Common Ground Issue?

I just bought a Butler TDB 2250 Amp and it causes my SDA SRS 2.3 to make all sorts of horrible sounds with the SDA Cable connected. Sounds great when disconnected.

I am assuming it is due to not having a common but I know very little about this Amp and only slightly more how the SDA works.

Butler said "Each channel is separate. It's basically 2 monoblocks in a single chassis"

Is there a way to make it work properly with the SDA Cable? I'd hate to have to use them without the SDA, nor do I want to sell the Amp at this point.

Any ideas?
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Comments

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    You need to build a Dreadnought, which is an isolation transformer. A search here will turn up all kinds of hits.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,466
    Do not use that amp with those speakers. I've had that amp, loved it too btw. You need a dreadnaught, put that in the search bar and read up.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
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    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

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    B&k 1420
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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    If you have any specific questions during your research, don't hesitate to ask.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut wrote: »
    If you have any specific questions during your research, don't hesitate to ask.

    On a scale of 1-10, one being idiot proof and 10 being really complicated where does building one of these fall? On a handy scale I'm about a 6.5-7

    Is it possible to just buy one somewhere? I searched the classifieds and there didn't seem to be any currently for sale. I have a pin blade style SDA cable on my 2.3's
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    It's pretty darn easy. Order the 800V transformer from Avel, part #Y236906. You'll need to find an enclosure to put it in. Use non-magnetic mounting hardware. For the connections most use Neutrik SpeakOn for the enclosure and to replace the pin/blade socket on the binding post plate. I highly recommend the NLT4FX-BAG and the NL4MP-UC.

    Transformer wires are connected as follows.
    Right pin - red/yellow +
    Right blade - black/orange -
    Left pin - grey/brown +
    Left blade - blue/violet -
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,466
    edited March 19
    You might occasionally see one pop up for sale in the flea market here, but that's a rare occurrence and if you need it now, like you do, follow F1NUT's advice. Good luck to you and welcome BTW.

    You can also post in the "wanted" section for one, that's probably the fastest way to see if anyone has one laying around.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • FTGVFTGV Posts: 3,675
    edited March 19
    I just bought a Butler TDB 2250 Amp and it causes my SDA SRS 2.3 to make all sorts of horrible sounds with the SDA Cable connected. Sounds great when disconnected.

    I am assuming it is due to not having a common but I know very little about this Amp and only slightly more how the SDA works.

    Butler said "Each channel is separate. It's basically 2 monoblocks in a single chassis"

    Is there a way to make it work properly with the SDA Cable? I'd hate to have to use them without the SDA, nor do I want to sell the Amp at this point.

    Any ideas?

    Even though it's configured as a dual mono unit it doesn't appear to be a bridged/balanced design. Ask Butler if the negative speaker binding posts are at ground potential and if they can be joined together with a piece of wire to make it common ground..
  • F1nut wrote: »
    It's pretty darn easy. Order the 800V transformer from Avel, part #Y236906. You'll need to find an enclosure to put it in. Use non-magnetic mounting hardware. For the connections most use Neutrik SpeakOn for the enclosure and to replace the pin/blade socket on the binding post plate. I highly recommend the NLT4FX-BAG and the NL4MP-UC.

    Transformer wires are connected as follows.
    Right pin - red/yellow +
    Right blade - black/orange -
    Left pin - grey/brown +
    Left blade - blue/violet -

    I've been searching like crazy for a thread specifically on the exact how to build a Dreadnaught. What should I pop in the search bar and what forum?
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 16,774
    Here you go This was mine and @BDT bought it and never used it. You would not need to do anything to the binding post, plug and play.


    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/188817/800va-dreadnaught-with-case-and-cables#latest
  • pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Here you go This was mine and @BDT bought it and never used it. You would not need to do anything to the binding post, plug and play.


    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/188817/800va-dreadnaught-with-case-and-cables#latest

    I saw that and I believe I sent him a DM already. Plug and play would be awesome.
  • pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Here you go This was mine and @BDT bought it and never used it. You would not need to do anything to the binding post, plug and play.


    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/188817/800va-dreadnaught-with-case-and-cables#latest

    This is the response I received from Butler ...

    "The channels are isolated basically to prevent ground loops.
    As long as ground integrity is maintained, (- to -) you should be able to tie the 2 negative speaker posts together without damaging the amp.
    Try it out at low power levels first and if you don't get oscillation or ground loop hum, you should be good to go.
    And... not it's not a balanced output. It's single ended."

    So that sounds like a can do. Safe to use a piece of speaker wire?? I have some 14 g I could use laying around.

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 16,774
    Yes Speaker wire is fine. The 800va Dreadnought will be better in the long run. I have seen several members here who had said that strapping the negatives together introduced a little noise on some amps. The dreadnought will bring more to the table if you ever get another amp or monoblocs. You can use the dreadnought on common ground amps as well it helps with better sound for sure.


    get your read on

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/search?Search=dreadnought
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,304
    I agree
    The better way would be the dreadnought

    Rooster just sent TroyD a FB message
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
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  • pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Yes Speaker wire is fine. The 800va Dreadnought will be better in the long run. I have seen several members here who had said that strapping the negatives together introduced a little noise on some amps. The dreadnought will bring more to the table if you ever get another amp or monoblocs. You can use the dreadnought on common ground amps as well it helps with better sound for sure.


    get your read on

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/search?Search=dreadnought

    Well this will probably give me a better idea which amp I prefer more the Butler or the Denon. I will probably sell the loser. Right now I prefer the Denon but that has SDA working so not a fair comparison.

