room correction or treatments

thejck

My speaker locations are fixed and not flexible. My understanding of room treatments is building/buying reflection panels and installing them at the particular reflection points based on your main listening area. Am I missing something?

Last night I let my receiver audyssey do its thing for my rti12's.. and I was impressed at how much better they sounded.
When I turned on my SDA's in the same room but thought a seperate 2 channel preamp (instead of the receiver) I was extremely disappointed. I actually enjoyed the rti12's more.
I have put a lot of work into this SDA's so unless something has gone horribly wrong (bad caps?) I feel like I should be able to get a LOT more out of them compared to the rti12's.

My room is a large L shaped with the left side more open than the right. I feel my room reflection panel options are limited plus getting my wife to agree to them will need some work.

Can anyone give me some direction? should I consider using some sort of equalizer or room correction for my 2 channel pre?

erniejade

From my experience, SDA and DSP isn't too good of a mix. Others might have had a better experience with it but me, not so much. I did have a set of rti12 for quite a while. They responded extremely well to DSP.



What did you enjoy more with on the rti12 on the receiver vs sda's ?

thejck

everything seems to be precise and clear. it was just pleasant to listen too. on the contrast the sda's sounded harsh and almost like it was causing ear fatigue. it might be explained by certain room mode caused by frequencies bouncing around?
like a kind or reverberation causing my ear drums to feel unpleasant.

Derf

thejck wrote: »

Can anyone give me some direction? should I consider using some sort of equalizer or room correction for my 2 channel pre?

Check out gikacoustics, they have free design advice. They also have “designer” panels, and some you can customize with your own pics.

txcoastal1

What SDA’s and have you performed any upgrades, ie upgraded tweeters, caps etc

thejck

1.2 TL's - did gimpod? new boards. larry's rings, sonic caps, even replaced the low inductor per some thread that DK had.. lots of different tweaks.
rd0 tweeters too btw.

Just feels like it needs to be tamed somehow


On a side note for my recevier surround setup (rti12) i realized that audessey was killing a lot of the sub 80 bass. turned it off in the eq setting and found a lot more low end stuff.

so i guess i am going to try REW and try to manully set the eq points myself to try to ge the best of both worlds?

kharp1

The panels you speak of are only one type of treatment. Those are absorptive. There is also refractive, and, bass treatments. There are also, or was at one time, active treatments that cancelled out unwanted signals. You can start with trial and error, place a few panels at different points and sed what it does for your sound, or, you can use a program to analyze your rooms waves and see what you need to correct.

thejck

i have been reading about these panels. and i have also seen those egg carton shaped panels. i think the most I would be able to do would me some panels. My wife probably wont let me do much more than that.

My room is a giant L. so the main listening area is about 22x16 with the speakers sitting along the 22 feet wall. the sda's are the 6? inches from the back wall and 3 feet from the side walls. and they are equal distance to my main listening spot.
Behind my listening row of seats the L shape opens up into a smaller 12x12 area and then that opens up into a hallway that wraps around the stairs.

how many panels would I need to start with to be able to dial this in. or should i just go with the EQ route? what does EQ do to the SDA's?

thejck

i think they are about 10 feet between them. i will double check. i know that is not ideal. the manual says 8 feet?

thejck

this is my room. i am looking for some ideas on where to start with room treaments.
the right wall in front of the windows and the door is covered in wall to wall blackout curtains. i could built and install a panel into the window well's because the curtains are always shut. but the placement is limited to the window location.

i can add some panels to the left wall by the speaker in the 1st and second reflection points?

i probably should add something to the wall that is on the right adjacent to the listening position. but what? reflection panels?

should i add anything else in the area behind the listening position?

Lostsoul123

I would bring your speakers closer together. Try 8' to 10' apart and bring in your listening point so your head is about 10 to 12 ft from the speaker plane. I'm also guessing your floors are not carpeted? this will kill alot of SDA effect. also you have alot of reflection from the right side but not so from the left so things will seem harsh and overpowering in your right ear. Try some sound absorption room treatments on the right wall between the door and windows (tapestry?) and behind you and maybe a false wall like office dividers on your left behind the sofa to equalize thing.

F1nut

The SDA's are too far apart, 6 to 8 feet and move your seat closer. Drapes over the windows will help a lot as will carpet.

Are the SDA's spiked? What pre amp and amp? Cables? Did you replace the polyswitch with a 0.5 ohm resistor?

gmcman

Something else to add....do you have low ceilings? The 1.2's are tall, thinking maybe if you have 8' ceilings you could be getting a boost from your 1st reflection on the ceiling.

thejck

i have 9 feet ceilings.
using a parasound p3 preamp and a parasound hca3500 amp. My dac is something i want to replace, lite audio 68. I am wondering if this is the problem. will explain in a second

floors are carpeted. i will bring the speakers closer. Unfortunately the closest I can do is 10 feet. I have a projector screen in the way :-(. My speakers are spiked. Has anyone designed a solution to move the speakers around the room easier? For example I dont use these when watching movies so I could potentially bring them closer together when listening to music.

