTS:X is not part of the upmixer functions just as Dolby Atmos isn't. DTS:X is not as widely used as Atmos but there some great 4K discs available with DTS:X included.
The "upmixers" can be used to take a 5.1 or lower soundtrack off a 4K, Blu Ray, or DVD and simulate a type of 3D environment using all of the speakers that are available such as 5.1, 7.1, or either type plus height effects speakers for a simulated surround type experience. Audio processing is much more powerful now than in the Prologic days because of much more powerful processing chips. Some people like using the upmixers. Some don't. In my 5.2.2 system I tend to leave the system in Auro3D mode when not playing 4K discs or listening to stereo music.
Here's a video on a few good DTS:X discs:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbO31I99vQk
Thank you; I totally understand all of that. My primary concern was what these upmixers do in a 5.1 system when they're engaged and you're listening to a 5.1 track. -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
He's just mucking with you.
Thank you; understood. -
Someone was actually putting in some work here last night! @mantis
Thanks for your thoughtful response to a question that many are afraid to ask.
I appreciate Mantis' reply...but what is it that many are afraid to ask? -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
What the Magic 8 ball says.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
I appreciate Mantis' reply...but what is it that many are afraid to ask?
The question(s) you asked at the beginning. I think most of us just play our movies along without digging to deep into all those complex AVR settings (which have grown considerably over the years). After initial setup, I set mine to auto format decode and let it rip. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. My current Sony doesn't even show what format is being played, at least not without getting down on hands/knees in front of the receiver with a magnifying glass.
For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
LMGTFY -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
What the Magic 8 ball says.
What does it say? -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
I appreciate Mantis' reply...but what is it that many are afraid to ask?
The question(s) you asked at the beginning. I think most of us just play our movies along without digging to deep into all those complex AVR settings (which have grown considerably over the years). After initial setup, I set mine to auto format decode and let it rip. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. My current Sony doesn't even show what format is being played, at least not without getting down on hands/knees in front of the receiver with a magnifying glass.
Yeah, the reason I didn't choose another Onkyo was because they don't show the signal being played or decoded, just the input name and volume level. I think that's ridiculous, but everyone has different priorities.
I just wanted to know how these upmixing algorithms work on a setup like mine, because, in 2024, I seem to be one of the only human beings still running a five-channel surround setup without 11-plus overhead speakers for Atmos. -
John_Lohmann wrote: »
LMGTFY
What does that stand for? -
Have you heard of this thing called Google? Its been around for a little while.John_Lohmann wrote: »
LMGTFY
What does that stand for?
For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Have you heard of this thing called Google? Its been around for a little while.John_Lohmann wrote: »
LMGTFY
What does that stand for?
Why don't you just tell me? Seems like it would have only taken a moment compared to what you typed... -
Seriously? Highlight, right click, search! That's how we work around here.
It stands for Let Me Google That For You.
Ok, lesson over. From here out, you are expected to search on your own.
For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
