Weak bass on RTi12's?

mantis

bigsexy1,

No, you don't offend me, but for anyone to say that either the 150s or the 12s lack in bass is an almost foolish statement that is at the very least amusing.

So your now calling me a fool.I have no ability to judge a speaker by listening to it.Not to mention I'm amusing you with my demo............nice way to apologize.

So you want to know what speakers I feel don't lack bass.In my opnion not many.Most speakers don't play full range nor have the ability to reproduce true clean deep bass.
Dynaudio is one company that can reproduce deep bass.Another is Martin Logan.B&W can as well.Lets see Def Tech can,Thiel can,Viena can,Sonus Fabers,Dunlavy,Krell speakers,MacIntosh speakers,ToTem's have wonder low end,need I continue???

What you are missing here is what I heard,what room I was listening in,what music I was listening 2,etc.

You ask about the Lsi15's why???Because I own them?They reproduce cleaner bass then the 12's do,they 2 however lack the ability to reproduce deep bass.Sound much better then anything in the rt series of today and into anywhere in the past.The Lsi series is in my opnion the very best sounding line polk has ever made.My opnion and right to it I am.

I don't want to argue this with you with comments like foolish,crack pot and any other personal remarks you wish to use.Wanna talk about your experiences with the 12's then fine,I'm game,anymore personal attacks and I'm out of this conversation.I have no time for that.none.

A speakers ability to reproduce quality sound is personal. I for one am very picky when it comes to speakers.I judge them for what they cost compared to others,built quality,sound quality.If a speaker annoys me in any way,they are not for me.If I find a certain level of personal movement then a curosity is heightened.The Rti12's didn't Impress me.I'm hoping after a good break in they will.For now there not on my top 100 list.

Again time will tell.

Dan

VR3

Mcintosh

Def Tech has frickin amazing low end. (considering almost all of their speakers have a built in subwoofer, powered) Their monster center with a built in 10 inch sub...friggin awesome. The tower with 18 inch subs and 1,000 watts of juice! FRIGGIN KILLER!

I heard a TOTL def tech system, all around - 10 inch subs in the surrounds (side and rear), 10 inch sub in the center, 18 inch sub in the mains, then a seperate Def Tech sub for the LFE channel.....

That was probally the most bass I have ever heard in a movie. The mains dig down to like 13hz......AWESOME stuff

Now Martin Logan is another I agree with...pretty killer.

The RTi12, with a 200 watt Conrad Johnson......the bass output, soundstage, high end, depth, everything (to me) was a HUGE let down. But then again, I was sitting out of the sweetspot. The bass though, still wasnt all that good.

BS,
How do you like the RTi8? Have you compared it to the RTi10 or RTi12?

bigsexy1

Dan, I did not mean to call you a fool if that's the way it came across.

Look, you are entitled to your own opinion just as much as anyone else is to their's. Everybody's got one you know?

But I believe you will find that your's on this particular situation about the 12s and/or 150s lacking bass even when provided with enough power is going to be in the distinct minority. I seem to vaugely recall a post by you recently stating that a Denon 3803 was enough to drive a set of 12s. Well, believe me, it's not!

How much music is actually below 40 hz anyway? Pipe organs for sure, but what else? A low E note on a bass guitar is not.

I don't know what you are used to, but my God man ....!?!

bigsexy1

Sid, there is a HUGE difference between the 8s and the 12s (provided the 12s have enough power), but then again, for the price, it ought to be. Although I lucked out and got my pair of 12s for $800 ($400 each).

I do feel that the 8s and the 12s are an upgrade over the 70s and 150s. Not jaw dropping, but definite nonetheless.

I have my 12s biamped with each speaker having it's own NAD C270 bridged in mono driving the woofers (300 watts per channel), along with another NAD C270 driving the tweets/mids (120 watts per).

The 8s are driven by a Denon 3803 crossed over at 80 HZ with a SVS PB2 Plus.

PolkWannabie

Martin Logan's ?! You're kidding right ? ... Fantastic mids and highs, maybe the best I've every heard, but the low end although clean is totally limp.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by ATCVenom
Do they lack bass? In most real-world, affordable common market products, yes, they do.Sean

What does this mean ? What products ? The amps necessary to drive them ?

PolkWannabie

I don't think anyone ever questioned this except some who thought they could adaquetly power them with a pseudo 100 wpc receiver.

In your own situation with the 15's it's more or less the same, isn't it ? or do you consider Marsh separates to be "most real-world, affordable common market products".

It's always been about mix and match, hasn't it ?

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'll chime in and say that I don't see the lack of bass with the 150s or 12s, and honestly don't see how one can have that observation of them...maybe it's just a matter of room size, placement, etc that's making my 150s sound so good...

