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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    I think @mhardy6647 summed it up a while back regarding the tube manufacturers, IIRC it was either malfeasance or shenanigans, or both! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
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    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    edited January 2020
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    most GE tubes had the glass laser etched with the brand it would NEVER go away.

    I think they were etched with acid (e.g., hydrofluoric acid or maybe fuming nitric acid) -- or possibly alkali; lasers were pretty high-tech in most of the vacuum tube era. Actually, the LASER was invented in 1960 (its microwave equivalent, the MASER, comes from the 1950s, IIRC) -- and they were pretty much out of the mainstream until comparatively recent times.
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    I'm a relative nube with tubes,what is the seal on the exhaust tip?

    :)

    So -- vacuum tubes start out as... just tubes. Fulla air.
    They're evacuated after they're assembled and the tube used to exhaust the air is sealed to produce that little tip on the top of the tube. The tube is heat sealed and cut or broken off to form the final tube, avec vacuum.
    I was gonna just call it a n-ip-p-le, but Vanilla doesn't like that kind of talk! :p

    Here's a before picture of the glass envelope for a miniature tube, from RCA Receiving Tube Manual RC-20

    18i36rlh932i.png

    http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/RC20.pdf
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    I just found my eye loop. It appears,from the scarce markings,I believe a red label Sylvania. The plates are identical to the green label Sylvania 12at7's I have.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    I just found my eye loop. It appears,from the scarce markings,I believe a red label Sylvania. The plates are identical to the green label Sylvania 12at7's I have.

    Bing Bing Bing! What do I win? :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Gotta laugh @mhardy6647 as I saw those too. Re-branded GE's? How ironic. :smile:
    52v9likr5kjb.png
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    It's too bad that Thomas Mayer doesn't - yet - have a blog post on 12AT7s. :)

    http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/


    Oh, while I am wasting forum bandwidth, and FWIW, this is my personal favorite resource to "recommend" to someone who knows zilch about vacuum tubes (for hifi) but wants to know at least a little.

    http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

    c0duwaeaz9c6.png




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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    verb wrote: »
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    I just found my eye loop. It appears,from the scarce markings,I believe a red label Sylvania. The plates are identical to the green label Sylvania 12at7's I have.

    Bing Bing Bing! What do I win? :smile:

    A huge THANK YOU! Sorry, I'm not a rich man!
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    It's too bad that Thomas Mayer doesn't - yet - have a blog post on 12AT7s. :)

    http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/


    Oh, while I am wasting forum bandwidth, and FWIW, this is my personal favorite resource to "recommend" to someone who knows zilch about vacuum tubes (for hifi) but wants to know at least a little.

    http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

    c0duwaeaz9c6.png




    Thanks for the link! I'll be doing some reading.
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    J/K brother! Hopefully we can ride together someday! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    I truly want to thank all you folks for taking the time to help me sort this out! This is the reason I joined this forum. It's quite obvious you are good eggs!

    Ray
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    verb wrote: »
    J/K brother! Hopefully we can ride together someday! :smile:

    That would be VERY cool!!
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    edited January 2020
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    My guess is 12AT7. Sylvania construction, could be branded differently.
    jh1b7i237kb1.png
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-12AT7-VINTAGE-TUBE-Black-Box-PLate-O-Getter-TV-7-Superb/254220204175?hash=item3b30b4788f:g:CIsAAOSw3udcza2a

    I think you're on to something,however the mystery tubes sound so different from the green label sylvania's. I'm very perplexed!!!

    Green labeled Sylvania tubes suck. If you want to try a 5751 in your pre look for yellow labeled Sylvania from the late '50's. Sweeeeet!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    F1nut wrote: »
    TEAforONE wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    My guess is 12AT7. Sylvania construction, could be branded differently.
    jh1b7i237kb1.png
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-12AT7-VINTAGE-TUBE-Black-Box-PLate-O-Getter-TV-7-Superb/254220204175?hash=item3b30b4788f:g:CIsAAOSw3udcza2a

    I think you're on to something,however the mystery tubes sound so different from the green label sylvania's. I'm very perplexed!!!

    Green labeled Sylvania tubes suck.

    Were they manufactured differently?
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    Yes
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    edited January 2020
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yes

    I found... a graph about this (well... sort of)... on the internet.
    :)

    i2n4hr6p22vq.png
    https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/thats-a-sylvania-tube-the-print-is-green-no-its-blue/

    In other tube news, here's another look at the innards of a 9-pin miniature pentode tube :)
    This diagram calls out the exhaust nip tip
    z6sgktdfznhj.png
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    edited January 2020
    That is so odd,but very informative. Thanks for da link!
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,546
    Interesting link Mark, thanks.

