Do I REALLY need a ton of juice for my RTiA9's?
I know the answer is typically yes. I had a pair of RTi10's and then RTi12's and they would take all the power you could throw at it, but they were never paired with an awesome sub.
I am building a new 11-channel home theater around the RTiA line - A9's in the front, CSiA6 in center, 4x FXiA6, and 4x RT-90 in ceilings. That is a lot of speakers. However, on this particular home theater, I will be using two Rythmik F18 which are absolute beasts, and will likely cross them over at 80 Hz (in my 2 channel setup I have my Rythmik F12 crossed over at 100 Hz and sounds amazing). So with that in mind, I'd rather have the subs do the heavy lifting. Due to crossover slopes, the A9's will still play some stuff below 100Hz, but won't need the juice that they otherwise would have to deliver that sub 30 Hz bass like they did before.
So in this case, I'm thinking an 11 channel amp like the Yamaha MX-A5200 would be fine. 150 wpc in 2 channel model, about 80 wpc all channels driven (which rarely happens). Maybe a little more if they release a new amp at CES next week which I think it likely the case.
Other options are the Monolith 11X and Emotiva XPA-11. I'd prefer to skip Emotiva since, while good, are a bit bright with the RTi's (been there done that). The Yamaha sound signature is wonderful and I think is the most premium of the 3 and sounds more satisfying at a lower volume level. I haven't seen or heard the Monolith but it also looks great.
Thoughts?
I am building a new 11-channel home theater around the RTiA line - A9's in the front, CSiA6 in center, 4x FXiA6, and 4x RT-90 in ceilings. That is a lot of speakers. However, on this particular home theater, I will be using two Rythmik F18 which are absolute beasts, and will likely cross them over at 80 Hz (in my 2 channel setup I have my Rythmik F12 crossed over at 100 Hz and sounds amazing). So with that in mind, I'd rather have the subs do the heavy lifting. Due to crossover slopes, the A9's will still play some stuff below 100Hz, but won't need the juice that they otherwise would have to deliver that sub 30 Hz bass like they did before.
So in this case, I'm thinking an 11 channel amp like the Yamaha MX-A5200 would be fine. 150 wpc in 2 channel model, about 80 wpc all channels driven (which rarely happens). Maybe a little more if they release a new amp at CES next week which I think it likely the case.
Other options are the Monolith 11X and Emotiva XPA-11. I'd prefer to skip Emotiva since, while good, are a bit bright with the RTi's (been there done that). The Yamaha sound signature is wonderful and I think is the most premium of the 3 and sounds more satisfying at a lower volume level. I haven't seen or heard the Monolith but it also looks great.
Thoughts?
KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780
Comments
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What size is the room and did you file single or married?
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afterburnt wrote: »What size is the room and did you file single or married?
Big room, 18'x23'x10', dedicated theater
KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
English ton or metric ton (tonne)?
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mhardy6647 wrote: »English ton or metric ton (tonne)?
YesKEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
dang.
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@BjornB17 What AVR are you running? BTW I loved it when you whooped McEnroe!
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in my 2 channel setup I have my Rythmik F12 crossed over at 100 Hz
That's really high.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Find a used Parasound A21 used for the front 2 A9
3-chnl monolith for center and rears
Yamaha for the rest ...should keep you in budget and good for 2chnl IMHO2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
afterburnt wrote: »@BjornB17 What AVR are you running? BTW I loved it when you whooped McEnroe!
Thanks but I'm trying to put my past in my behind.
I haven't yet purchased one but either will get a RX-A3080 AVR or a CX-A5200 pre-amp. Will need a standalone amp in either case, but the 3080 can power most of the speakers but the CX-A5200 offers slightly better processing and balanced outputs for all channels and subs. Again may depend on what Yamaha presents at CES in a few days.KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
in my 2 channel setup I have my Rythmik F12 crossed over at 100 Hz
That's really high.
Yep, but with the YPAO room correction blends perfectly with my little RTiA1's.KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
txcoastal1 wrote: »Find a used Parasound A21 used for the front 2 A9
3-chnl monolith for center and rears
Yamaha for the rest ...should keep you in budget and good for 2chnl IMHO
That is a lot of different amps in one system! Parasound was on my list, and I may still consider it, but they are about 2" too long to fit in my shelf.KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
If you're planning Atmos, go with 4xRTiA1 or A3 over the FXiA6, or at the very least only use the FXi for the side surround. Back channels should be bookies, IMHO.
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RTiA1 Lower -3dB Limit 60 Hz. I'd try setting the sub at 70 Hz for less overlap and possibly less localization. But what do I know.....Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
RTiA1 Lower -3dB Limit 60 Hz. I'd try setting the sub at 70 Hz for less overlap and possibly less localization. But what do I know.....
Wouldn't you want to cross them over above the speakers F3 point? I'm not sure what it is on the A1's but I'm guessing it is more than 10 Hz about the -3db point (I may be wrong). I'll look into it.
Now back to the original question
KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 -
I think the Yamaha MXA5200 is completely fine for your setup. I also agree using all 80 watts per channel is such a rare case. Most people get caught up in more power more more more etc and actually never ever need it. Having head room is NEVER a bad idea but in most cases well blown past need more of a manly want then anything else. Who doesn't like to brag about having 200 watts per channel ( Flexes Muscles LOL).
