What is missing from many 2 channel systems.
Comments
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Thanks Rich, that would be interesting information to gather.
And you conduct with the mic from/near the listening position, I presume?I disabled signatures. -
I'm having a hard time with that. RCA jacks is your line level signal. It's exactly what your amps get. A sub amp is now getting exactly what your main amp is getting. I don't see how it possibly in any way can take away from the main channels.My problem with adding a subwoofer via rca jacks is that I have never heard a system where it didn't take away from the dynamics and spatial imaging of the mains.
Now running a subwoofer via speaker line level may fix that problem but the list of subs that still offer it are slim
Can you explain your findings more in detail?
Also Speaker wire is a worse connection. I know what REL says but I think they are wrong. Consider this , in order for a speaker level signal can go to a subwoofer, it first starts out as a line level signal, the very signal you think takes away from the system when it's sent to a subwoofer. Then after it's line level an amp has to convert that signal to a speaker level signal with is higher current. Then that signal has to go to the subwoofer where it gets converted back into line level then back to speaker level so the actually driver in the subwoofer can play the signal. This my friend is where what your describing can happen on a very small level.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
On most 2 channel preamps, the second set of outputs used for a subwoofer connection is a parallel connection to the main outs. Splitting this signal, in my experience, is detrimental to the overall sound quality of the system.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Interesting conversation.
I do agree, the room tends to wreak havoc.
I have also attempted to install subs into the 2 channel system. I have thought about going RELs, but I have not been completely convinced to go REL. Currently, I am experimenting with JL Fathom 113v2 duals... after running room correct, it sounds... almost unnoticeable which is exactly how you want it. I have to still work on the LP crossover point, I would probably need the JL CR1 to complete the integration.
If my Velodyne DD10 plus's ever go bad and I can't get them fixed, I'm gonna go JL. The Fathom's are stupid good man. My god they blend into a system just as you described. They just become part of the system, not a sub bass system working with the system. I may have to say that JL audio subs might just be the very best in the business. The DD series from Velodyne is a strong competitor but I think you can swap them out for JL and not miss a beat.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
On most 2 channel preamps, the second set of outputs used for a subwoofer connection is a parallel connection to the main outs. Splitting this signal, in my experience, is detrimental to the overall sound quality of the system.
I agree, which is why I prefer to run speaker level so that my sub sees the same signal from my amps output as my speakers do.
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SCompRacer wrote: »Lets look at a more detailed chart. I suggest to folks that they consult a chart to see what they are listening to and do a room frequency sweep. You are either fine or missing something.
I listen to music at times that goes well below 40Hz and employed subs to augment those frequencies. I sure enjoy hearing and feeling more than a faint hint of those frequencies.
Awesome chart. It's really nice for people to see where things land. Most people have no idea what lives where and this chart is a very nice way to check on that.
Thanks man.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I tried the line level and high level connections with my various Velodyne subs. They always integrate and therefore sound better with the high level method.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'm having a hard time with that. RCA jacks is your line level signal. It's exactly what your amps get. A sub amp is now getting exactly what your main amp is getting. I don't see how it possibly in any way can take away from the main channels.My problem with adding a subwoofer via rca jacks is that I have never heard a system where it didn't take away from the dynamics and spatial imaging of the mains.
Now running a subwoofer via speaker line level may fix that problem but the list of subs that still offer it are slim
Can you explain your findings more in detail?
Also Speaker wire is a worse connection. I know what REL says but I think they are wrong. Consider this , in order for a speaker level signal can go to a subwoofer, it first starts out as a line level signal, the very signal you think takes away from the system when it's sent to a subwoofer. Then after it's line level an amp has to convert that signal to a speaker level signal with is higher current. Then that signal has to go to the subwoofer where it gets converted back into line level then back to speaker level so the actually driver in the subwoofer can play the signal. This my friend is where what your describing can happen on a very small level.
Using high level means the sub gets the sound signature of the power amp, which is why the sub integrates better.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
^^Yes and I was certainly surprised to see how high the fundamental notes of pipe organs can go! Almost twice as high as a piccolo which is around 4kHz. Surprised too that piano can go as high as 4.5kHz in the white area and around 15kHz in the gray area.
On the low end, I have read that certain pipe organs can actually go as low as 8 Hz and that a Bosendorfer piano can go as low as 21.8 Hz (F0) and certain models as low as 16.3 Hz (C0).George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
You guys with high/speaker level sub integration - what kind of cables do you use? Same as out from the sub to your speakers?I disabled signatures.
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You guys with high/speaker level sub integration - what kind of cables do you use? Same as out from the sub to your speakers?
I don't nor can I run speaker cables from the sub to the speakers. For the speaker cables from the amp to the sub I do use the same brand of cables as I run from the amp to the speakers.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You guys with high/speaker level sub integration - what kind of cables do you use? Same as out from the sub to your speakers?
I am using the stock cables that my subs came with. I have talked with Doug about building me some Furutech Alphas that would match my speaker cables but I have not done that yet.
