LEGEND L800

mhardy6647

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Frank Malitz

This guy is a world class buffoon.

Solar System class -- at least.

Unfortunately, that Carver 275 amplifier, though named to leverage the McIntosh MC275 mystique, is a 15 watt amplifier in terms of "continuous, wideband power at a reasonable level of harmonic distortion". Mind you, that doesn't mean it is a bad sounding amplifier... it likely sounds pretty good connected to appropriate loudspeakers (I haven't heard one). But it is not the kind of amplifier platform any of the SDA loudspeakers, and certainly not the L800, were designed for.

The crossover in the L800 will soak up 15 watts of input power and disburse it as heat!



OK, that's not quite true -- but the sensitivity and the electrical efficiency of the L800 is low, in keeping with modern trends, since amplifier power today is cheap.

invalid

mhardy6647 wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Frank Malitz

This guy is a world class buffoon.

Solar System class -- at least.

Unfortunately, that Carver 275 amplifier, though named to leverage the McIntosh MC275 mystique, is a 15 watt amplifier in terms of "continuous, wideband power at a reasonable level of harmonic distortion". Mind you, that doesn't mean it is a bad sounding amplifier... it likely sounds pretty good connected to appropriate loudspeakers (I haven't heard one). But it is not the kind of amplifier platform any of the SDA loudspeakers, and certainly not the L800, were designed for.

The crossover in the L800 will soak up 15 watts of input power and disburse it as heat!



OK, that's not quite true -- but the sensitivity and the electrical efficiency of the L800 is low, in keeping with modern trends, since amplifier power today is cheap.

I've seen the ASR measurements also, but people who own this amp say it's pretty powerful, one guy even said it bested the Atmasphere 60 watt tube amps.

nooshinjohn

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

invalid

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

No he was driving magnepans

nooshinjohn

invalid wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

No he was driving magnepans

Depending on the model, they present an easier load than the Polks do…

mhardy6647

nooshinjohn wrote: »

invalid wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

No he was driving magnepans

Depending on the model, they present an easier load than the Polks do…

Indeed.
The Magneplanars are nearly purely resistive loads -- except some with impedance humps at the XO.
Insensitive as all getout (although not as bad as they used to be), but benign impedance characteristics.




https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements


https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-measurements

Clipdat

I got three words for ya'll.

It. Repairs. TOOBS.

mrbigbluelight

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

Klipsch ? 😳

mhardy6647

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I bet he is not driving L800’s with it. I have no doubt the 275 sounds nice. I also have no doubts that it is a relative lightweight shan’t it comes to supplying the current needed to drive anything but speakers of the highest efficiency.

Klipsch ? 😳

Well, I mean, there's Altec and JBL, too, you know?
Thankfully.

OldCrow

My thanks to all of the helpful and knowledgeable contributors. I am only speaking from my own experience. My concern with the L800 is the SDA Pro.

As a conventional speaker, they sound wonderful. They surpassed (only slightly) my SDAs in just about any measure. Tighter base, warmer mid-range, greater transparency, etc. But that's not why we love SDA speakers!

My problem is the imaging and sound location occurring outside the boundaries of the speakers. The L800s sound spacious at best. From a typical listening set up, you have about 45 to 60°of angular speaker position. The SDA Pro produced about 100° maximum, compared with the SDAs at 180° (sometimes a little more!!). Of course it has to be the right source. I know you all have demos songs to freak out visitors and have them searching for surround speakers!

I know there are better amplifiers available, but I don't think the topology is the problem. And I've never heard anyone complain that Polks are a difficult load. I have 5 amps from lo-fi to mid-fi that produce outstanding SDA and consistently produced abysmal SDA Pro. I had such high hopes and was sad and disappointed to return them. Have we heard from any L800 owners?

nooshinjohn

OldCrow wrote: »

I had such high hopes and was sad and disappointed to return them. Have we heard from any L800 owners?

