Lsim 705s and 704c require amp?

Emlyn

Another option if there's space in the house is to put the LSiM 705s in a separate two channel only system for a while until funds are available to increase the power available to the home theater. The 705s would be fine with a used 100 watt per channel integrated amp or receiver if they're just run by themselves. Building systems incrementally is a big part of the fun.

Coralinus

Ok that makes sense. I thought they amplified speakers but if thats not true it just shows how much of a newbie I am to all this. But it does make me wonder why they even have that feature on a sub. Makes more sense to just run them directly out of the receiver. Ok can some one explain to me how a receiver partitions out amplification? So my sony advertises that it has 1155 total watts in 7.2channels. It goes on to say it has 165 watts per channel. But if you do the math 1155/7.2=160.41? Others, if i understand what they are saying, especially when talking bi-amping, say that its all the same power supply. My receiver has a setting to tell it that you're running power from the second surrounds into the fronts when biamping. How much power actually goes into a biamping if you do that? Some say its not 165+165. Is there some mechanism where a channel is limited to some wattage limit? Does it make a difference for other speakers if i run in 5.1 vs 7.1. Help me understand how all this actually works.

Emlyn

That 165 watts rating thing is put there by marketing so they can move boxes. It's not a lie, but it's not a useful measurement.

The way to look at this is if you take a look online at the power supply (transformer, capacitors, output devices) inside a receiver that has a class AB amplifier you will see that they are very small compared to those found in a high current separate amplifier. That small power supply can't take current from the wall outlet and produce high current output for several speakers. Every speaker uses current from the finite amount a power supply can produce and every speaker added to a system drains power away from the total available to every other speaker.

rooftop59

Coralinus wrote: »

Ok that makes sense. I thought they amplified speakers but if thats not true it just shows how much of a newbie I am to all this. But it does make me wonder why they even have that feature on a sub. Makes more sense to just run them directly out of the receiver. Ok can some one explain to me how a receiver partitions out amplification? So my sony advertises that it has 1155 total watts in 7.2channels. It goes on to say it has 165 watts per channel. But if you do the math 1155/7.2=160.41? Others, if i understand what they are saying, especially when talking bi-amping, say that its all the same power supply. My receiver has a setting to tell it that you're running power from the second surrounds into the fronts when biamping. How much power actually goes into a biamping if you do that? Some say its not 165+165. Is there some mechanism where a channel is limited to some wattage limit? Does it make a difference for other speakers if i run in 5.1 vs 7.1. Help me understand how all this actually works.

Time to get your read on...here are the test bench results for my AVR. It’s actually rated at 125 WPC two channels driven, most aren’t even that honest. But notice how much the wattage drops when you add more speakers:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The subwoofer has speaker level ins/outs for a two channel system with no sub output on the preamp or integrated amp.

Coralinus

Ok if my receiver does not have pre outs, can an amplifier still be added to it or will I have to get a new receiver before adding amplification?

ken brydson

Coralinus wrote: »

Ok if my receiver does not have pre outs, can an amplifier still be added to it or will I have to get a new receiver before adding amplification?

No pre outs, can't add an amp.

shs

Coralinus, My advice would be to enjoy the system you have. You have some excellent speakers and I would use them in your home theater as you intended with your current receiver. If you keep the volume at everyday comfortable levels, you will be fine.

A few years from now if you find that you are using your home theater a lot and really enjoy it, and you have a few more dollars available, then it might be time for your next investment, either a better receiver or better yet, a home theater preamp-processor and a multichannel amplifier. There are different amplifier technologies out there and the correct amp for your home theater might involve more than just thinking about available power. My previous amp was a 7-channel Theta Digital Dreadnaught II, a high bias Class AB. Sounded great, but it also served as a room heater, even when in standby. Lots of wasted energy! I am now using a Class-D amp that puts out even more power, sounds great, but runs cool as a cucumber! To me, having an energy efficient amp that can be put in a cabinet without overheating is a plus. You will have to make your own choice as to what is important to you when the time for an upgrade comes. So, enjoy your system as it is and when that time comes it seems like you will get plenty of help on this forum!