2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables -
I would have to assume that with a powered subwoofer, gauge requirements would be lessened but I personally feel it is still important to use high purity copper, preferably OCC. I wouldn't think fine multistrands would be of any particular advantage due to the low frequencies. I think go with as few strands as possible without it being too stiff, to meet the desired AWG requirement due to skin effect not being an issue.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
I've had equal success with both line level & hi-level. I couldn't detect any difference in sound. Consider me lucky I guess... plus the line level was much easier to work with in my set up.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
SCompRacer wrote: »
What pretty colors those are!Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus -
SCompRacer wrote: »
What pretty colors those are!
True, but what are the black extensions on some instruments supposed to mean?
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
SCompRacer wrote: »
What pretty colors those are!
True, but what are the black extensions on some instruments supposed to mean?
I found an interactive version with a legend. The black bars on the low side are "Low Fundamentals" and the ones on the high end are "Breath/Blow/Air". That's all I got lol.
https://alexiy.nl/eq/
Edit - If you click on the Equal Loudness Contour and full screen it, it is pretty interesting to see that the human ear is most sensitive right around where a baby's cry is in frequency. Interesting.Post edited by Gardenstater onGeorge / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
And you conduct with the mic from/near the listening position, I presume?
That is correct. Just an example regarding placement of speakers/subs. When folks pop over to listen to my system, I play something real low and have them get up from listening position and walk toward the center of the room. The low bass slowly disappears and reappears as you near the opposite wall.
Best placement for my subs is against wall between and within a foot of the speakers. I have tried all over the room to get the best results. Placement failures mean you get closer to what works. You just have to document everything you do so you don't repeat mistakes.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Gardenstater wrote: »
I found an interactive version with a legend. The black bars on the low side are "Low Fundamentals" and the ones on the high end are "Breath/Blow/Air". That's all I got lol.
https://alexiy.nl/eq/
It gets complicated and I don't pretend to understand it all. With low fundamentals, think harmonics..
"In music, the fundamental is the musical pitch of a note that is perceived as the lowest partial present. The fundamental may be created by vibration over the full length of a string or air column, or a higher harmonic chosen by the player. The fundamental is one of the harmonics."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_frequency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
I understand fundamentals and harmonics, which are multiples of the fundamental and are what are responsible for the different timbres (audible quality) of different instruments that may be playing the same note.
But are lower harmonics really a thing? Just asking.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
I added a Velodyne 8" sub to my 2.3TLs using high level inputs with the same speaker cable. Took a while to dial it in but it integrated with great results. Never took any measurements just used my ears.Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
1KVA Dreadnought
Marantz SA 8005
Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
Sony PS4
Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video
"All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER" -
I added a Velodyne 8" sub to my 2.3TLs using high level inputs with the same speaker cable. Took a while to dial it in but it integrated with great results. Never took any measurements just used my ears.
I thought the 2.3tl's went down really low already, what do you gain with a sub? -
This rough test of my in room response at the seating position.
Ignore the huge dip in the upper frequencies, for some odd reason the midrange test tone ends before the high frequency test tone begins.
I marked 30hz and 20hz on the chart for reference. I just don't see how a subwoofer would help me unless I just wanted a bass heavy sound, which I totally get people like. Almost every audio meet I go to I am turning off subwoofers.
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
This rough test of my in room response at the seating position.
Ignore the huge dip in the upper frequencies, for some odd reason the midrange test tone ends before the high frequency test tone begins.
I marked 30hz and 20hz on the chart for reference. I just don't see how a subwoofer would help me unless I just wanted a bass heavy sound, which I totally get people like. Almost every audio meet I go to I am turning off subwoofers.
I wonder how a rotary subwoofer would work with the big sda's for movies with low bass? I don't think music needs all that bass, it takes away from the rest of the music. -
I don't run the infinite baffle for music, would be way overkill and a little slow.
For movies... It is no contest man, deepest, most effortless bass dollar for dollar!
I will have to do a sweep of that system some day but I only use the HT 10% of the time- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
I added a Velodyne 8" sub to my 2.3TLs using high level inputs with the same speaker cable. Took a while to dial it in but it integrated with great results. Never took any measurements just used my ears.
I thought the 2.3tl's went down really low already, what do you gain with a sub?
They do. I thought about adding subs to mine, but anyone who has heard my rig can tell you there's no point.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I added a Velodyne 8" sub to my 2.3TLs using high level inputs with the same speaker cable. Took a while to dial it in but it integrated with great results. Never took any measurements just used my ears.
I thought the 2.3tl's went down really low already, what do you gain with a sub?
They do. I thought about adding subs to mine, but anyone who has heard my rig can tell you there's no point.
I own the 2a's and they even dig deep, so I thought the 2.3tl's would dig even deeper. -
I'm pretty sure most of the sda tower models can do 30hz with authority, especially modded- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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I'm pretty sure most of the sda tower models can do 30hz with authority, especially mods
I do believe some people don't get the bass performance from them if they don't use a top quality amplifier. -
Also, resealing the enclosure would go a long way. Having a good amp for any 2 channel is a must!- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
