Shielded Ethernet cable suggestions to cure ground loop like hum

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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,671
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    You might try grounding your switch (if you have one), router, modem, BS Node......basically anything having to do with streaming. You may not have to ground all of them. Only experimenting will tell.

    If you don't have an available ground on a pre or other unit, run the ground to a wallplate screw (provided your outlet is grounded).

    After you figure out what is what, then you can make a more permanent solution.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • skipshot12
    skipshot12 Posts: 1,075
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    This is odd.
    Pretty sure my cat cable is 50’ from the modem to the router. Then 10’ to my Bluesound node 2 then glass fiber to my Oppo. All’s good, never an issue.

    Cannot remember the cat cable I bought but do remember I did quite a bit of searching before buying.
    Gonna look around but Beldin comes to mind.
    Almost seems like it has a cloth zebra looking outer jacket.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    Yeah, I know it's weird. It sounds just like a ground loop hum. It's constant, no matter how I move the cable or switch inputs on the pre-amp or dac or what port I used on the wireless router.

    I feel like buying another Node3 and seeing if my unit is defective. If they both do it, then I know it's not that. It's highly unlikely my unit is defective, but it is possible.

    Why when I plug in the TrippLite ethernet surge suppressor does it go dead quiet? I don't mind using that as long as it's not another thing in the chain that degrades the sound. The idea here is to have as few components/cables in the mix as possible.

    I'm in for the long haul trying to get the new speakers, various tubes and new streamer to work together and give me the synergy I'm used to with the old gear and SDA's.

    I know from experience it takes time. But this is a baffling one to me.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
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    I believe Tom has a unit you can try
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,671
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    Nope, I sold that one in December. Otherwise, I would have been happy to send it to him to test.

    Anyone else live around you that has a streamer you can test with?

    Also, when it comes to streaming....it's a whole new ball game. K.I.S.S. and most all of the things we associate with 2 channel audio, cables and well, pretty much everything, is that you can throw it all out the window. Ya' gotta open your mind to new things and not be stuck to "old school" trains of thought. What I am saying here is that even though it is an extra component, you may be dumping extra noise (other than the hum) to ground....which would improve the signal.

    Less is not necessarily more when it comes to streaming.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
    edited February 2023
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    I hear ya Tom. It makes it much better for sure.

    And now for something completely different....

    I am switching songs using the Qobuz app and I hear this fuzzy talking at the beginning of the next song. I thought oh well, it's part of the song. Then it happens on the next song. So I pause and I am hearing one side of a male conversation coming over the speakers. Almost like CB, sort of scratchy but clear.

    I'm like WTF now!!! I've lived here almost 12 years and never ever have I any kind of radio wave interference/bleed over (I'm assuming that's what it is). Switch inputs on all gear, the same. Unplug ethernet from the Node3 all the same. Then I hear a cell phone ring in the background of the male voice and he says, "I'm getting a call, got to go" and it ends. I assume it's not a cell phone interfering.

    Maybe it's time to shut the rig down for the day?

    smh..... ;):(

    Very strange

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
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    Mesh system
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,671
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    Do you have any PC's or IC's wound up in a circle? This would create an "antenna" of sorts.

    You definitely have some gremlins.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
    edited February 2023
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    Do you have any PC's or IC's wound up in a circle? This would create an "antenna" of sorts.

    You definitely have some gremlins.

    Tom

    No, not that I'm aware of anything coiled. This gremlin just came out of nowhere. I have never liked having the TV/DVD part of the 2 channel rig, but lack of space for both dictates that. It's been hooked the same for a very long time. DVDp to TV via HDMI then optical out of TV to DAC. Same with Dish TV box (HDMI). Going optical out of the TV to the DAC makes it simple and solid to listen to movies and TV.

    He could have been a ham radio guy too, it was hard to tell. He did come back after the phone call. It did sound like he signed off. Don't ham radio guys usually announce their call letters and sign off.

    I'm telling you, it's the damnedest thing. Never, ever had an issue before.

    I swapped out MIT power cables for Pangea power cables about 6 months ago and I just bought the Node3 and started using the ethernet connection instead of wireless. Those are the only changes? Besides the L600's.

    Is is possible the bleed over is coming from the tubes in the pre-amp?