    I should have been more specific in my green label sucks comment. I was referring to 5751's.

    I have used Sylvania green label 6111 and am currently using 6112 green label sub miniature tubes, which sound fine. I also have used gold label Sylvania 6112, which I didn't care for.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    Alrighty! I just grabbed a pair of Sylvania 12at7's,black plate O getters. And yesterday I purchased a pair of Amperex Holland 12ax7's. I should be set for a while. :D:D
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    F1nut wrote: »
    Interesting link Mark, thanks.

    I should have been more specific in my green label sucks comment. I was referring to 5751's.

    I have used Sylvania green label 6111 and am currently using 6112 green label sub miniature tubes, which sound fine. I also have used gold label Sylvania 6112, which I didn't care for.

    You did in fact say that in the post prior to the one I quoted; I bumbled across the link I posted looking for pictures of different Sylvania branded 12AT7s. :)
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2020
    @mhardy6647 What a great site Mark! Thank you!

    I now understand microphonics! :smile: Gotta get me a rubber mallet! Tiny one of course!

    Lots of great information in there!

    https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    I have some microphonics goin' on in a preamp I am trying to rehab this week -- 12AU7s.

    If you get a good (bad), really microphonic tube (7199s were/are notorious, e.g.) -- have some fun, and sing into it with no program source playin'. :)

    I am very easily amused.
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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    What do microphonics sound like?
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    edited January 2020
    Like a microphone :|

    In a powered-up component with zero signal being reproduced but at some nonzero volume setting, tap a microphonic tube - typically a small signal tube, and often in a high gain circuit stage - with a stick or fingertip, and you'll hear the sound, dutifully amplified and reproduced through the loudspeaker(s).


    EDIT: Google & YT turned up mostly gee-tar amps with microphonic power (output) tubes, but in hifi (IMO/IME) it's usually the preamp tubes (or splitters) that are the most salient culprits... here is one OK video that at least demonstrates an effect of microphonic tubes.

    https://youtu.be/1zT10_ztHYA
    it's the last two tubes that get tapped :)


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  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,026
    That makes perfect sense. Thank you!
    See my profile for list of gear.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    That plate structure screams 12AT7,
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    heiney9 wrote: »
    That plate structure screams 12AT7,

    Must be microphonic then.

    :#

    I know what Maude would say to me for posting the above...

    pzlwsred6g4z.png

    (I mean, heck, she wouldn't know my name wasn't Walter...)

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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,441
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    Hard to say really. From what I've learned, a lot of history out there where manufacturers made tubes for one another, others removed the original labeling and post applied their own, you name it.

    Here's an example of the same tubes, Sylvania manufactured (except for double layer mica on top), labeled as Motorola.
    g0d851oxg5wo.png

    and yet that laser etching on the far right one screams to me GE. Except it is missing dots that GE also used.

    I retract this statement as I just looked at my early mid 40's and mid 50's Sylvania 6sn7's and yes they are etched and look the same except they say 6sn7 USA :smile:
    Yep Doc got to give you credit no laser more like acid as you stated. Long terrible day at work I was mush brained to think they had used lasers way back when.
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Like a microphone :|

    In a powered-up component with zero signal being reproduced but at some nonzero volume setting, tap a microphonic tube - typically a small signal tube, and often in a high gain circuit stage - with a stick or fingertip, and you'll hear the sound, dutifully amplified and reproduced through the loudspeaker(s).


    EDIT: Google & YT turned up mostly gee-tar amps with microphonic power (output) tubes, but in hifi (IMO/IME) it's usually the preamp tubes (or splitters) that are the most salient culprits... here is one OK video that at least demonstrates an effect of microphonic tubes.

    https://youtu.be/1zT10_ztHYA
    it's the last two tubes that get tapped :)


    Thanks Doc for sharing this. Learned a lot today! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    edited January 2020
    I'll make a tape of me tappin' on the 12AU7 in the aforementioned preamp and share it here --- anon. If I get really ambitious, maybe even a video.

    We do have the technology.

    B)


    2x0jofa5r4tz.png
    (actual source: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/RCA/RCA-1963-Television-Cameras.pdf)
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Very cool Doc! But where is the digital converter? :smile:
    ppdfzbreyxq0.png
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
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