I own them, and in my space they sounded better than my fully modded 1.2TL's. I do agree that the sound is more focused, in that the impression of SDA wrapping around you tends to not be there like on the older models. To my ear, this makes for a more precise, believable soundstage. The sounds of an electric guitar should come from the front of the soundstage, not from the sides or behind you.

That said, SDA Pro takes an extreme amount of time to break in. It took over two hundred hours to settle in and continued to improve afterwards for closer to 500 hours. Before that 200 hour mark, I too was very dissatisfied with the sound, but I could hear moments of brilliance so I kept at it.

For me, it was very much worth the time, and they have transformed my listening experience.

Emlyn

I owned just about every model type of the original SDA speakers. They were all a lot of fun and got the driver integration so right. But they also had deficiencies caused by their cabinet structures and driver design and layout. Some of those things could be remedied to a degree with upgrades. But, there are reasons I only own the L800s for SDA speakers now.

Using a word like abysmal seems like overstating the differences to me but I agree they are indeed different.

OldCrow

nooshinjohn- this is for you. I've been posting lengthy comments trying to describe my experience. You wrapped it up with a bow in one paragraph! That is exactly what I was trying to describe. I actively seek the wrap around headphone effect. Keyboard seem to be the worst for believability. So...the SDA Pro is not designed to mimic the SDA effect. All is well in my world again. This is been a thorn in my side for 10 months- thank you. I'll bet I was pretty close to 500 hours. They sounded wonderful right out of the box. They absolutely sounded better than my SRS but not that much. It put to rest my fear of aging crossovers...mostly.

OldCrow

Now who was talking trash about the Crimson 275? No, just kidding. But the reviews make me wonder if I can power it up with a USB port. Reviews aside, I'm very happy with it. Beautiful sound with enough power to easily exceed comfortable listening levels- I experimented. The tubes are cool enough for 5 seconds of fingertip - again, I experimented. Carver solid state amps barely get warm. Also 5-year tube warranty. So there!

OldCrow

Hi Emily. You're right, abysmal was overly harsh. Truth be told, I thought the L800 was an exceptional speaker, best I ever had. I was completely on board with the sound. But, it seems I had unreal expectations of the speaker. I assumed the SDA Pro would produce the amazing headphone effect of the SDA. Your comment substantiates nooshinjohn's post. Thank you also.

OldCrow

Sorry, Emlyn. Spell checker switched your name on me.

F1nut

My experience with the L800 was they produced a wrap around sound like a surround sound set up, but from 2 speakers. That is not realistic and is not what I have ever heard from any vintage SDA model.

nooshinjohn

F1nut wrote: »

My experience with the L800 was they produced a wrap around sound like a surround sound set up, but from 2 speakers. That is not realistic and is not what I have ever heard from any vintage SDA model.

That is what my 1.2TL’s did. In my case, they were just too big for the room. The SDA-1c size of the L800 is a much better fit.

gregmoyers

L800’s vs. vintage SDA SRS’s
How are the L800’s in the extreme low end compared to the the SRS big boys? I have heard few speakers old or new that have the excitement in the deep bass area that my SDA SRS’ do driven with my Threshold S500. Low volume or extremely loud I’ve never heard anything I would rather have at home.
Interested in all comparisons between the 2

nooshinjohn

I had 1.2TL's, with upgraded crossovers. The bass from the L800 is faster and more defined than SDA-SRS. The Legends dig deep and have no need for a sub in the mix, whereas I was using a sub to add definition to the bottom end of the TL's.

Ultimately, and in my space, the L800 is the better speaker, by a wide margin.

msg

OldCrow wrote: »

Here are some pics:

That one on the left might have a hole somewhere.

dpowell

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I had 1.2TL's, with upgraded crossovers. The bass from the L800 is faster and more defined than SDA-SRS. The Legends dig deep and have no need for a sub in the mix, whereas I was using a sub to add definition to the bottom end of the TL's.

Ultimately, and in my space, the L800 is the better speaker, by a wide margin.

Im surprised you needed a sub to fill in the bottom end for the TLs. Really goes to show you how much the room impacts their performance. The TLs in my room dig satisfyingly deep. I know they would dig even deeper if I had your tube amps hooked up to them. 😃

I also recently added dynamat to the drivers and to my ears, it tightened up the bass a bit.

