Phase Plug design for MW65xx

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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,500
    xschop wrote: »
    The separation definition of male/female vocals by old school duets really caught me off guard.
    Never thought I'd delve into Ashford and Simpson era stuff, but it's also new sonic experience as well.

    Minnie Riperton makes Mariah Carey sound haggish.

    "Genius Loves Company" has lots of good duets. Ray Charles album.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited July 2022
    Same goes for female/female vocals. Bumpin' The Mary Jane Girls right now. Incredible.

    I'm looking forward to the handful of SDA owners to report back.
    Post edited by xschop on
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    Soon...

    Soon, I'll do mine.

    As it is, I have one in the drawer of my desk. I reach in and fondle it at least once a day.

    Sometimes twice.
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    I have 6 available for the RTi-A drivers if anyone is interested, just PM.

    nsh0fd1itser.jpg
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    Soon...

    Soon, I'll do mine.

    As it is, I have one in the drawer of my desk. I reach in and fondle it at least once a day.

    Sometimes twice.

    I hope you got a good listen beforehand.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 533
    @Gardenstater , @xschop , "Madonna" never sounded so good (ahem...)
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    @xschop, I have a cherry pair of Monitor 7B’s with mw6500’s and Peerless that I want to do the full battery of mods to. Been watching this thread with interest. What would a pair of phase plugs, and two pair of your backer “rings” cost me?
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited July 2022
    I'll PM
    You following in @Gstaters footsteps?

    I didn't post for Tony's RTiA mids, but I did the exact same procedure as the 65xx's

    You don't even need shims as long as your eyes can discern 1/32" in gap around circumference of plug and VC. I've done every single one by eye with Red#271 and a slight twist motion back and forth 3x to evenly spread the single small drop.
    Use the plug to check first which area, if any of the VC needs to be rounded out with the curved end of a Sharpie marker more smoothly before gluing.
    Post edited by xschop on
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    xschop wrote: »
    [I hope you got a good listen beforehand.

    Nope =\

    Since the crossovers were fubar, I could hear that the speakers work, but not critical listening.

    Only have my Monitor 12 to compare them to the modded 1C when done =(
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited July 2022
    plastic_avatar wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    [I hope you got a good listen beforehand.

    Nope =\

    Since the crossovers were fubar, I could hear that the speakers work, but not critical listening.

    Only have my Monitor 12 to compare them to the modded 1C when done =(

    That's unfortunate, not to be able to A-B them, unless you plugged the MWs last. I almost got ahold of a set of 1Cs some weeks back, but didnt have a truck at the time for the 1 way hour drive.
    Since the 1Cs can't be officially TL'd, I was going to build the 1 piece dual tweeter plates for the Dayton sticky domes and phase plug all the drivers.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    Oh! I didn't think to do 1 big plate. [thinks]... But then I wouldn't have my cool double tribute plates ;)

    No A/B = I can't imagine the mids being much different than the 12's from stock. I know there will be differences between the 1C and the Monitors, but I don't expect that qualityto be too far off. Might be wrong. Will have to see.

    When I plug the Monitors, I'll be able to give a real report for them, when that happens... some day...

    I'm not opposed to saving the plugs until the end, for a proper 1C A/B.

    I'd do it just so you'd have my anecdotal data =)

    Man, I ramble when I'm sleepy...
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Yeah, I was going to carve out the factory router area in between the single plates and just have a shared set of countersink mount screws and hurricane nuts there. So one plate and six screws.
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  • plastic_avatar
    plastic_avatar Posts: 708
    And, Dayton sticky domes?

    There's a Wuhan alternative?

    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    I personally like the Dayton DC28f. Currently in my 5Bs and two sets of 5Jrs, traded one set. Put them in SDA-10Bs and a custom set or CRS+ that I traded for a higher SPL application. Wish I had phase-plugged them, probably would have kept them around.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Getting around to plugging my 4 spare 6516's. This one lost some of it's coating when it shifted in transit. I added the same black paint (set in hot garage over a month now) and still not only stuck to cone, but blended and stuck to the coating/polymer very nicely also....

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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    edited September 2022
    When @xschop says only use a drop of loctite, he means it! I did maybe a drop and a half, let it set then experienced mucho regret. Eeked out and down between the pole piece and the vc….

    Luckily it hadn’t completely cured. So I had to coax them to separate with a rubber mallet… Then I subsequently undid my powergrab job, separated the pole piece from the driver with a dowel and a hammer and some coaxing. Cleaned the red goop out of the gap and then the partially cured stuff from the pp & vc. Reglued, reassembled, centered with the trusty ol jig, back to singing. Whew.

    Second try I only used a single small drop. Now they’re attached and happy. What a nerve wracking process haha!! Hopefully worthwhile. Time will tell. More details when I get the rest of the project completed…

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    Post edited by JayMX on
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,500
    edited September 2022
    That is indeed a harrowing experience. Congrats on a great recovery!