Coralinus

Thanks all, you have given me a lot to think about and learn. I'm excited about my new Lsim speakers and will let you know how they do once they arrive.

dromunds

The LSiM line is awesome. Like mentioned above, just don't go cowboy on the volume, and upgrade your system around them as you can. The better the power you give them the better they will sound. That does not mean volume, however.

Coralinus

So I just got the Lsim 705's in and set them up along with the 704c center. I think they sound great. My receiver is able to power them at my typical listening volume. So that worked out ok.

dromunds

Don’t forget there will be a long break-in period where they may sound good then bad then good then bad

mrloren

Congrats on the speakers, you will enjoy them.

I have the same speaker setup + add in-ceiling for height. It is an awesome sounding. you will need a breaking in period. I'd say have something playing in all channel stereo for a few weeks. The 704c took the longest to brake in.

For the longest time all I owned were Sony AVR. I worked in the CRT plant and the discounts we had on them it didn't make sense to buy anything else. Now that I no longer receive a discount I went to other brands. I do find Sony AVR do great on music but not so much on movies. Onkyo was better on movies but could not come close to Sony on music. Marantz once dialed in is equal on music and much better on movies. Denon is close on music and same as Marantz on movies

Marantz is great if you can stand that porthole display. Like me I couldn't so I moved into Denon. Both sound awesome, The Marantz is a tad better on music, just that darn porthole display.

Once you get a good AVR with pre-out then looks for a good used amp. For new an Outlawaudio 5000 is less than $1k
Emotiva and Monoprice are a coin toss. I literally did this when I made my choice on an amp
Moving up from the budget amps the sky is the limit

Remember to try not to pay retail MSRP for your gear. Offer-up CL and others are a great way to find audio equipment at a discount. Our insurance agent said my HT is over $10k I have around $5k into it.

Hansvelton

JayDog wrote: »

Coralinus, I wasn't trying to sound rude bro, What I mean to say is your Sony AVR is rated at 6ohm not 8ohms.
Your str-dn1080 is maybe putting out 35-40watts with 7 channels driven, That model doesnt have pre-outs, In fact i dont think Sony makes a model with pre-outs anymore. Sony needs to up there game or stick to making TV's.

Actually it does a bit better.....about 65 watts per channel, when using 7 channel mode.

2 channel stereo mode does about 100 watts/Channel.

Both into 8 ohms at .1% distortion.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-str-dn1080-av-receiver-review-test-bench

So not "great" but for sure not one of the worst AVRs
Some models really do only put out about 20 or so watts in multichannel mode.

JayDog

Hans,
Like I said about 40 maybe 50 usable watts? 1% distortion is beyond usable, But thanks

"Off topic rant to explain my thoughts of Sony"
I personally have demo'ed several AVR's the last 5 years, I judge AVR's these days by the ones with the best room correction 1st, then by how it measures 2nd. 2 channel pre-amps and amp listening is totally different compared to home theater and AVRs with DSP.
Sony is at the bottom of the best sounding AVR list imo.
Denon, Anthem, Yama, Marantz or Pioneer are all going to give you a better end result in sound quality, in your room after you run there room software imo.

I love Sony Tvs. I have owned several of there products over the last 30yrs, the A9 Oled tv, Sony still has some of the Best TV processing software and up scaling. The CRT Trintron XBR TV's, the Super Betamax sound and Picture was Awesome for its time, but when it comes to AVR's in today's competitive market. Sony is at the bottom of the list and would be one of my last recommendations.