OldCrow

That sounds the opposite of my experience. My go-to track for SDA is the intro of Sheep, Pink Floyd Animals. The two electric piano "hands" are clearly and distinctly located in their respective back corners of the room, both 90° away from the center line. I understand the physics of it but it still seems like a magic trick! Sure, minimizing inter-aural crosstalk seems like a good idea, but who w

F1nut

Considering the -3dB of the L800 is 32Hz and the -3dB of the 1.2TL is 27dB it's not possible for the L800 to have deeper bass.

nooshinjohn

I agree with you, Jesse. However, I do believe that what is being mistaken for deeper bass might be heard, as more controlled and articulate bass, which might give the impression of it being deeper.

OldCrow

I haven't posted on this thread for maybe a couple years. I tried the L800s for 60 days and returned them. Wonderful sound, but I found I preferred the original SDA over the SDA Pro.
Fast forward to now, my dentist has offered me a Mark Levinson 27.5, dual mono 100 WPC. Problem is I have blade blade SRS. Luckily, I just got a pair of SRS1.2TL with an AI-1A cable. Thanks for the foil info, F1. He's going to let me audition the amp for a couple of weeks.

msg

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I agree with you, Jesse. However, I do believe that what is being mistaken for deeper bass might be heard, as more controlled and articulate bass, which might give the impression of it being deeper.

John, reading what you've shared above - got it. Curious. Can you speak a little more on "deeper" bass? I'll help with specific questions - lower frequency, or just greater sense of presence?

I've had experiences where there's tons of bass, but it's just hitting hard/greater presence, but turns out this is sometimes at higher low frequencies, which gives the impression of tones of bass. Not a bad thing at all with respect to certain tracks, eg. one of my test tracks, which has character that IDs phase and capability, and it's not even that low. That said, I can see where this performance at higher-low level freaks might present like more bass.

So I was just confirming what you meant with "deeper bass". Is the sense greater extension? Like, you think it's lower? I suppose some of it could be room and placement related as well, given that the L800s are ported and your 1.2TLs sealed.

For the first time, last 2 to 3 years or so, I had experiences with quality bass with subs at first. It was a profound experience, to say the least. Like jaw dropping, holy crap moments. Controlled, impactful, increased presence, and, what I think is called, bass texture? Tone and detail in the low frequencies as opposed to "one-note-wonder"? This jumped out at me initially with one track in particular - Jane's Addiction's Ted Just Admit It. There's this passage where there's a build up, then a pause, then everything comes in hard core. For the decades I've enjoyed this track, it presented as jumbled mess at that stage, but when I first got a ML Abyss sub in house, that passage was tight, fast, impactful and articulate. I remember saying out loud to myself HOLY SCHIIT! and messaging @rooftop59 shortly after, since he's the one who turned me on to ML subs.

Anyway, just some personal context there with respect to bass observations and wondering what you think.

F1nut

IME, the bass out of the L800 is more dynamic than the large SDA speakers. That is, it seems to hit harder, but the bass from the large SDA speakers can rattle the walls and your body like a good subwoofer.

nooshinjohn

@msg ...

As I sit listening to them now, there is much more detail in the lower range that there was to my TL's. I concur with Jesse when he says the 1.2TL's have more bass, but the L800's are able to dig deeper into the music and retrieve micro-details within that region and lift that information in a way that allows your ear to hear things that were previously jumbled in with the rest of the lower frequencies.

We talk a lot about how we tend to find new details in the mid or higher frequency range of recordings when we change one speaker for another or restore the crossovers/tweeters in the SDA's. The L800 do the same thing for the bottom end. Right now I am hearing the after-vibrations of a kickdrum and it is as if I can hear the air move around it. On the 1.2TL's, they were very good at delivering the kick, but that 'suck out' that occurs immediately afterwards disappeared. The L800 is exceptional from top to bottom in delivering what is in the recording.

Toolfan66

I love the L800’s, they hold their own IMO..