    I used shims from Vigoro houseplant labels, partially laminated with frostking polyethylene tape for the phase plug diameter. I think that protected me somewhat from any overages. This is the first one I did where I think I put a tad too much and got the drop a little off center. Because I had the shims I was able to push and rotate the phase plug a lot without fear of losing the center and I think that helped with spreading the loctite out evenly.

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    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited September 2022
    Nice save. I haven't run into any that had the VC leads so far above the inner cone like the one in your pic. Luckily you didn't cut that one. I would try to lay it flat against cone and use some adhesive or the latex paint to secure it better.

    Very nice build you're doing.

    FYI, you can also hit them with a light coat of paint and they will still clear VC no problem.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 533
    Nice save is right. I never could have pulled that off lol... When you're all done those speakers are going to sing.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,500
    edited September 2022
    Yeah man! You are in for a major treat is about all I can say! You will love listening to all your favorites on those things when you are done and will say.......I never heard that before!

    Tell us more about the braided wiring harnesses you made. I would like to do that with my 15awg Cardas tweeter wires. I could never pull it off with the solid 12awg UPOCC Neotech MW wires though. I will have to settle for a 2 wire twist.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Braided wires... I'm behind on that mod lol. I recently updated my 5B's to Supra Rondo. Still listening and comparing to stock.

    Yeah, if Polk would have continued in this progression of these doped-paper drivers, they would have lost newer sales.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,553
    Braiding wire is not difficult at all. I've made power cables 10 and 12 gauge that way for years. I use 5 or 6 wires now, in the beginning I used only 3. It's tedious work and your fingers get very sore and tired. 😉
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    I think I've read before that the technique inhibits "crosstalk noise" or maybe inductance between the strands?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • gp4jesus
    gp4jesus Posts: 1,988
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I've made power cables 10 and 12 gauge that way for years. I use 5 or 6 wires now, 😉
    Power cables as in the removable kind? Typically w/an IEC on one end and a 3 prong male on the other? Those higher current IEC connectors can get $ey!
    Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED, Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga: LCR mids “Foamed & Plugged**”, inside* & out
    8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out
    *soldered **Rob the Man (Xschop) LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & Mids - 981, connected w/Monoprice Premiere ICs
    Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    Regarding the cables, those weren’t (completely) DIY… I ain’t that skilled. I had an old 8’ piece of Kimber 8TC that I cut into chunks. Added spade lugs and some heat shrink since then. It’s no doubt overkill for a single midwoofer and single Peerless tweeter (12AWG equivalent) but it looks cool…. The stock wimpy wire was actually a little corroded near the ends, so I figured I might as well use the Kimber Kable since it had no other home.

    Here’s a shot from Kimber’s site of modern 8TC braid. Just gorgeous.
    fow37qfhl828.png

    https://kimber.com/about
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,949
    edited September 2022
    And if you're on a budget: https://www.ebay.com/itm/231736468996

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/231722649770
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,553
    gp4jesus wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I've made power cables 10 and 12 gauge that way for years. I use 5 or 6 wires now, 😉
    Power cables as in the removable kind? Typically w/an IEC on one end and a 3 prong male on the other? Those higher current IEC connectors can get $ey!

    Yes
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,553
    JayMX wrote: »
    Regarding the cables, those weren’t (completely) DIY… I ain’t that skilled. I had an old 8’ piece of Kimber 8TC that I cut into chunks. Added spade lugs and some heat shrink since then. It’s no doubt overkill for a single midwoofer and single Peerless tweeter (12AWG equivalent) but it looks cool…. The stock wimpy wire was actually a little corroded near the ends, so I figured I might as well use the Kimber Kable since it had no other home.

    Here’s a shot from Kimber’s site of modern 8TC braid. Just gorgeous.
    fow37qfhl828.png

    https://kimber.com/about

    I'm not that good.....for the record 😁
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  • Jazzhead
    Jazzhead Posts: 533
    I just finished terminating some braided Kimber 12tc bulk cable (replaced 10/2 Furez) a couple of days ago. Hard on the fingers as well. I haven't listened to it for long, but so far it sounds smooth, bold, and there is a "rightness" to how instruments sound. It really showcases the phase plug improvements.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,500
    Jazzhead wrote: »
    I just finished terminating some braided Kimber 12tc bulk cable (replaced 10/2 Furez) a couple of days ago. Hard on the fingers as well. I haven't listened to it for long, but so far it sounds smooth, bold, and there is a "rightness" to how instruments sound. It really showcases the phase plug improvements.

    So you went from 198 nH/ft to 27.4 nH/ft inductance. I believe my ribbon cables are around 10 nH/ft but I don't have the ability to measure them.

    I bet you are experiencing some faster transients.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter