My stereo room is coming along - new lights
Comments
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The front half of the room is deader than the rear. The rear is very diffused but you can’t see it. The panels are 8.5” thick each so it gives an illusion of being close to the rear of the speakers. Moving the speaker forward changes the perspective of my listening and makes me feel like I’m in a bubble of sound......I prefer looking from afar and I prefer a stage like effect. The bass is linear, if I remove treatments from the front of the room where the sound is generated, I find it to smear the stage and tightness of image not to response I end up with destructive comb filtering.
I am going to go WAY out on a limb here before you even respond.
Thanks, BTW for not taking me the wrong way. You and I can learn from each other on this, as well as others, just through casual conversation....
Have you ever considered to remove about 80-90% of the said treatment you have in the room, along with the excess items.......THEN moved said speakers to a new position (sub out of the equation) and dial them in to exacting standards? I see you have the Digi-Pas. I would assume you have the laser blah, blah, blah along with other tools to dial things in. I would also assume that you know how to dial things in to precision. well beyond the norm.
Here is my ultimate question....
I know it will be a chit ton of work. I know you have had correspondence from your audiophile group that reinforces your (and their(s)) belief that you have hit the pinnacle of audio nirvana. What I am saying here is that......well...., I would introduce the idea that there *may* be better. You will never know unless you challenge yourself and not rely on others to "tell" you what may or may not be your own pinnacle of audio nirvana.
I'll leave it at this for tonight. When you get home and have a chance to respond? Just think about it. That's all I am asking you to consider. Nothing more, nothing less.
Have a great evening. This was said with the utmost of respect, FYI.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hey Tom
I’ll just do a quick response of the cuff.
First, your comments are 101% appreciated. By no means is this system perfect.
But perfection is not what we are after, it’s the goosebump and enjoyment.
No use in searching for the perfect FRC or the most optimal use of space if it changes the dynamics of the listening session or shortens the playlist.
But I will agree, there is likely a better position of the m2…
The short answer is, I have become less and less in search of the absolute sound and more just flipping the switch on and enjoying what I have no business enjoying.
The more I tweak, the less music I listen to.
But you are absolutely correct, ottoman in front… pull the speakers, etc… there is room for improvement..Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Thank you, sir.
I do mean no disrespect. I know full well that things are what they are. Especially when it comes to real estate in a system. Lawd, knows we could all use more... (That's why I am building a new room)
I have just seen your journey take so many turns and at this point? I believe you can take a few steps back with the gear you currently have now. There is a big difference between what you used to have and now. That's my opinion and my opinion only.
Experiment with the plethora of things you currently have (wife and family willing) and go from there.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Looks way over treated from here, but the fact that you have $2k+ in sconces it seems about right.
I can relate that the fun of building something can get in the way of end goal performance.Polk: / SDA-CRS / SDA-1C / M-10B / M-7B / M-5 / M-5jr / RTA-11T / LSIM703 / LSIM704 / LSIM706 / RTI8 / CSI3 / CSI5 / RTI4 / RTI-A5 / CSI-A6 / RC80i / RC85i / RC6s / PSW300 / Atrium6 / Atrium4 / About a dozen pair of Atrium45 lol. -
So, do you charge admission? I'd love to hear that system!!! Wow!Sources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp |
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Ditch the Magicos and put a pair of Polk L800 in that room instead.
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Man, my "audio room" has no AC and no heat and is full of tools and derelict vehicles!
But at least the stereo kicks ****!
A whopping 100 watts per channel out of a late 90's Kenwood stereo receiver powering a pair of KLH 20's and using a 3.5mm headphone jack as an input source! Sometimes it needs percussive maintenance, too!
That's the definition of hifi right there!
I dunno, the room looks good, a bit cluttered like some have said. I like the sconces with the Edison bulbs but I'd think they'd be glaringly bright in the Shades of Gray color scheme of the décor. They do cast some shadows, don't they? If you're not watching a screen in there, no big deal I guess but I feel like the glare would cause eye strain for me after a little bit.
But, hey, not my room...or my circus or my monkeys! If you're happy with it, more power to you!Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
Man, my "audio room" has no AC and no heat and is full of tools and derelict vehicles!
But at least the stereo kicks ****!
A whopping 100 watts per channel out of a late 90's Kenwood stereo receiver powering a pair of KLH 20's and using a 3.5mm headphone jack as an input source! Sometimes it needs percussive maintenance, too!
That's the definition of hifi right there!
I dunno, the room looks good, a bit cluttered like some have said. I like the sconces with the Edison bulbs but I'd think they'd be glaringly bright in the Shades of Gray color scheme of the décor. They do cast some shadows, don't they? If you're not watching a screen in there, no big deal I guess but I feel like the glare would cause eye strain for me after a little bit.
