Some RTA-11tl Love

F1nut · August 2020

pitdogg2 wrote: »

You have a bigger set than I. I would foul that up bid as sh...

Looks good.
One question is from wood class yrs ago we always needed a paste wood filler on certain woods walnut being one of them. Is that not necessary with veneer?

Any wood or veneer with larger pores should be filled with paste wood filler if one desires a glass smooth final appearance. There are other ways of getting there, but paste wood filler can get you there faster.

westmassguy · August 2020

I've used Wunderfil:
https://www.rockler.com/wunderfil-wood-filler-2-oz-colors?country=US&sid=V91041&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=PL&tid=pla&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=(ROI)_Shopping_-_All_Products&msclkid=ef62ae409b1013f67f7ef10b1205d55b
Have had greatresults.

xschop · August 2020

It's nice to see a different veneer that's looks great and classy. Nice choice and work.

gramey · September 2020

First, Thanks to everyone for the compliments. I appreciate the feedback.
As for the questions..
-Yes, this particular veneer is as porous as any walnut that I've ever run across. And,
as F1nut aptly pointed out, if a glass smooth finish is your goal, then using a filler is a quick way to get there.(Thanks David for the Wunderfil tip-Ive never heard of the stuff before). There other options as well, but the ones I'm aware of involve using your own shop-made(you supply the elbow grease) 'filler' like pumice and rottenstone and an oil(like Tung, perhaps) or creating a slurry of wood dust by wet sanding the veneer with an oil as you finish your layers of 'finish'. There are multiple ways to skin this cat.
Fortunately, for me, my goal has not been to fill the pores entirely. I'm just hoping for a 'finish' that looks and feels like wood-but I am experimenting a bit on just what that's going to look and feel like.

-Contact cement.. Once I decided that I wanted this particular veneer, and the only way to get it was by using it in a raw form, then I had to toss the contact cement option for two reasons. First, my veneer supplier(veneersupplies.com (no affiliation)) pretty staunchly recommended against using it for raw veneer because it would not provide the necessary bond. Yes, he sells the heat-activated glue I did end up using, but he also sells contact cement as well, so I don't think there's a conflict here in that regard.

https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/faq-veneer-glue.htm#VG15

The second reason... I have used contact cement on laminates/countertops and they worked wonderfully(including a router table I built(cough-cough)2+ decades ago and still use, but my experience is,, once you let the two glued surfaces touch at all-they are bonded, for better or worse! In short, I knew there was no way that *I* was going to successfully line up the grain patterns on the speaker corners using contact cement, even if I tried using dowel rods as roller bearings under the veneer. I'm just not that lucky/skilled. Not..a...chance. Ha.

-Dyes...Thanks for this F1nut, I'm definitely going to read up on ILVA stuff for future reference. I've have zero personal experience with these dyes.

-Softeners....yes they are out there. I ended up purchasing a small spray bottle(SuperSoft2) *after* I had the cracking issue, but actually ended up using very little of it going forward. Supposedly it will make the veneer more pliable and lay flatter, but w/o affecting its ability to take adhesive or a finish. I just dont have enough personal experience yet to say how well. No, Gardenstater, I would not recommend using water as a substitute for the exact reasons you listed.

Going forward...
I set up a quick test veneer from a couple of leftover pieces. The larger one on the left is divided into four sections, the smaller on the right is separate. Sorry, but I wouldnt spend too much time trying to discern exactly "what looks like what" in this photo because no matter how I held the samples for the photo, they dont look in the photo exactly like they do to the naked eye.

The large scrap piece is sanded to 220 only!
going clockwise..
-top left corner is the Minwax, and F1nut nailed it, the pigment did obscure the grain.
-top right corner is 2 coats of Watco Danish oil(no top coat yet)
-bottom right is 2 coats of Maloofs poly/oil (a blend of linseed,tung,and poly)the manufacturer recommends at least 2 more coats at 24 hour intervals-so no top coat yet.)
-bottom left is two coats of Danish covered by a single coat of maloofs.

OK, the minwax(top/left=t/l) is now out of the running. Not a good choice for this particular veneer. The Danish(t/r) and Maloofs(b/r) are very similar in appearance, with the Danish appearing more neutral and the Maloofs slightly warmer in tone. The Bottom/left square was an afterthought, and needed more thought! Its just for ****s and giggles going forward(most likely).

The smaller scrap on the right was sanded to 400 instead of just 220. This did remove some of the 'curl' character of the veneer(unavoidable)... and also seems to have provided a lighter overall tone-which is not unusual. This piece is only coated with Maloof's, and seems to be getting noticeable warmer with each coat, and with at least 2 more coats to go, I'm wondering if it is going to end up just too 'orange' in appearance. I'm going to go ahead and finish the 2 additional coats of the Maloofs and then take the samples to the living room and see what they look like there.