I am a big DIY'er and my budget is tight. Can i build these acoustic panels myself? this would be handy cause some of my panels would need to be non-standard sizes. I see a lot of info about using rockwool that is cheaper that the Owens Corning 703. Any thoughts on what material to buy? roxul?

So last night I was using REW to measure each speaker in my surround setup. the rti12. i measured them both with and without audessey turned on for the equalizer. i noticed NO difference in the graphs. I am so confused as to what the hell it is ever doing. I would imagine I would have seen a diff.

I need to test this theory that maybe its not even the equalizer but my preamp-amp-cables in my 2 channel setup that are bad? I am going to try to eliminate each piece of equipment by trying to use my receiver to drive the 2 channel amp to see if it causes a difference instead of the p3 and dac.

I guess process of elimination.

However if anyone has some info on building sound absorption panels i would like to start researching this please.

THanks for all the suggestions.

afterburnt

gmcman wrote: »

Something else to add....do you have low ceilings? The 1.2's are tall, thinking maybe if you have 8' ceilings you could be getting a boost from your 1st reflection on the ceiling.

This gots me to thinnin about my room. I got a ceiling that slopes front to rear from like 8 feet to damn near 20 feet. Is it the case that the angle is so oblique that the ceiling is not a perceived reflection point?

afterburnt

@thejck sorry about the jack, I just read your last line and thought you were done.

SCompRacer

thejck wrote: »

I am a big DIY'er and my budget is tight. Can i build these acoustic panels myself? this would be handy cause some of my panels would need to be non-standard sizes. I see a lot of info about using rockwool that is cheaper that the Owens Corning 703. Any thoughts on what material to buy? roxul?

Yes you can.

You may get different answers regarding mineral wool (rock wool) and Owens Corning 703. The folks linked below say it's near the same. Cover it with a fabric that does not reflect sound. Guilford of Maine is one such fabric available in all sorts of colors.

Build a frame out of 1 x 4's. The ones you buy usually use select grade lumber that's nice and straight. Price everything first and then compare.

https://www.atsacoustics.com/blog/oc703-vs-mineral-wool-acoustic-panels.html

thejck

I need to see if i can find the Roxul AFB (mineral wool) locally.

that is comparable to Owens Corning 703,

i was able to find Roxul Rockboard 80 locally. but i am not sure if its as good.

the 80 stuff says "Plus: Excellent low freq sound absorption. Lower cost than 705. Good strength and rigidity. Minus: Does not absorb mid to high frequencies quite as well as Rockboard 60."

maxward

I built four panels from rock wool. The package included eight 2’x4’x3.5” pieces for about $55.00. Then got 1”x4” pine boards at the same local lumber store and some black burlap from the fabric store. Total cost was about $140. I later recovered them with an off white fabric because I was told that the black burlap sucked all the light from the room. Subsequently, we had to watch our son’s cat for a bit and she ravaged them. They wouldn’t show this so much if they were black. I’m happy with the results because the speakers are in front of windows without drapes that can be closed. The corner ones are double thickness. The ones that are hanging are only about 13 pounds and use two simple picture hanger each. A tip: I stapled fishing line diagonally over the front and back to keep the rock wool in place before I got around to covering them. A picture is in the “Showcase your Setups” thread on page two.

Viking64

thejck wrote: »

I need to see if i can find the Roxul AFB (mineral wool) locally.

that is comparable to Owens Corning 703,

i was able to find Roxul Rockboard 80 locally. but i am not sure if its as good.

the 80 stuff says "Plus: Excellent low freq sound absorption. Lower cost than 705. Good strength and rigidity. Minus: Does not absorb mid to high frequencies quite as well as Rockboard 60."

What they don't tell you about that $hit is that it is the itchiest stuff known to mankind.

My brother is an insulation contractor and his employees who don't even wear masks to install fiberglass won't even TOUCH it. They simply refuse to.

And I sure wouldn't want it anywhere in my house. Particularly if it wasn't sheetrocked over and sealed permanently with mud (joint compound).

It's also not very resilient. It tends to break easily.

Lostsoul123

afterburnt wrote: »

gmcman wrote: »

Something else to add....do you have low ceilings? The 1.2's are tall, thinking maybe if you have 8' ceilings you could be getting a boost from your 1st reflection on the ceiling.

This gots me to thinnin about my room. I got a ceiling that slopes front to rear from like 8 feet to damn near 20 feet. Is it the case that the angle is so oblique that the ceiling is not a perceived reflection point?