But, hey, not my room...or my circus or my monkeys! If you're happy with it, more power to you!
I have remote control of all lights esp cans
I turn them off or dim them for listeningMagico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Looks way over treated from here, but the fact that you have $2k+ in sconces it seems about right.
I can relate that the fun of building something can get in the way of end goal performance.
Looks.
But doesn’t sound it.
Diffusers to rear.
It sounds intimate which is my preference.
And bass is incredible.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
So, do you charge admission? I'd love to hear that system!!! Wow!
Thx man.
It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
I don't think perfect exists. -
Heard near everything in the Dallas area. There is no perfect room.
Heck, I don’t even know what’s the ideal reproduction.
Just whatever sounds good and gets you excited to listen to music, that’s about as good as you get.
Tweaking is fun as an audiophile, it’s a hobby.
When I think of my system, I don’t picture a carbon fiber speaker or the two turntables. Or the opus. I see a warm sonic signature with an extremely dense imaging recreation. Full body. Linear bass. I think of my system and I see a singer.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Heard near everything in the Dallas area.
Such a bold statement. Ever consider some audiophiles like to not be known. My assumption would be that the best of the best is not on your radar by design.2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables -
You are right to bring that up, you are correct in hindsight. There are some that I have been made aware of that do not participate or invite others to listen, a product of being a high profile and high net worth individuals. For example, I have not yet heard your system and by all counts, parameters, and measure - you probably have one of the best systems in the area.
I think what I meant was I have heard near everything that is available to hear in the Dallas area.
I do believe that over the course of 7 years, I have met or conversed with most owners of large or complex systems in the metroplex of individuals who are willing to engage outsiders. But yes, there are still many more who remain under wraps. I have heard of mega systems with 6 subs and large flagship speakers who remain elusive within the area.. but they have remained outside the club's reach because of privacy preferences (even if the dealer has led me to them).
A better statement would have been - I believe I have heard or been exposed to a larger # of big and complex systems in the metroplex than anyone else locally, except maybe Skip.
But yes - you are correct. I retract that initial statement.Post edited by Joey_V onMagico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
The lights and the room look great, I can appreciate the quality of their products for sure!
This created more questions for me than answers and I was hoping you had more insight?
There appears to be a 20db difference between the low frequencies and high frequencies and no response above 15khz?
Just trying to understand what you have going on here. I know when I ran DIRAC measurements my system had a similar slant but no where this pronounced.
A system that is +/- 6db in anechoic is very good. +/- 10db is still pretty good especially since you're taking a snapshot of max peak and max trough. These FRC are helpful in my opinion in the bass response, where there can be massive peaks and valleys. The fact that the room is able to handle a near linear response is quite a good feat.
I would say though that typically, the response of a room typically starts to shelve down as the frequency trends upwards.
Below are room responses of Jim Austin and Michael Fremer.
In addition, here are 2 plots. Top is Wilson Alexia Anechoic. Bottom is an example of Wilson Alexia In Room, JA Stereophile.
That said, I do feel like I have a dip in 400-500hz, I saw it on the response curve as I was testing live.
Overall, while the system FRC is not +/- 3db, I think it is pretty respectable and I'm pretty happy with it.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Sometimes I focus so much on the gear that I neglect the room.
Hey, Joey. Do you have any other available closets nearby? I would clear out much of what I see. I would also bring the speakers out about 3-4 feet and lose all of the gear/ottoman/LP's in front of the speakers.
I am offering you some constructive criticism here and I am in no way trying to bring you down or be, "that guy".
Think of it like this. If that room were a speaker, much of the volume would be taken up by the items within the room, reducing the available volume. You have great gear, no doubt. You have what appears to be a great sized room that is dedicated to nothing but audio ( and lights ). If you were to upgrade a crossover within a speaker and the new components take up such vast real estate within the speaker, it eventually affects the volume, which, in turn, affects the frequency output of said speaker.
One of the things that I have experienced in my own personal audio journey is that volume (within reason) is one of the greatest aspects of an audio reproductive effort.
I do hope that you take what I have to say as a friend and not just some unfounded comments by "Joe Schmoe" off the internet that just wants to bully or degrade what you have for no reason. It is, however, something that I thought I would mention for your thought.
With that said, I personally think you should start re-experimenting with the excessive amount of panels in the room. They may have worked well with past systems to clean up the hash/grit or whatever it was you were experiencing but that sure is a lot of treatment for one room. The measurements even confirm that.
Anyhoo, rock on with yo' bad self and tell me to pound sand, if you want. I am just commenting on your current room setup as I see it. There are many things in this hobby that cannot be explained and your room could sound like God's gift to the audio world. I don't know, because I haven't heard it.