    H9

    P.s. One issue at a time please.....lol :D
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,126
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    You have ground difference potential. Your experiencing 60hz hum which is what our electrical systems run at. Either your system is not grounded properly or where your network gear is plugged in is not grounded properly.

    Ethernet cables usually do not introduce EMI or RF interference into ones system by design. They are 4 twisted pairs. Even Cat 5e did a excellent not not doing this. It's not your cable making the issue , it's connecting to systems together with metallic connection that is causing your issue.

    You can PM me and I can give you my phone number and I can walk you through some steps to elimate this issue.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
    edited February 2023
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    Thanks Dan, I might take you up on that. Now that you mention gdp it made me think about how everything is hooked up.

    The Node 3 uses an IEC c7 socket, IIRC there is no ground as the cable is 2 pronged. In order to use my Pangea AC14 MKII SE which is 3 pronged I use this ice c7 to c13 adapter.

    ddisj04lvl1e.png

    I can almost bet this might be the issue?

    I bought an aftermarket LPSU interfase so I can hook up a linear power supply and get rid of the stock switching power supply.

    0kgkesbkdbpu.png

    https://pd-cf.com/produkt/bluesound-node-2021-upgrade-low-noise-psu-interface/

    I was going to wait to upgrade to a linear power supply, but I think I'll try to get that done this weekend to see if that might fix my issue. If it doesn't, we can talk.

    H9


    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
    edited February 2023
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    They make a c7 pangea for 35 dollars fwiw... Well obviously inflation has driven that price up! I bought mine 5 years ago
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    VR3 wrote: »
    They make a c7 pangea for 35 dollars fwiw... Well obviously inflation has driven that price up! I bought mine 5 years ago

    I already knew I was going to use the LPS, so I never bothered to get an "upgraded" c7 cable. I figured the adapter would work, but that might just be what's causing the issue. I need an excuse to mod the ps section of the Node3 after reading Phil's results. I just know the warranty will most likely be void.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
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    Yeah they have seriously raised their prices there
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    VR3 wrote: »
    Yeah they have seriously raised their prices there

    The don't seem to offer a c7 in the standard line of power cables, just the MKII Special Edition's. I'm sure I could find an older used one easy enough.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
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    I would also throw out there that power cables are insanely easy to make! :)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    I really won't need the c7 after I install the lps power board as my lps uses an iec 13. It would be more for testing if that gets rid of my ground issue. I'm sure I have a c7 around here somewhere that came with another piece of electronics. The basic rip cord type.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,936
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    Incoming coax cable from your Internet provider is a well known to create ground hum problems.
    Worth a check
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    How do I check? This has never been an issue before and I am not one to change things out that often. I'm mostly a set it and forget it guy.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,936
    edited February 2023
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    Do you have any spare coax?
    You'll need
    Spare coax and one of these.
    ntvggh6o5hbx.png
    Cut off an end and strip back to just the wire and plug wire into your modem. Using just the wire removes the ground part. If noise disappears Bob's your uncle, you have your answer.

  • Groundrod
    Groundrod Posts: 2
    edited February 2023
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    Ok, I have looked at your problem and the issue is that the ethernet jack on the Bluesound unit is a shielded type.

    If the router/switch jacks are shielded (which is very likely) and the E cable is shielded, a ground connection between them will occur.

    Since the Bluesound is a two pronged ungrounded device and is using a switch mode PS, a ground loop is possible.

    The first thing to do is to make sure that the AC outlets your using for all of your equipment are wired correctly by using a tester.

    This hum effect is usually a result of a reversed polarity wiring fault of the AC outlet.

    As a last resort, you could cheat and just replace the E cable with an unshielded one, but this would still leave the same issue if you ever decide to use the HDMI which is a shielded connection as well.

    Cheers !
  • Groundrod
    Groundrod Posts: 2
    edited February 2023
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    The problem is the E jack on the Bluesound is shielded and the unit is not grounded (two prong plug AC ).
    If the Ecable is shielded a ground connection will occur and could or will cause a ground loop.

    You need to use an AC tester on all your outlets to make sure the polarity is correct.

    The hum is telling you that the AC polarity is reversed at one end of the line.

    Cheers!

  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,126
    edited February 2023
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    Thanks Dan, I might take you up on that. Now that you mention gdp it made me think about how everything is hooked up.

