New Denon and Marantz AVR's

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    Emlyn wrote: »
    Looks like the Cinema 50 is the replacement model for the SR6015 except it now has 8K HDMI inputs all around and four subwoofer pre-outs and a few hundred dollars on the price tag. I suspect the Cinema lineup still sounds the same as my Marantz SR7011 which I've had in service for a few years now. They don't appear to be clearing out the SRXX15 models to make room for the new lineup.
    I noticed that right away. Marantz pricing is very high especially if you compare them to the almost exactly same spec Denon models. Denon is the clear value winner here and IF they sound remarkably similar or IF Denon actually sounds better( Subjective ) than the only real value buying the Marantz over the Denon is looks.

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I agree the Marantz facelift is nice, and the Cinema 50 is visually appealing. However, I still think Marantz engineers should be able to eek out more performance from these new AVRs and processors.

    Their performance specifications measurements/numbers just aren't where they should be for the year 2023 and the price being asked, IMO. But people are still buying them so they probably see little incentive to dedicate a lot of resources towards improvement.


    Denon models also went up in price. These are things I noticed. Marantz doesn't even have a flagship 11 channel internal amp model anymore. You have to go separates at that point and then you're jumping madly in price. Marantz is holding my attention over Denon only due to looks as of right now. If you where to go side by side in spec's, most people would go directly to Denon.
    Honeslty , Denon receivers sound fantastic. I just did a theater with a X4700H and man did it sound good. Plenty of dynamics , very clear and detailed. Impressive to say the least.
    Another thing I think most of us American minded ( Like Horsepower ) , we tend to shoot for way more then we actually need. Nothing wrong with it , I have been a flagship AVR owner most of my life. I don't listen at reference volumes and my current room isn't that big 15x21.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Where is all this 8K stuff? With the exception of my oppo 205 spinning 4K disc's I don't get any 4K stuff through my Dish box with the exception of the super bowl or something like that.


    Honestly it's all about the gaming consoles is where these new models shine. They don't require a correction box as the chip sets on the last year models where not up to snuff.
    I could care less about anything 8k
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    dpowell wrote: »
    The Marantz definitely beats the Denon in looks.


    I so agree. But the Denon's look fine if you look through 20 + years of style. They could use an update.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    edited January 2023
    Arcam wins in both looks and performance…


    Subjective but I hate setting up Arcam preamps or AVR's. I'm not a fan. Not to mention you have to add external amps if you go past 7 channels. Dollar for dollar , Arcam is way more money.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    edited January 2023
    Arcam wins in both looks and performance…
    Reliability and difficult setup seems to be the Arcam's achiles heel. ;)

    Looks are probably the most subjective. Personally, I rank the three in terms of aesthetic appeal as follows:

    1. Marantz
    2. Denon
    3. Arcam

    Arcam is 3rd for me because I dislike the silver knobs and prefer a much smaller display or a display that can be covered during movies. Again, its a personal preference.
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    Marantz doesn't even have a flagship 11 channel internal amp model anymore. You have to go separates at that point and then you're jumping madly in price.

    This is what bit me in the butt although I knew it going in to the purchase. My saving grace was buying in at the used price point on the Marantz 7704. It still had me on the hunt for a good used power amp with at least 6 channels to add to the sunfire cinema grande 5x400. Fortunately an Adcom 7807 7x300 came along. Between the Marantz and Adcom I was into the upgrade more than I have paid for any AVR in the past.

    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    mantis wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Where is all this 8K stuff? With the exception of my oppo 205 spinning 4K disc's I don't get any 4K stuff through my Dish box with the exception of the super bowl or something like that.


    Honestly it's all about the gaming consoles is where these new models shine. They don't require a correction box as the chip sets on the last year models where not up to snuff.
    I could care less about anything 8k

    Our original Wii and Wii U consoles look great through the Marantz. The pixelation is so much more detailed. 🤣
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 24,928
    dpowell wrote: »
    Arcam wins in both looks and performance…
    Reliability and difficult setup seems to be the Arcam's achiles heel. ;)

    Looks are probably the most subjective. Personally, I rank the three in terms of aesthetic appeal as follows:

    1. Marantz
    2. Denon
    3. Arcam

    Arcam is 3rd for me because I dislike the silver knobs and prefer a much smaller display or a display that can be covered during movies. Again, its a personal preference.

    The reliability issues have been solved. As you know I almost gave up on them, but the reward for sticking with it have been profound.

    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    Im glad it worked out well! You went through a lot of pain and suffering with that!
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • I have a question regarding avr’s.

