Lsim 705s and 704c require amp?
Hi I just upgraded from s55, s30 center to Lsim 705 and a 704c. I will still be running s15 for surrounds. My reciever is Sony str-dn1080 with 165 w per channel in 7.2. I will be only running this in 5.1 with a powered sub. Will I need an amp to make these Lsims sound their best?
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Yes.
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absolutely 150-200 true watts, both Monoprice and Parasound amps really open up the ring radiator tweeter and 3" midrange, also tightens up the bass big time, LSIM speakers will work with a AVR for home theater, crossed over at 80htz, but it still sounds sub-par and doesn't show what your speakers are truly capable of imo.
It should be a unwritten law if you buy the LSIM line, you should be required to hear them with a good high current amp before making your purchase, so you understand what your missing out on, pushing those LSIM speakers with a AVR or 50-100 watt integrated amp. Good Luck! -
What if I biamp with the extra two surrounds? Do you think that would help?
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What if I biamp with the extra two surrounds? Do you think that would help?
Nope.
Does your AVR have pre-outs?
Making them sound “their best” is a rabbit hole you probably don’t want to go down. They will sound better with an amp than with the AVR alone, but...
They will also sound better with “x” amp over “y”, etc. etc.Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
Bi-amping LSIM speakers is worthless with its internal crossover and there is no such thing as Bi-amping with a AVR that shares the same powers supply.
I am a 2 year LSIM 2-705 1-706 2-703 owner myself and there is only one thing that will make your speakers sound like they should, I just dropped 3k on a Parasound A52+ you can go with a couple 2 channel amps, but you will end up wanting a 5 channel.
Don't be like me, I ended up buying both amps and learning the hard way, Buy once and cry once, I am a happy man finally after I cried twice..
Best
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHA52P
Good
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15593
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3 grand amp to run these speakers! They'll go back the day they arrive if thats the case.
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you can use 3- outlaw mono blocks and just keep adding them as needed.. but i wasn't happy with the class H sound its sounds like class D to me..
https://outlawaudio.com/shop/power_amplifiers/45-model-2220.html -
3 grand amp to run these speakers! They'll go back the day they arrive if thats the case.
Welcome to Hi-end Audio, If you look at the original price of the LSIM speakers, that is really about right speaker to amp price, they say invest most in your amp anyways in Hi-end Audio.
You can still enjoy them, but if your like me, it will eat away at you like it did me.
I eventually bought the Parasound A51+ amp after I heard my friends 7 speaker LSIM set up with correct gear! -
3 grand amp to run these speakers! They'll go back the day they arrive if thats the case.
3K will buy a decent power cord.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Not to rain on your parade bro but your Sony str-dn1080 is also about the weakest and worst sounding AVR they sell these days,
I think Sony is getting out of the AVR biz anyways.
You will at the very least want to upgrade to a flagship AVR like a Yamaha or Marantz around 150 watts a channel until you buy the Amp and you can use its pre-outs.. so its not just the price of the amp, you will need a pre-amp also..
Good Luck! -
Coralinus, I wasn't trying to sound rude bro, What I mean to say is your Sony AVR is rated at 6ohm not 8ohms.
Your str-dn1080 is maybe putting out 35-40watts with 7 channels driven, That model doesnt have pre-outs, In fact i dont think Sony makes a model with pre-outs anymore. Sony needs to up there game or stick to making TV's.
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Polk's Signature line of speakers is a good match for the STR-DN1080. That 165 watt rating Sony cites is just marketing and is taken at one frequency point with high distortion. It's not akin to real world usage. It is however genuinely rated at 100 watts per channel if only used in stereo. Add other speakers and the power output to the main and center speakers leaches far lower. It's the low power output from a small power supply in a budget receiver that damages speakers. Not to say there's anything wrong with the STR-DN1080 but it is only built to do what the designers and bean counters wanted it to do.