    The Node 3 uses an IEC c7 socket, IIRC there is no ground as the cable is 2 pronged. In order to use my Pangea AC14 MKII SE which is 3 pronged I use this ice c7 to c13 adapter.

    ddisj04lvl1e.png

    I can almost bet this might be the issue?

    I bought an aftermarket LPSU interfase so I can hook up a linear power supply and get rid of the stock switching power supply.

    0kgkesbkdbpu.png

    https://pd-cf.com/produkt/bluesound-node-2021-upgrade-low-noise-psu-interface/

    I was going to wait to upgrade to a linear power supply, but I think I'll try to get that done this weekend to see if that might fix my issue. If it doesn't, we can talk.

    H9

    That is most likely not the issue but I also don't see any reason you need to use it and use an aftermarket power cord that is designed to be grounded and put it on a non grounded device. I don't see any benefit here. If you want an after market power cord, use one designed for the job. Adapters always suck.

    Put the stock power supply back in. I know having an after market power supply makes everyone feel better but when your having issues, it's better to remove any exterior things that potentially could be causing your issue.

    You issue again is a ground. The coax suppling your modem , if you disconnect it, see if the hum is gone. You won't have internet service while it's out but it will show you if the ground issue is there or not.

    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,316
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    He hasn't changed the power supply, fwiw
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
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    If the coax supplying my modem could be the issue, then why when I have it hard wired from to my computer and use the USB out to my office rig, I don't have the same issue? A bad ground is a bad ground so everything hooked to it should exhibit the same issue? The out lets I use are proper polarity and grounded.

    Just asking questions, so far everyone has been helpful.

    Dan, I haven't added the aftemarket stuff to the Node 3 yet.

    Also, why would the addition of an inline ethernet surge protector solve the ground loop issue? I don't even have the ground wire on the surge protector attached?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,671
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    Also, why would the addition of an inline ethernet surge protector solve the ground loop issue? I don't even have the ground wire on the surge protector attached?

    That's a good question that has me scratching my head.

    Does the PC on the BS Node have one larger prong than the other or are they both the same? If they are both the same, then flip it the other way and see if the issue remains.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,406
    edited February 2023
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    heiney9 wrote: »

    Also, why would the addition of an inline ethernet surge protector solve the ground loop issue? I don't even have the ground wire on the surge protector attached? Noise can be transferred from one device to the other this way.

    H9

    You are using Cat STP with shielded connectors, correct? It's possible that your surge protector does not have a shield pass through, or it's a plastic jack.

    This can happen with USB cables as well. A dirty PC will pass noise through the connector metal shield. You may counter with the statement that a shield should only be connected on one end only. An Ohm meter or continuity tester check will show whether the metal shield is connected on both ends of your cable.

    I have used a layer Of Kapton tape on the B end of USB cables to prevent possible noise entering into connected devices through shield. Carefully plug it in and check for continuity at USB shield to shield end on other end of cable. I did this with my DDC as the USB shield and I2S HDMI shield are connected. Rather than cut the circuit board ground that ties them together, the tape prevents any possible noise transfer into the USB and HDMI shield then passed into the DAC.

    l8x92sl21jcf.jpg




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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,936
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    You may counter with the statement that a shield should only be connected on one end only

    That was what I was getting to with the coax.
    I've had friends who had to remove the shield at the house to curtail the gremlins riding on the incoming coax.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,110
    edited February 2023
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    Yeah, this is a whole new level of frustration for me. I've never had an issue before as long as I have been streaming. Yes, I've upgraded modems and wireless routers a few times. In most cases they were the same brand/type, just newer.

    I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it all under advisement as I try to sort this out.

    Please, if you think of anything else, post it here. I may keep asking redundent questions because I know just enough about a volt/ohm meter to be dangerous.

    So, one question I do have is maybe try a non-shielded ethernet cable?

    Rich, your answer makes sense about the pass through on the ethernet suppressor might not have a shield.

    This is the unit, except mine has a green ground wire also.

    https://www.insight.com/en_US/shop/product/DNET1/TRIPP+LITE/DNET1/Tripp-Lite-Network-In-Line-Dataline-Surge-Protector-120V---230V-RJ45---surge-protector/

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!