All I know is that if you want an insurance claim? Leave the key under your back doormat and I'll make sure the family isn't woken up. 😉😀 Let's plan on next Saturday. 😉
FWIW. Peace brother.
Tom
Alright, just finished work and resting prior to listening.
- Appreciate the constructive criticism. For sure man, I can now see that there is quite a bit of stuff between my ears and directly infront of me. I will see what i can do to clean it up.
- You are also correct, room volume is taken by the equipment... but I also believe that the deep bass traps do the opposite and create a sinkhole effect, thereby making the room appear larger to the sound waves.
- I will experiment with the panels. Good idea to remove some and reposition speakers, just mark the floor so I can go back.
- I am about 13'1" from the tweeter of the speaker (tweeter to forehead). I tried sitting forward today and I didn't like the sound. Felt more diffuse and less concrete to me. The stage widened though.
- Funny comment regarding the key under the mat.
- I look forward to seeing how your room develops. By all measure, your room should be better than mine.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
The one thing I will say... is that if I get some good time with a top shelf headphone - like say my plans for the HE1 does pan out. The headphones will give me a better barometer if the timbre, tone, and FR of a speaker system is appropriate. Then I will really know if I'm on the right track or completely off the reservation. It'll be a good practice and lesson.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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I've heard the Wilson Chronosonic XVX with the Dan D'Agostino relentless monoblocks and DCS digital source. Yes, it did sound very good, but not perfect. I also heard upgraded Apogee Diva's actively bi- amped with audio research 610T monoblocks powering the midrange/tweeter and krell 750 monoblocks bass panel, that system did some things better than the chronosonic and relentless and vise versa. -
I've heard the Wilson Chronosonic XVX with the Dan D'Agostino relentless monoblocks and DCS digital source. Yes, it did sound very good, but not perfect. I also heard upgraded Apogee Diva's actively bi- amped with audio research 610T monoblocks powering the midrange/tweeter and krell 750 monoblocks bass panel, that system did some things better than the chronosonic and relentless and vise versa.
I think one of the best systems I’ve heard was the Stenheim 5se.
It does things that I have not heard from the big WilsonsMagico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
With all of the professional athletes in DFW (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL), I'd bet there are quite a few very high-end 'off the radar' systems out there. Those guys very likely just hired someone to put things together, but still...
You are right to bring that up, you are correct in hindsight. There are some that I have been made aware of that do not participate or invite others to listen, a product of being a high profile and high net worth individuals. For example, I have not yet heard your system and by all counts, parameters, and measure - you probably have one of the best systems in the area.
I think what I meant was I have heard near everything that is available to hear in the Dallas area.
I do believe that over the course of 7 years, I have met or conversed with most owners of large or complex systems in the metroplex of individuals who are willing to engage outsiders. But yes, there are still many more who remain under wraps. I have heard of mega systems with 6 subs and large flagship speakers who remain elusive within the area.. but they have remained outside the club's reach because of privacy preferences (even if the dealer has led me to them).
A better statement would have been - I believe I have heard or been exposed to a larger # of big and complex systems in the metroplex than anyone else locally, except maybe Skip.
But yes - you are correct. I retract that initial statement."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
With all of the professional athletes in DFW (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL), I'd bet there are quite a few very high-end 'off the radar' systems out there. Those guys very likely just hired someone to put things together, but still...
You are right to bring that up, you are correct in hindsight. There are some that I have been made aware of that do not participate or invite others to listen, a product of being a high profile and high net worth individuals. For example, I have not yet heard your system and by all counts, parameters, and measure - you probably have one of the best systems in the area.
I think what I meant was I have heard near everything that is available to hear in the Dallas area.
I do believe that over the course of 7 years, I have met or conversed with most owners of large or complex systems in the metroplex of individuals who are willing to engage outsiders. But yes, there are still many more who remain under wraps. I have heard of mega systems with 6 subs and large flagship speakers who remain elusive within the area.. but they have remained outside the club's reach because of privacy preferences (even if the dealer has led me to them).
A better statement would have been - I believe I have heard or been exposed to a larger # of big and complex systems in the metroplex than anyone else locally, except maybe Skip.
But yes - you are correct. I retract that initial statement.
I do wonder about how prevalent high end systems are with mega rich or athletes. I bet it’s more integrated whole house systems than a 2 channel single chair scenario. I think they don’t fit our classification of a curated system, with that much money and lack of time, it’s likely a dealer or designer generated set up.
When we visited the M9 system in Dallas Rhapsody, I was told that mega rich folks send (or fly) their designer to check out the speaker. And these purchases were made with the design of the space in mind rather than sound attributes.