The LSiM line can be run safely from a higher level receiver with higher current amplification, with safely meaning not damaging the speakers through too little power going to them. Crank the volume from a lower end receiver into LSiM speakers and eventually the speaker drivers and crossover will burn out. Crank the volume too high with any receiver and damage to the speakers will result, but it's less likely with a receiver nearer the $1500 to $2000 MSRP range.
A separate amp isn't absolutely necessary if the receiver is something like a Marantz SR7013 but the speakers would also benefit from having a separate amplifier for the main 705s. The SR7013 is on sale because of a newer model coming out. Doesn't need to be $3K spent but bear in mind that the real value of the 705s and a 704 was close to $4K. Speakers and amplification should be in the same general price range. -
Sony ES STR-ZA3100ES and STR-ZA5000ES have pre outs. I own the 5000es and it has plenty of power to drive the LSIM series speakers especially when you run everything in small and crossover at 80hz which you should be anyway.Coralinus, I wasn't trying to sound rude bro, What I mean to say is your Sony AVR is rated at 6ohm not 8ohms.
Your str-dn1080 is maybe putting out 35-40watts with 7 channels driven, That model doesnt have pre-outs, In fact i dont think Sony makes a model with pre-outs anymore. Sony needs to up there game or stick to making TV's.
Power amps are not needed for these speakers unless you have a huge room and listen at stupid high volumes, then you will need more power. OR if you don't have a subwoofer and run things in large , then yes you will need more power.
The receiver you have now you need to upgrade. I suggest if you like Sony then getting at least the 3100 but I really suggest going with the 5000es. I own it and it's a pretty damn good receiver. I usually swap out my AVR's often but I don't really at this time need anything better. I have ran amps off it many times and unless your cranking it, there really isn't any benefit in the lower volume areas. Some external amps will give you better sound quality due to it having it's own power supply and better quality CAPS. Meaning more dynamic power. This is where external amps make better quality speakers sound their best.
So as said above, welcome to higher end audio. Buy better speakers you will need better amps and or AVR behind it.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Sony ES STR-ZA3100ES and STR-ZA5000ES have pre outs. I own the 5000es and it has plenty of power to drive the LSIM series speakers especially when you run everything in small and crossover at 80hz which you should be anyway.Coralinus, I wasn't trying to sound rude bro, What I mean to say is your Sony AVR is rated at 6ohm not 8ohms.
Your str-dn1080 is maybe putting out 35-40watts with 7 channels driven, That model doesnt have pre-outs, In fact i dont think Sony makes a model with pre-outs anymore. Sony needs to up there game or stick to making TV's.
Power amps are not needed for these speakers unless you have a huge room and listen at stupid high volumes, then you will need more power. OR if you don't have a subwoofer and run things in large , then yes you will need more power.
The receiver you have now you need to upgrade. I suggest if you like Sony then getting at least the 3100 but I really suggest going with the 5000es. I own it and it's a pretty damn good receiver. I usually swap out my AVR's often but I don't really at this time need anything better. I have ran amps off it many times and unless your cranking it, there really isn't any benefit in the lower volume areas. Some external amps will give you better sound quality due to it having it's own power supply and better quality CAPS. Meaning more dynamic power. This is where external amps make better quality speakers sound their best.
So as said above, welcome to higher end audio. Buy better speakers you will need better amps and or AVR behind it.
I didn't know Sony still made higher end AVR, I haven't seen them for sale anywhere for a while, I learned something new.
I was listening to Gene's podcast at Audioholics.com saying
"he heard from someone high up at Sony, that they are done making AVRs?"
I was never a big fan of Sony AVR sound signature, but they did make some reliable high value AVRs over the years and yes the one I owned was a ES model, if remember right!
The more competition the better for all of us, I hope they aren't done with AVR's.