    What’s the preference…
    Avr or processor with multi channel amp?
    Advantages/disadvantages of each setup?
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    edited January 2023
    Pre/Pro Advantages:
    In many cases the pre/pros bring a higher end processor and capability to the table than an integrated AVR.

    The external amplifier and its transformer are isolated from the pre rather than in the same box.

    You choose how much amplifier headroom you want available across all channels. For me that means 400wpc in the front stage and back rears and 300wpc to all other surrounds/atmos. No AVR that I am familiar with comes close to that.

    Ability to use XLR interconnects between pre/pro and amps is advantageous.

    Disadvantages are cost and space. For my setup, I need 11 amp channels which means 2 multi channel boxes to purchase and house.

    Previously, i had a Pioneer Elite SC67 AVR and used the internal amps for surround duty and an external Sunfire 5 channel amp for the front speakers. Advantage was one less amp box. Disadvantage is the AVR only has so much headroom to share between surround speakers. In my case, that was only four speakers at the time.
    This likely wont be noticeable to many. With all speakers driven using the internal amp, overall dynamics can be impacted.
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    One other advantage of the pre/pro I just thought of is electricity savings. I can turn off one entire amplifier when the wife is watching hallmark movies. No need for Atmos there. ;)
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • tophatjohnny
    tophatjohnny Posts: 4,159
    edited January 2023
    The Marantz 8802A is our HT unit ! The best sounding receiver with my digital files I’ve heard to date ! Switching is fast and smooth as they get but the Marantz App is quirky and needs serious upgrading to be considered a player in that area, so I use the app from my NAS Which is smooth as silk
    "if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
    *****************************
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    skipshot12 wrote: »
    I have a question regarding avr’s.

    What’s the preference…
    Avr or processor with multi channel amp?
    Advantages/disadvantages of each setup?
    Nicely answered above.
    In. most rooms and speaker setups, there is a AVR that will power the entire system to reference levels with the right amount of head room. Most over buy amps thinking they need all this head room. Nothing wrong with that other then never using what you purchased.

    I use to run external power amps, I had separates but my room isn't big enough to use all that power and I learned over time I can get away with a higher end AVR and get the job done well.

    Todays AVR's are better than ever. You can use them as Preamps now without worring about noise which is why you would want a dedicated preamp. Some AVR's even have the ability to turn off the internal amps, disconnecting them fully from the internal preamp.

    Every room and system has the correct gear that need to be spec'd. Larger rooms with difficult speaker loads require external power amps as most AVR's do not have enough power to drive the speaker package to reference levels without running out of gas.

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,337
    edited January 2023
    I've gone back and forth between AV preamps and AV receivers over the years. Every receiver I've purchased to use at home has had amplifier preouts. I started with a Denon receiver and added a Rotel RMB-1075 five channel amp to that soon after. Big improvement. I then added a seven channel B&K amp to replace the Rotel amp. More power! When I bought a Parasound C2 AV preamp I switched to Parasound Halo amps. That system was far better than any receiver based system for precise home theater sound as well as excellent two channel use. Here's where it gets tricky.

    Because the Parasound product lacked HDMI capability and Parasound was unwilling to invest funds it didn't have in producing a new one I switched back to AV receivers for a separate home theater system and set up a separate two channel system.

    Not many companies have the resources to keep up with changes in video and streaming technology as companies like Marantz, Denon, Onkyo/Pioneer and Yamaha. I tried a Marantz AV preamp for cheap on closeout after the Parasound one for a few months and it was acceptable and had the first iteration of HDMI.

    Receivers went through a few rounds of HDMI upgrades to get to 4K capability so I stuck with them and didn't bother going back to an AV preamp for about a decade. I'd buy a new receiver on closeout which is how I wound up with a Marantz SR7011 that I use for several years and still have in a bedroom system. For years I used the same Parasound A21 amp for the main speakers and let the receivers power the rest. Pioneer Elite receivers with Class D amps were truly 4 ohm capable. I eventually switched to a Parasound A31 amp when Parasound produced one so the front three channels would be equally powered. When I bought into the Polk Legend lineup of speakers with height modules the SR7011 was no longer going to drive them the way they should be driven so I bought an AV preamp and simply added a high performing but relatively inexpensive 7 channel amp again.

    My current system is a Marantz AV processor with 8K capability, the Parasound 31, and an Outlaw 7000x for the surround and height channels. Best I've ever had! I did try a Parasound JC2BP in bypass mode for two channel but found the Marantz sound by itself to be just as good. I don't envision changing out the AV preamp again until it breaks. I don't care about 8K or streaming through the preamp. The Marantz Cinema series AV preamp is now up to $7K. I'm not touching that!
    Post edited by Emlyn on
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    mantis wrote: »
    .