Yeah,, this whole process is getting just a little drawn out.. I agree. Sorry. My wife has already decided that she likes the Danish oil, but I have been an admirer of Maloof's work with walnut for a long,long time, so I want to finish the 2 additional applications in the next 30 hours and see what I end up with.

-glenn

westmassguy · September 2020

Very nice Glenn. Those are going to be the sharpest pair of RTA-11s around.

F1nut · September 2020

My choice, the smaller sample as it has a warmer tone. The others are too cold.

pitdogg2 · September 2020

F1nut wrote: »

My choice, the smaller sample as it has a warmer tone. The others are too cold.

I agree I like the look of it

F1nut · September 2020

New walnut has a natural cold tone, but as it ages it develops a rich warm tone with a yellow background hue. One can make new walnut look like it's 200 years old by first applying a yellow dye, then applying a dark brown toner coat or even a dark brown wiping stain over it. If you want a bit of an orange tone apply an orange toner coat between the yellow and dark brown. Presto, 200 year old walnut. Of course, I have no idea what that will look like in 200 years.

pitdogg2 · September 2020

I have no idea what that will look like in 200 years.

400 yr old walnut....

Viking64 · September 2020

F1nut wrote: »

Of course, I have no idea what that will look like in 200 years.

LIES!!!!

gramey · September 2020

Ok,,

Thanks again folks.

A quick update. The wife and I did indeed agree with F1nut and pitdogg2 and went with the somewhat warmer finish on the smaller sample, namely: the Maloof poly/oil. I experimented a bit with it and 3 different amounts of sanding(to 220, 320, and to 400) on a side of the 'bin' I veneered for practice further up in this thread. I ended up doing the recommended 4 coats over 4 days and then chose the 400grit finish because it just 'felt right', there wasnt much difference between the three visually.

So finally(!)....time to finish-sand these beasts. This included checking for any glue lines that might be peaking thru at the corners. My setup below was simple... one 11TL speaker, a t-bar sander with 150 grit(this was used very sparingly!), my trusty porter cable speed bloc with 220 on it(this did the bulk of the actual sanding that was done), a small piece of 320 paper, and finally a small piece of wet/dry 400. That's it.

Confession time,, I actually enjoy sanding, always have. As long as I have the right paper, and some tunes in the background, I'll sand until my shoulders ache. I think its something to do with the interaction with the wood on an up-close level...or something. Today's musical choice was the latest album by The Who, generally upbeat enough to get me thru this process, and probably their best album in.. close to 40 years. lol....

That said, I used the power sander to remove the most material, which wasn't actually that much because I wanted to preserve some of the curl effect in the grain. I probably
had the power sander on for less than 4 minutes per speaker. I then followed that up by hand with 320grit, and then 400(used dry-mostly). Then I put the slightest of easing on the corners all the way around. Then, I wiped all the surfaces with alcohol(Iso-91%) to clean them up and check for any trouble spots. I like the alcohol because it will give me a preview of what the surface will soon look like when the oil is applied, but it evaporates very quickly and wont raise the grain. It's good for spotting any minute glue lines that might remain as well.

Then,, it was time to apply the Maloof's... a step which(in case you haven't noticed) I have not exactly been in a hurry to embark on... lol. But, the weather is too glorious here today to not give this a spin...

So, here's the beginning of a side. It goes on like...well, kind of like clean motor oil. That is the consistency it has. Probably like a 10w30. No special application pad, just cotton rag for applying, then another for wiping off the excess a few moments later.

I rubbed it on in a circular-ish motion to get it down into the pores that were still remaining,, then followed that immediately with an additional light application rubbing only in the direction of the grain. After a brief time I had worked down to the near end of the speaker, so I then just grabbed a clean rag and began wiping off the excess starting at the far end again. The directions say to 'apply liberally' and then to wipe off 'all excess' with no mention of a delay between the two-so that's what I've done both in practice and now doing the speaker itself. In 24 hours I will repeat.
Anyway, here are a couple of shots with one coat now applied.
Top view...

and an attempt at a photo from the side....

I'm very pleased so far. Whether I do the recommended 4 coats, or stop at 3, or maybe do 5 I will determine when I get to that stage. There is a followup application offered by the manufacturer which is a poly/wax. I havent purchased that yet, not sure I will. Might try an aerosol final coat. In any case, I have time because the tung oil that is in what I am applying now means no other finish can be applied for "several weeks" What?? (ha-"they 'get' you at the drive-thru! They know you're gonna be miles away before you find out......"). Im guessing about 6 weeks. But, I will *not* be waiting that long to install David's handiwork and giving these a spin.

*if anyone considers using a product like this, please heed the directions/warnings about spontaneous combustion.. etc..etc.

-glenn

westmassguy · September 2020

Those look absolutely gorgeous Glenn.

F1nut · September 2020

I approve

Jazzhead · September 2020

Very nice. Great job matching the grain on the corners. Any finish with tung oil will take some time to fully cure, but successive coats will build up and look lovely. They are going to sound great when you are all finished and will be a joy to look at.