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Here is my analysis of how much power the LSiM speakers need, or at least can benefit from. https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
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The sony receiver i have is relatively new, it was purchased for christmas as an upgrade over a bit lower quality model. I feel like i stretched my budget to get this one. I understand its not high end. But of those under my $600 limit, i went with this one because it had more amp power. I feel a bit deceived about it. I guess i didn't notice the 6 ohm thing, but even if I had Im not sure I would have realized what that meant. I did look at recievers up to about a $1000 just to see what you get as you go up in price. It sort of looked like to me that the general trend was that as one moved up in price point most of what you got is more channels or features (for example 5.1 vs7.1, vs 9.2, vs 11.2). It didnt look like they really get more power per say. Maybe its the ohm thing not sure. I really didnt look at models above $1000 price point cause realistically, i didnt have the wife's buy in nor the budget to even be looking at those. But I feel like I caught a black friday deal on the sony 1080. Its what I have. It does make my signature speakers sound slightly better than they did with the other reciever. And really, I'm quite satisfied with how they sound. Why I was even looking at other speakers is that, while the first and most important system is the music only system is upstairs, the old reciever enables an upgrade to the home theater downstairs. So my motivation to look for another set of speakers was to upgrade the music system upstairs, and then move the signatures downstairs at the same time. I caught a break on the Lsim and got them for a steep discount and I dont think they are going back. I mean you dont send back a winning lottery ticket because they tax the winnings. Right? But Perhaps the goal is not to make the LSIM "sound their best." Perhap the goal is for them to sound better than the signatures. Is that possible with my set up?Post edited by Coralinus on
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Perhaps the goal is not to make the LSIM "sound their best." Perhap the goal is for them to sound better than the signatures. Is that possible with my set up?
You sound like me about 15 years ago. I bought a pair of LSi15 at closeout prices only to realize I needed an amp for them to “sound their best.” Well, I eventually got that amp, but I sure enjoyed them running off an AVR when they didn’t “sound their best”.
Someone mentioned “buy once, cry one”, but I didn’t really have the money for that. Instead I found good deals (most often used gear) and I upgraded as finances (and the wife) allowed. The cool part about this route is that you get the joy of getting new gear more often😁. In your current situation I can’t imagine the LSiM won’t be a nice improvement over what you have now. When you finally get an amp, it will almost be like getting new speakers because of the improvement the amp provides.
I say enjoy your new speakers, but don’t go nuts with the volume knob.
Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
I good or sound bit of advice is to start with the best speakers you can afford and upgrade the rest of your system in the future as your budget allows. Corailnes, it should like you are proceeding down this path nicely. Enjoy.SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
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Only a decent one? Sheesh 🤔"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Here is my analysis of how much power the LSiM speakers need, or at least can benefit from. https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/
Very helpful thank you!Perhaps the goal is not to make the LSIM "sound their best." Perhap the goal is for them to sound better than the signatures. Is that possible with my set up?
You sound like me about 15 years ago. I bought a pair of LSi15 at closeout prices only to realize I needed an amp for them to “sound their best.” Well, I eventually got that amp, but I sure enjoyed them running off an AVR when they didn’t “sound their best”.
Someone mentioned “buy once, cry one”, but I didn’t really have the money for that. Instead I found good deals (most often used gear) and I upgraded as finances (and the wife) allowed. The cool part about this route is that you get the joy of getting new gear more often😁. In your current situation I can’t imagine the LSiM won’t be a nice improvement over what you have now. When you finally get an amp, it will almost be like getting new speakers because of the improvement the amp provides.
I say enjoy your new speakers, but don’t go nuts with the volume knob.
Thanks. I can handle buying upgrades periodically and on the used market. So long as using the under powered AVR is not going to damage the speakers. Heck my truck is only worth about $3,000, so I can't justify spending that much on an amp sheesh. I don't tend to turn them up to ear piercing levels, but the room is large and we do like to fill it with music. I have an SVS sub sb12-nsd, and will be setting the speakers on small, crossing over at 80 or so. That might help right? -
Yes, sub will help. Nice sub btw.
Someone answer this question: Are the 705’s that much harder to drive than the S55?Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
well said, In the rat race of life I kinda have forgotten what makes this hobby of ours so much fun.
I would love to be at the start of my Audio journey again. like starting where you are Coralinus, good times! Enjoy yourself rule #1 and yes there is always used gear. Make sure your having fun!