    Every room and system has the correct gear that need to be spec'd. Larger rooms with difficult speaker loads require external power amps as most AVR's do not have enough power to drive the speaker package to reference levels without running out of gas.

    Totally agree. In my case I have a weird shaped room that is 24' across the front and 35' front to back. An AVR worked fine with external power amplification for the fronts (1.2TLs) and center (LSiM 706c). When buying used, the upgrade path is generally dictated by opportunity, timing and available funds (I avoid buying audio gear with debt I cant pay off the next month). It just so happened that my used gear path to Atmos was made possible by @DSkip selling his 7704. 🙂. That is the honest reason I now have 2 external amps, not because I purposefully sought to make a change from AVR to PRE/PRO.
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 16,997
    edited January 2023
    Emlyn wrote: »
    I've gone back and forth between AV preamps and AV receivers over the years. Every receiver I've purchased to use at home has had amplifier preouts. I started with a Denon receiver and added a Rotel RMB-1075 five channel amp to that soon after. Big improvement. I then added a seven channel B&K amp to replace the Rotel amp. More power! When I bought a Parasound C2 AV preamp I switched to Parasound Halo amps. That system was far better than any receiver based system for precise home theater sound as well as excellent two channel use. Here's where it gets tricky.

    Because the Parasound product lacked HDMI capability and Parasound was unwilling to invest funds it didn't have in producing a new one I switched back to AV receivers for a separate home theater system and set up a separate two channel system.

    Not many companies have the resources to keep up with changes in video and streaming technology as companies like Marantz, Denon, Onkyo/Pioneer and Yamaha. I tried a Marantz AV preamp for cheap on closeout after the Parasound one for a few months and it was acceptable and had the first iteration of HDMI.

    Receivers went through a few rounds of HDMI upgrades to get to 4K capability so I stuck with them and didn't bother going back to an AV preamp for about a decade. I'd buy a new receiver on closeout which is how I wound up with a Marantz SR7011 that I use for several years and still have in a bedroom system. For years I used the same Parasound A21 amp for the main speakers and let the receivers power the rest. Pioneer Elite receivers with Class D amps were truly 4 ohm capable. I eventually switched to a Parasound A31 amp when Parasound produced one so the front three channels would be equally powered. When I bought into the Polk Legend lineup of speakers with height modules the SR7011 was no longer going to drive them the way they should be driven so I bought an AV preamp and simply added a high performing but relatively inexpensive 7 channel amp again.

    My current system is a Marantz AV processor with 8K capability, the Parasound 31, and an Outlaw 7000x for the surround and height channels. Best I've ever had! I did try a Parasound JC2BP in bypass mode for two channel but found the Marantz sound by itself to be just as good. I don't envision changing out the AV preamp again until it breaks. I don't care about 8K or streaming through the preamp. The Marantz Cinema series AV preamp is now up to $7K. I'm not touching that!
    I also find the Marantz Cinema preamp to be a bit expensive, a bit rich for my blood and my room doesn't require anymore than really 90-100 watts. I usually run 125-140 watts and have plenty of power.

    I'm currently thinking of 2 series of speakers. The Reserve series I would love to get a go as I would like to have a Polk system again. It's been a very long time since my main system was all polk. I had LSI's and that feels like a lifetime ago. They where great speakers.

    The other series I' considering is Monitor Audio Silver. A friend of mine has a full Bronze Monitor audio system and it really sounds awesome. They also have a very nice new color I like and only comes in the bronze line.
    https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/product-ranges/bronze/bronze-500/
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • stevep
    stevep Posts: 327
    dpowell wrote: »
    One other advantage of the pre/pro I just thought of is electricity savings. I can turn off one entire amplifier when the wife is watching hallmark movies. No need for Atmos there. ;)

    Thank the gods for network operation. I can just turn the whole thing off when that happens. Sorry dear it must have broken.
  • dpowell
    dpowell Posts: 3,045
    edited January 2023
    stevep wrote: »

    Thank the gods for network operation. I can just turn the whole thing off when that happens. Sorry dear you must have broken it.

    Fixed it for you ;)
    ____________________________________________________________ polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS SVS PB13 Ultra x 2Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, ADCOM 7807, Panasonic UB420, Sony SCD-C333ES, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,337
    Looks like the Marantz SRxx15 models, except the SR8015, are now getting price reductions. Truth is the prices are going back to pre "chip shortage" levels. $600 off the SR7015.

    Denon appears to be cutting prices too.