    I'm not opposed to the dreadnaught especially if I don't have to build it.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,466
    I tried this amp with Sda's, they don't jive together . The topography of the amp is not conducive to the Sda design. I'm not even sure a dreadnought would help but I never tried one with that amp.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    edited March 19
    Adding to the above, while strapping can work with some amps it doesn't sound as good as using the Dreadnought.

    Fafa.....you posted to the activity wall. To send a PM click on the user name, then click on message at the top right corner.
    Post edited by F1nut on
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • HermitismHermitism Posts: 3,198
    F1nut wrote: »
    Fafa.....you posted to the activity wall. To send a PM click on the user name, then click on message at the top right corner.
    Here you go:

    i6xvvqjhhxpk.jpg
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's pretty darn easy. Order the 800V transformer from Avel, part #Y236906. You'll need to find an enclosure to put it in. Use non-magnetic mounting hardware. For the connections most use Neutrik SpeakOn for the enclosure and to replace the pin/blade socket on the binding post plate. I highly recommend the NLT4FX-BAG and the NL4MP-UC.

    Transformer wires are connected as follows.
    Right pin - red/yellow +
    Right blade - black/orange -
    Left pin - grey/brown +
    Left blade - blue/violet -

    I've been searching like crazy for a thread specifically on the exact how to build a Dreadnaught. What should I pop in the search bar and what forum?

    This might give you some idea. This one is the custom special order 1000V transformer, but the 800V is similar.
    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/142058/a-slightly-different-take-on-the-dreadnought
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's pretty darn easy. Order the 800V transformer from Avel, part #Y236906. You'll need to find an enclosure to put it in. Use non-magnetic mounting hardware. For the connections most use Neutrik SpeakOn for the enclosure and to replace the pin/blade socket on the binding post plate. I highly recommend the NLT4FX-BAG and the NL4MP-UC.

    Transformer wires are connected as follows.
    Right pin - red/yellow +
    Right blade - black/orange -
    Left pin - grey/brown +
    Left blade - blue/violet -

    I've been searching like crazy for a thread specifically on the exact how to build a Dreadnaught. What should I pop in the search bar and what forum?

    This might give you some idea. This one is the custom special order 1000V transformer, but the 800V is similar.
    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/142058/a-slightly-different-take-on-the-dreadnought

    Thanks!
  • F1nut wrote: »
    Adding to the above, while strapping can work with some amps it doesn't sound as good as using the Dreadnought.

    Fafa.....you posted to the activity wall. To send a PM click on the user name, then click on message at the top right corner.

    Got it.
  • So binding the two posts has seemingly worked but it's too late to really test the sound quality. I'm learning towards it being a little scratchy but hard to say without some more volume. Will revisit in the morning.
    I really want to like this amp...
  • FTGVFTGV Posts: 3,675
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Here you go This was mine and @BDT bought it and never used it. You would not need to do anything to the binding post, plug and play.


    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/188817/800va-dreadnaught-with-case-and-cables#latest

    This is the response I received from Butler ...

    "The channels are isolated basically to prevent ground loops.
    As long as ground integrity is maintained, (- to -) you should be able to tie the 2 negative speaker posts together without damaging the amp.
    Try it out at low power levels first and if you don't get oscillation or ground loop hum, you should be good to go.
    And... not it's not a balanced output. It's single ended."

    So that sounds like a can do. Safe to use a piece of speaker wire?? I have some 14 g I could use laying around.
    That's what I figured. That will at least get you in the SDA game .
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,672
    If you plan to roll your own, this is the case I use:
    https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1550NBK/HM1201-ND/2211551
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,466
    So binding the two posts has seemingly worked but it's too late to really test the sound quality. I'm learning towards it being a little scratchy but hard to say without some more volume. Will revisit in the morning.
    I really want to like this amp...

    Then use it with different speakers. I've used it with Legacy Focus 20/20 speakers with very good results. Sometimes no matter what you do, certain things just don't play well together.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • tonyb wrote: »
    So binding the two posts has seemingly worked but it's too late to really test the sound quality. I'm learning towards it being a little scratchy but hard to say without some more volume. Will revisit in the morning.
    I really want to like this amp...

    Then use it with different speakers. I've used it with Legacy Focus 20/20 speakers with very good results. Sometimes no matter what you do, certain things just don't play well together.

    I've been waiting decades for these speakers so they are staying for a while...

    But after putting in 5 plus hours of listening to my favorite music I am very satisfied with the Butler. My initial concerns of scratchy at low level was due to using a Gas Station Greatest Hits CD of RUSH. I didn't realize the poor quality being it mostly plays in my car. I generally play vinyl at home but let's face it the CD is much easier to deal with while doing other things besides listening to records.
    It has endless power for my needs and has a nice neutral sound. I think my Denon POA 2800 is a little brighter but need to do a swap back.

    I figured out a way to do faster swaps back and forth so should be easier to compare. But if I never had the Denon and this was my first Amp I'd have a large smile on my face. Especially for what I paid for it.

    I'm up in the air on the dreadnaught. I can't imagine it will sound that much better???

    Thanks for all of the input!!
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,826
    It will sound better with the Dreadnought. Everyone that doubted it after installing a Dreadnought has kicked themselves for not doing it sooner.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • FTGVFTGV Posts: 3,675

    I've been waiting decades for these speakers so they are staying for a while...
    Enjoy.

  • F1nut wrote: »
    It will sound better with the Dreadnought. Everyone that doubted it after installing a Dreadnought has kicked themselves for not doing it sooner.

    Duly noted. If I can find one reasonably priced I might snatch it up. It will just be hard to swallow paying more for that than I did the amplifier.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 16,774
    I have 3x more wrapped up in my speakers 2.3tl's than my amplifier cost me....

    That one I linked to is legit and priced right if Troy ever comes up for air.
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