I've got the same (but not so steep) vaulted ceiling in my room. I think it helps minimize near field reflections from above as long as there's some type of trap behind you. Your angle though may be steep enough where if you have the opposite ceiling angle behind you, sound could bounce back to your listening position. Could be bad, could be a cool way to have surround sound if you found the ideal sweet spot...

Dr_Wu

I made rockwool panels for my room, and they improved the sound tremendously. They absorb sound waves and cut down on echo and ringing. Hang on reflective surfaces throughout the room: behind the speakers, behind the listening spot, and on the sides between the listening spot and the speakers. Feel free to experiment, too. I may try one more as a "cloud" suspended from the ceiling at the reflection point between my seat and the speakers.

You can buy a bundle of 6 4'x1.5' rockwool panels, and mount them to frames made out of 1"x2" wooden strips. Wrap them in a light fabric that will let the sound waves pass through easily. I used cotton sheets. There are several different youtube vids showing the process. Cost was less than $50 at Lowes.

thejck

what material did you buy from lowe's? i want to make sure i am not buying the wrong rockwool. aparently there are diff kinds

Gardenstater

I see only one selection at my Home Depot and Lowes and it seems to be the same 1.5" thick, 2ft x 4ft, R6 Rock wool panel. I'm kind of shocked that each panel supposedly weighs 8 lbs, since there are 6 per package, total weight 48 lbs. I'm wondering if this stuff is a bit too dense for good sound absorption of all audio frequencies. If I try it in my room I will double up on the thickness I believe. Skeptical that the weight is accurate:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/ROCKWOOL-ComfortBoard-IS-1-1-2-in-x-2-ft-x-4-ft-R-6-Insulated-Sheathing-Board-6-Piece-Pack-RXCB11224/206789748

https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-Comfortboard-80-R-6-Stone-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-24-in-W-x-48-in-L/1000339775

Lostsoul123

Lots to choose from here...

https://www.parts-express.com/cat/acoustic-foam-wall-treatments/1907

afterburnt

Lostsoul123 wrote: »

afterburnt wrote: »

gmcman wrote: »

Something else to add....do you have low ceilings? The 1.2's are tall, thinking maybe if you have 8' ceilings you could be getting a boost from your 1st reflection on the ceiling.

This gots me to thinnin about my room. I got a ceiling that slopes front to rear from like 8 feet to damn near 20 feet. Is it the case that the angle is so oblique that the ceiling is not a perceived reflection point?

I've got the same (but not so steep) vaulted ceiling in my room. I think it helps minimize near field reflections from above as long as there's some type of trap behind you. Your angle though may be steep enough where if you have the opposite ceiling angle behind you, sound could bounce back to your listening position. Could be bad, could be a cool way to have surround sound if you found the ideal sweet spot...

My apologies to the op for mucking the thread but I don't think this warrants a whole thread. @Lostsoul123 do you find your room to be satisfactory or did you to implement remedial accoutrements? I can't evaluate my room as I do not have my real system there yet.

Jack off.

Lostsoul123

My setup isn't ideal but I do have carpet, cloth furniture, drapes and a few items left and right of my listening position to absorb reflections. I think the vaulted ceiling helps as well.

machone767

https://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/

This is where I bought all my insulation.

Dr_Wu

https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-COMFORTBATT-R-15-Stone-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-15-25-in-W-x-47-in-L/3388304

Here's the stuff. Keeps its shape, but you can compress and dent it, so handle it gently. Wear gloves. The weight is accurate, but the finished panels are safely hung on a couple of nails. 3-1/2" thick is a good density and gives good absorption. The wood frames are important, as they hold the insulation away from the wall.

Here's an easy way to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spg4y5_zsMs

Dr_Wu

FWIW, I used the panels without the foil moisture barrier.

thejck

ok, i tried to do a few A+B tests between the rti12's and the SDA's.
turned on audessey. But I decided to switch XLR cables coming out the receiver into each amp to drive each set of speakers. To keep things accurate I used an SPL meter to measure both sets of speakers so I could set the receiver to the appropriate volume.

Did some blind tests with a bunch of friends. The results and my opinions are all over the place. For some tracks the SDA's were miles ahead. Some the RTI12 shone.
Personally I think the rti12's have a bit more base and brightness that might be considered crispness.
The SDA's have a wider soundstage and seem to have more richer notes and a more melow sound. Its like the SDA's do mids a lot more.
But I think that with different tracks I am getting different impressions.

I am wondering if SPL values have anything to do with it? Is it possible that at a higher volume the SDA's shine more than the rti12's?
So if a song has a higher SPL level its going to make the SDA's stand out?

I am so confused. and do not know which way to do. I am guessing the DAC is a weak link. and Probably some room treatment will do wonders for improving the enveloping feeing of the SDA's