What is missed here is the room interaction with the speakers and sub. The room is why we use 80hz crossover points and 120hz crossover for subwoofer so setting the sub to 100hz isn't to high at all. Actually when using LFE not 2 channel the LFE channel is mixed up to 120hz so cutting it at the old way of 80hz you don't replay the 81hz to 120hz signals of the LFE track correct or where it should be which is in the subwoofer.
The relationship of the room greatly effect bass performance , even with tower speakers that have the ability to play down to 30hz isn't ideal in a room as that bass placement where the main channels typically go for 2 channel playback and front left and right of a home theater setup doesn't usually equally play bass across the seating area or even the KING SEAT as I like to call the best seat in the room.
So allowing a speaker to play to 70hz now clouds the bass performance.
I think over the years of confusing information and old way of thinking and yes I'm guilty of this as I grew up in the business dating back to the 90' when we where learning about how a subwoofer is placed and how to set it up. We had THX and Dolby and thats it. Later came DTS and guidlines and training has changed greatly since then.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
RTiA1 Lower -3dB Limit 60 Hz. I'd try setting the sub at 70 Hz for less overlap and possibly less localization. But what do I know.....
Wouldn't you want to cross them over above the speakers F3 point? I'm not sure what it is on the A1's but I'm guessing it is more than 10 Hz about the -3db point (I may be wrong). I'll look into it.
Now back to the original question
From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer. I have found that most bookshelf speakers (in the appropriate sized room) sound better running full range with sub blended in.
This addressed your original question: it seems like a waste $$$ to get the 9s and then cross them over. Those babies should be running full range. And if they are, they need lots of power to get all those woofers dancing...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
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From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker<s> are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer...
On the other hand, sounds to me from that description that they have a built in first order acoustic XO (in fact, sounds like a critically damped alignment -- Qts Qtc = 0.707 -- based on the verbal description from Stereophile) and thus might be readily integrated with a subwoofer if one wished to extend the LF cutoff downward.
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Hmmm, it's all about how much you want to spend.
One question I have, do you have electrical circuits for your theater room? I'd say at least two 20a circuits is needed. Having lots of subs and amps needs lots of juice.
I do like the Yamaha pre and amp together would be fine. You could always add a bigger amp for the front 3 later if you think you need it. an A31 or Monolith 3 added in would take a lot of the load off the Yamaha amp. Running 11 speakers off a single amp is asking a lot of the amp.
I agree with going with A1/A3 over the F/X speakers for surrounds. If it was a 7.1 setup the yes the F/X are good but add in the ATMOS direct speakers are better.
My brother was here for the holiday's. He was digging my setup. He has the room and space to build a theater room and asked what I would use. Simple list
AVR; Marantz SR8012
Amp; Parasound A52+
subs; Dual SVS PB4000
He will get home price it out and then keep his 2005 AM radio setupWhen I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
mhardy6647 wrote: »...
From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker<s> are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer...
On the other hand, sounds to me from that description that they have a built in first order acoustic XO (in fact, sounds like a critically damped alignment -- Qts Qtc = 0.707 -- based on the verbal description from Stereophile) and thus might be readily integrated with a subwoofer if one wished to extend the LF cutoff downward.mhardy6647 wrote: »...
From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker<s> are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer...
On the other hand, sounds to me from that description that they have a built in first order acoustic XO (in fact, sounds like a critically damped alignment -- Qts Qtc = 0.707 -- based on the verbal description from Stereophile) and thus might be readily integrated with a subwoofer if one wished to extend the LF cutoff downward.
I think we are saying the same thing doc. I agree they can be easily integrated with a sub. What I am als I saying is that you should ideally not add an additional crossover but simply you the crossover in the sub to blend it in...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
mhardy6647 wrote: »...
From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker<s> are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer...
On the other hand, sounds to me from that description that they have a built in first order acoustic XO (in fact, sounds like a critically damped alignment -- Qts Qtc = 0.707 -- based on the verbal description from Stereophile) and thus might be readily integrated with a subwoofer if one wished to extend the LF cutoff downward.mhardy6647 wrote: »...
From stereophile’s measurements: “the Polk's low frequencies are actually flat to the point where they start to roll off, reaching –6dB at the port tuning frequency (50 hz).”
Audiophile speaker<s> are not designed to be crossed over but rather are carefully designed to be able to play their designated range and then roll off as to not damage the Woofer...
On the other hand, sounds to me from that description that they have a built in first order acoustic XO (in fact, sounds like a critically damped alignment -- Qts Qtc = 0.707 -- based on the verbal description from Stereophile) and thus might be readily integrated with a subwoofer if one wished to extend the LF cutoff downward.
I think we are saying the same thing doc. I agree they can be easily integrated with a sub. What I am als I saying is that you should ideally not add an additional crossover but simply you the crossover in the sub to blend it in...
Right, Gotcha. Yes, I'd concur. Sorry, I must've read right through that!
(not the first time)
I run the subwoofer at my house the same way, as a matter of fact.
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If you want to hear what they can do 200 watts.