Coralinus

Original poster here. For any who have a similar question, I have my system set up and have a few months into listening to it. Id like to share my thoughts and experience. My system is Sony str-dn1080 avr 7.1. It powers polk Lsim 705s, polk lsim 704c, and polk 703s as surrounds. I have an SVS sb12-12nsd sub. I mostly run music through either cd's via a Sony DVD/cd 5 disc changer, or I stream hifi via Tidal through the AVR. It is a music only system. The streaming uses the Chromecast feature on the avr that allows it to play direct from wifi or through an internet connection depending on how its set up. I can't hear a difference between cds and Tidal hifi, but I can hear a difference in lower quality streaming services.
I have the fronts and the center crossed at 80 hz, and the surrounds crossed at 110. The fronts are biamped with the reciever set up on that setting. Sony manual says that when configured that way, it uses one channel to run the bass and another to run the treble. As I understand it, I dont think it makes a difference but i did it anyway because I had enough extra cable and figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The system sounds incredible. I don't play terribly loud but its plenty loud to fill my large room with sound. I should say its loud enough for me. I think that because I have the speakers crossed over, and run a sub with it, that the AVR has enough power to run the system even in multi mode. On the other hand, I am impressed how well the 705s sounds in 2 channel. They reach down enough to use it without the sub. I do notice that if I cross the bookshelves below 110 hz, I hear a noticeable drop in performance from all other speakers. So that is evidence that the system needs more power to realize its full potential. I have not experienced any clipping, nor distortion and so far its ok I think. For now I am happy with it how it is, its really just a great sounding system. One day I will upgrade to some higher end components to be able to use amplification, but so far it does really well.

F1nut

FYI, the more channels you use, such as the ghetto bi-amp BS, the less wpc your AVR can produce because all those channels are sucking off of a single power supply.

Bi-amping requires two separate amplifiers, each with its own power supply and active crossovers. You don't have any of that.

Remove the fake bi-amp set up, then replace the stock jumper plates with high quality speaker cable.

mrloren

That so called bi-amp is total BS like F1nut said. You only have a small power supply in that AVR. Every time you add a channel it takes power away from another. Reason you hear a noticeable drop is your AVR is trying to push power to 7 channels. Think of it this way. A power supply is like a faucet. You can "T" off that faucet all you want, in the end the same amount of water comes out.

For now can the bi-amp, The Sony AVR is not bad, good on music if you don't push it. Save some $$$ for a better AVR with pre-outs. An Outlaw 5000, Monolith or Emotiva amp will power your system nicely

rooftop59

Coralinus wrote: »

Original poster here. For any who have a similar question, I have my system set up and have a few months into listening to it. Id like to share my thoughts and experience. My system is Sony str-dn1080 avr 7.1. It powers polk Lsim 705s, polk lsim 704c, and polk 703s as surrounds. I have an SVS sb12-12nsd sub. I mostly run music through either cd's via a Sony DVD/cd 5 disc changer, or I stream hifi via Tidal through the AVR. It is a music only system. The streaming uses the Chromecast feature on the avr that allows it to play direct from wifi or through an internet connection depending on how its set up. I can't hear a difference between cds and Tidal hifi, but I can hear a difference in lower quality streaming services.
I have the fronts and the center crossed at 80 hz, and the surrounds crossed at 110. The fronts are biamped with the reciever set up on that setting. Sony manual says that when configured that way, it uses one channel to run the bass and another to run the treble. As I understand it, I dont think it makes a difference but i did it anyway because I had enough extra cable and figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The system sounds incredible. I don't play terribly loud but its plenty loud to fill my large room with sound. I should say its loud enough for me. I think that because I have the speakers crossed over, and run a sub with it, that the AVR has enough power to run the system even in multi mode. On the other hand, I am impressed how well the 705s sounds in 2 channel. They reach down enough to use it without the sub. I do notice that if I cross the bookshelves below 110 hz, I hear a noticeable drop in performance from all other speakers. So that is evidence that the system needs more power to realize its full potential. I have not experienced any clipping, nor distortion and so far its ok I think. For now I am happy with it how it is, its really just a great sounding system. One day I will upgrade to some higher end components to be able to use amplification, but so far it does really well.

probably best to not bi-amp, but other than that, if you're happy rock on! You'll save a lot of money that way...