And I'm running modest power to them, got ~100 'receiver' watts on the mids and highs and 100 watts on the lows from an HK PA2000, so it's not like I'm throwing 300 or 400 watts at them...

At the very beginning of T3 when John is talking and there's that big explosion, my TV screen was shaking and the bass literally knocked a picture off the wall...pretty amazing stuff.

gregure

In regards to the earlier post mentioning Def Tech speakers with 10" powered subs built into every channel speaker, I think it's a bit unfair to compare the 12's with a surround sound setup utilizing 6 10" subwoofers. Of course that's going to out perform a set of towers standard towers. Plus, what's the cost differential between Polk and Def Tech? I'm assuming thousands...?

PolkWannabie

One could make the same point regarding most of the speakers in the list that was referenced i.e. Dynaudio, Martin Logan, B&W, Def Tech, Thiel, Viena, Sonus Fabers, Dunlavy, Krell, MacIntosh, ToTem's ...

There aren't a lot of cheapo or even mid ?! priced speakers in the top end of those lines.

So as the saying goes, ya pays your money and ya takes yer choice.

PolkWannabie

Catching on ?! ...

Come talk to me again after you've been playing with this hobby for 40+ years.

PolkWannabie

Just a reaction to your silly remark of catching on ...

PolkWannabie

Noted, except that usually remarks like this when meant in jest in forums and emails are succeeded with an appropriate smiley of some sort to make that obvious ...

In any case, although my opinion differs from yours about the bass response of the 12's when properly fed, I don't see where I discredited anyone’s experience with anything.

Tsayid

I just got off the phone with my guy at Tweeter, and found out that the RTi12's were being played through a Denon 2803, which was putting out 90 watts per channel. Obviously not enough to effectively drive them, which explains the perceived lack of bass.

I talked to him for a while about options for when I choose to upgrade to the 12's, and he suggested that when the time comes I get a 2 channel B&K amp rated at 125 watts to run both the highs and lows of the 12's, and that that should be enough to run them effectively.

Anyone have some opinions on that?

Emlyn

I'd still suggest that 125 watts per channel isn't enough to be ideal even from a separate two channel amplifier. I'd suggest at least 200 watts per channel, but preferably biamp the speakers with 400 or 500 watts per speaker to get them to perform up their design potential.

I've used a Rotel RMB-1075 (120 watts per channel x5) amp and a B&K 7270 (200 watts per channel x7) and the sound was greatly improved by biamping the speakers. The same is true with both RTi150s and RTi12s.

Dr. Spec

And I'm running modest power to them, got ~100 'receiver' watts on the mids and highs and 100 watts on the lows from an HK PA2000, so it's not like I'm throwing 300 or 400 watts at them...

Actually, it is, considering the woofer amp you are using.

The typical AVR can only deliver its rated power into one channel, and as the channels add up, the power output drops.

This is usually not a problem when driving several 8 ohm speakers set to small in a HT application. Not all the speakers require power at the same time, and high SPL can be achieved from the midrange and tweeters without a lot of current draw from the amp stage.

Throw a bunch of 7" woofers in the mix and suddenly the impedance gets more reactive and lower, the current draw goes way up, and the amp starts to sweat badly. Overall available power output per channel drops dramatically, and the typical 100 watt AVR might be down to 50-60 clean watts per channel under this type of load.

I would conservatively estimate your hook-up method of using the AVR for the mids/highs (smart move) and the high current PA2000 for the woofers (another smart move) gives you at least 8 dB of additional clean bass peak headroom over your AVR alone.

I talked to him for a while about options for when I choose to upgrade to the 12's, and he suggested that when the time comes I get a 2 channel B&K amp rated at 125 watts to run both the highs and lows of the 12's, and that that should be enough to run them effectively.

Probably adequate considering B&K's well deserved reputation for high current capacity. Two would be better for a bi-amp, though - use one for the bottom end, and one for the top end (four channels total).

cfrizz

I just found out last friday when I added my Parasound amp to drive my 14 yr old polks that they were being terribly under driven by my Denon 3802 receivers 110 watts.

I am now a convert to at least partial separates. If you have a good pair of speakers they should have their own separate power supply so that they have what they need to give you their full capability.

My Denon has more than enough to drive all of my other speakers, but it can't really do justice to all of them. But I didn't know this until I got the amp. I got it in preparation to upgrade my Polks to the LSi 15's, now I am going to put that off since mine are now showing me their true power!

trend1

Tsayid. I went the 12's! These speakers need to be broken in when you get them home! My Denon 3802 did not have enough power to drive these speakers properly so I went with a pair of Outlaw M-Blocks and they made a huge difference.

Tony