Regardless, in all likelihood, a system put together by a designer rather than a hobbyist will yield minimal learning to further the understanding and knowledge of a curious audio enthusiast. I would postulate that we would learn more from a $2000 system by a person who is more in tune with the room and equipment than a $500,000 system by a house designer. So the number of athlete or celebrity systems in the area is likely non contributory to the pursuit and understanding of the audio arts.Post edited by Joey_V onMagico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Todd’s system in Dallas probably has the best chance to be the best sounding of known systems in the area. He is a fanatic. When I toured his place, I had never seen azimuth data on floors scribbled with a sharpie on blue tape across various points in the listening room.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/todds-ag-trio-g3-system-its-about-time.36813/Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
I do wonder about how prevalent high end systems are with mega rich or athletes. I bet it’s more integrated whole house systems than a 2 channel single chair scenario. I think they don’t fit our classification of a curated system, with that much money and lack of time, it’s likely a dealer or designer generated set up.
When we visited the M9 system in Dallas Rhapsody, I was told that mega rich folks send (or fly) their designer to check out the speaker. And these purchases were made with the design of the space in mind rather than sound attributes.
Regardless, in all likelihood, a system put together by a designer rather than a hobbyist will yield minimal learning to further the understanding and knowledge of a curious audio enthusiast. I would postulate that we would learn more from a $2000 system by a person who is more in tune with the room and equipment than a $500,000 system by a house designer. So the number of athlete or celebrity systems in the area is likely non contributory to the pursuit and understanding of the audio arts.
Based on what I've seen and learned from being around my sister in-law, and her ultra wealthy friends/homes, whole house systems and integration is far more common for the ultra-wealthy.
My sister in-law doesn't think twice about buying a $30,000 purse. But half that amount, even on a whole system, and she would laugh you out of the room.
Even if you have the money, there has to be a passion behind getting into that level of equipment and dedicated rooms.
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Perfect will never exist with reproduced music. Human advancements in reproductive audio is still pushing the envelope but there should be no illusion that we, as humans, have (or will ever have) the technology to reproduce real sound. The best approximation thereof is all that we could hope for.
Case in point. When was the last time you heard a reproduced lightning strike hit with the same speed and visceral impact as a real one? You haven't and you never will. So, an approximation it is.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Case in point. When was the last time you heard a reproduced lightning strike hit with the same speed and visceral impact as a real one? You haven't and you never will. So, an approximation it is.
Tom
I dunno, man...I have made @lightman1 near wet himself a few times with things like lightning strikes or sniper shots or some other jump scare moment in the theater.
But then, the amount of dynamics in the theater system is a whole other can of worms when compared to 2 channel listening.
It also helps to have 6-18" subs, 8- 15" midbass drivers, 13-8" midrange drivers, and 13 tweeters in one room.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
I've sat in it, it's legit!!Case in point. When was the last time you heard a reproduced lightning strike hit with the same speed and visceral impact as a real one? You haven't and you never will. So, an approximation it is.
Tom
I dunno, man...I have made @lightman1 near wet himself a few times with things like lightning strikes or sniper shots or some other jump scare moment in the theater.
But then, the amount of dynamics in the theater system is a whole other can of worms when compared to 2 channel listening.
It also helps to have 6-18" subs, 8- 15" midbass drivers, 13-8" midrange drivers, and 13 tweeters in one room.
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@Joey_V, is all your equipment hooked into dedicated 20amp lines?Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156 -
Case in point. When was the last time you heard a reproduced lightning strike hit with the same speed and visceral impact as a real one? You haven't and you never will. So, an approximation it is.
Tom
I dunno, man...I have made @lightman1 near wet himself a few times with things like lightning strikes or sniper shots or some other jump scare moment in the theater.
But then, the amount of dynamics in the theater system is a whole other can of worms when compared to 2 channel listening.
It also helps to have 6-18" subs, 8- 15" midbass drivers, 13-8" midrange drivers, and 13 tweeters in one room.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
I've sat in it, it's legit!!
There have been upgrades since the last time you were here, Ivan. Just sayin'...
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Case in point. When was the last time you heard a reproduced lightning strike hit with the same speed and visceral impact as a real one? You haven't and you never will. So, an approximation it is.
Tom
I dunno, man...I have made @lightman1 near wet himself a few times with things like lightning strikes or sniper shots or some other jump scare moment in the theater.
But then, the amount of dynamics in the theater system is a whole other can of worms when compared to 2 channel listening.
It also helps to have 6-18" subs, 8- 15" midbass drivers, 13-8" midrange drivers, and 13 tweeters in one room.
Dang bro....Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