Now, I am pissed off... I paid 8k for my power cord and it looks like the new model is cryogenically frozen and diamond crusted for only 15k more! -
What would you say about running some of the speakers through the sub instead of off the reciever?
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You lost me here... don't overthink things here. Set all speakers to small in the AVR and set XO to 80 Hz to start off with. Hear how things sound & if need be set the XO a tad lower. Have fun & enjoy the learning curve.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
What would you say about running some of the speakers through the sub instead of off the reciever?
Are you talking about the speaker level input on the sub? If so, that has no effect on the receiver powering the speakers.Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
Here is my analysis of how much power the LSiM speakers need, or at least can benefit from. https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/
Very helpful thank you!Perhaps the goal is not to make the LSIM "sound their best." Perhap the goal is for them to sound better than the signatures. Is that possible with my set up?
You sound like me about 15 years ago. I bought a pair of LSi15 at closeout prices only to realize I needed an amp for them to “sound their best.” Well, I eventually got that amp, but I sure enjoyed them running off an AVR when they didn’t “sound their best”.
Someone mentioned “buy once, cry one”, but I didn’t really have the money for that. Instead I found good deals (most often used gear) and I upgraded as finances (and the wife) allowed. The cool part about this route is that you get the joy of getting new gear more often😁. In your current situation I can’t imagine the LSiM won’t be a nice improvement over what you have now. When you finally get an amp, it will almost be like getting new speakers because of the improvement the amp provides.
I say enjoy your new speakers, but don’t go nuts with the volume knob.
Thanks. I can handle buying upgrades periodically and on the used market. So long as using the under powered AVR is not going to damage the speakers. Heck my truck is only worth about $3,000, so I can't justify spending that much on an amp sheesh. I don't tend to turn them up to ear piercing levels, but the room is large and we do like to fill it with music. I have an SVS sub sb12-nsd, and will be setting the speakers on small, crossing over at 80 or so. That might help right?
Yes that will help. Also, the outlaw amp will sound awesome for a lot less than $3000.Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
I’ve got an older Parasound powering my HT and I think I paid $400 for it, maybe less. I’ve had better (more expensive) amps in the past, but this one is here until it dies...or until I do😮Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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Coralinus,
About twice a year Monoprice will have Sales, B-stock & Open-Box pricing deals that sell the 3-5 ch amp for $998-$1299, the Parasound is my reference amp choice at 3k, I like the sound of it because it has a higher class A bias, its Class A/AB, then your standard class AB amp and I had to save up for it myself, I understand trust me.
Your reference might be the Outlaw Monoblocks or I suggest buying a Monoprice deal, over the next couple months watch for deals at there website, its a great amp and as long as you take care of it, you will always be able to get most your investment back, when you go to sell the Monoprice amp or the Outlaw monoblocks. -
My receiver only has two preouts, 1 preout for sub and one set for zone 2. I don't think my receiver is capable of adding a bunch of amplification. My sub on the other hand has the ability to amplify speakers out but then i would be drawing power away from the sub. So if I'm adding amplifiers, I'd have to first look at getting a different reciever before adding amplifiers. I think I would have made different receiver decisions if i knew all this before hand. But honestly, thats a lot of money to squeeze just a little more sound quality out.
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My receiver only has two preouts, 1 preout for sub and one set for zone 2. I don't think my receiver is capable of adding a bunch of amplification. My sub on the other hand has the ability to amplify speakers out but then i would be drawing power away from the sub. So if I'm adding amplifiers, I'd have to first look at getting a different reciever before adding amplifiers. I think I would have made different receiver decisions if i knew all this before hand. But honestly, thats a lot of money to squeeze just a little more sound quality out.
Your sub CANNOT amplify other speakers. It can PASS the signal on from the receiver or amp to other speakers, that is all.
As some said, start off by crossing everything over at 80hz and let the sub handle the rest, and don’t go nuts with the volume knob and you’ll be fine. But, even the 5 channel amp from outlaw would sound awesome if/when you decide to upgrade, but you would need a new receiver...
Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