Milito

I have the same speakers as far as left, center and right. I have a Yamaha RX-A2070 and believe the above that if you add an amp it will sound better.

The first amp I added was the Outlaw 5000, a five channel amp which made a nice improvement in the sound. I have also used others and all of them improved the sound over just running the Yamaha which is 150 watts, 2 channel driven.

PSOVLSK

Glad you’re enjoying it. I’ve the 703, 706c, and 702 surrounds and I really like the LsiM’s.

The system is great now and can be even better if/when you decide to add an amp. I built my system piece by piece and enjoyed each upgrade as it happened.

Coralinus

Question, seems to be consensus that bi amping does nothing, that its a marketing gimmick at best. I used the bi amp feature figuring it wouldn't hurt and didn't cost me anything because I had a huge roll of speaker wire that ive had for years. But something someone said suggested that it might be bypassing the lsim internal crossovers. Someone else suggested i might experience less power because its using more channels of the receiver. Is that true that I might be lowering performance by bi amping or is it a no effect either way? I could easily change it.

F1nut

But something someone said suggested that it might be bypassing the lsim internal crossovers.

Impossible with the gear you are using.

Someone else suggested i might experience less power because its using more channels of the receiver. Is that true that I might be lowering performance by bi amping

It's TRUE

BlueFox

It would seem bi-amping would require two amplifiers, but I’m not sure how the preamp would deal with that. I’m glad my speakers only have one set of inputs.

dromunds

I don’t know what kind of speaker “wire” you are using but the LSiM deserve quality speaker cables as well as good interconnects between your components.

Coralinus

I'm using 14 gage awg RCA copper speaker cable. Need I more/better?

mrloren

Coralinus wrote: »

I'm using 14 gage awg RCA copper speaker cable. Need I more/better?

YES!

Monoprice/Amazon Basic 12awg is a good starting point. Canare from Blue Jeans Cable is the sweet spot.

F1nut

Coralinus wrote: »

I'm using 14 gage awg RCA copper speaker cable. Need I more/better?

I will always recommend MIT cables first and foremost because they are the best, bar none. However, I'm sure they aren't in your budget range. Some that might be and which have impressed me are cables from, https://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/speaker-cables-2/

shs

Just to be clear, bi-amping is not nonsense, but that is probably not what you were doing. Bi-amping uses two separate amplifiers and speaker cables to drive the two speaker inputs, typically with an active crossover between the preamp and the two amplifiers to separate the bass and treble frequencies so the amplifiers only amplify and send the appropriate frequencies to the two speaker inputs. That is a good, but expensive ways to drive a speakers and is sort of like what we do with subwoofers and speakers – your AVR only sends the appropriate frequencies to the subwoofer and speaker amplifiers. Your SONY AVR does not have extra amplifier channels that can be used for bi-amping.

What you were likely doing was bi-wiring which uses two sets of speaker wires between a single amplifier channel on the AVR and the two terminals on the speaker. That is of minimal value.

rooftop59

F1nut wrote: »

Coralinus wrote: »

I'm using 14 gage awg RCA copper speaker cable. Need I more/better?

I will always recommend MIT cables first and foremost because they are the best, bar none. However, I'm sure they aren't in your budget range. Some that might be and which have impressed me are cables from, https://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/speaker-cables-2/

Yes, speaker cable makes a difference. Another option is just to cut them yourself and add bananas. Here is one place you can purchase the canare cable:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

rooftop59

shs wrote: »

What you were likely doing was bi-wiring which uses two sets of speaker wires between a single amplifier channel on the AVR and the two terminals on the speaker. That is of minimal value.

That’s not exactly true. Receiver is now “seeing” two more channels, which makes the user think that their speakers are getting more power, but they’re not. The power usually drops at least in half when you go from 2 to seven channels driven, so you are taking power away from your other speakers including your center which is very important to add maybe 10 WPC to your mains. You’re also just straining your poor little avr…I can’t find measurements for yours, but here are some for a similarly priced receiver. This is very common:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-s900w-av-receiver-test-bench