Weak bass on RTi12's?

Tsayid

Hello all!

I've been considering a purchase of Polk speakers for a couple weeks now, and had the oppurtunity to listen to a pair of RTi8's and RTi12's last night and A/B them.

My initial reaction on hearing them was that the 8's seemed to put out a LOT more bass than the 12's, but the 12's were much clearer in the mid and high ranges, with tighter but less bass.

I suspect there was an issue with placement of both the 12's and the 8's, as the set of 8's was pretty boxed into a corner and could have been amplifying the bass due to its position, but the 12's seemed to be placed right, and to be honest I was a bit disappointed by the bass output on them.

Does anyone have any insight on why the 12's would have so much noticeably less? The store I was at didn't have any LSi15's yet, which could also conceivably fit my budget. I can't wait to hear them!

Pauly

what avr where they running off? i demoed them when they first hit the local CC and they sounded pretty good but then again they were hooked up to on the the Onkyo big boy AVR's. If they had a crappy amp running it then there you go..those puppies take up to 500watts vs the 8's 250 watts so will take more power to get them going and sounding good.

AsSiMiLaTeD

It almost sounds like you've got the two speakers mixed up, as the stuff you mentioned about each are the opposite...

Anyway, you'll hear this alot...the 12s need LOTS of power to do them justice, where were you listening? What kind of source were they hooked up to?

Even though the 12s need lots of power, I'm surprised that the 8s have LOTS more bass, regardless of placement...

I'd suspect that they may not have the 12s hooked up right (i.e. only have the top speaker terminals connected with no jumper to the bottoms...

Tsayid

Unfortunately I don't know what kind of receiver they were running them through. Something that I'll definitely have to check on when I go back again.

In terms of what I'd be running them on eventually... I plan on upgrading my current receiver to a Denon 3805 which would put out 120 watts to all channels. Would that be enough to power those 12's or would I have to go to a seperate amp for more power? Basically what I'm asking is what is the amount of power I should "plan" for assuming I don't have an astronomical budget but still want them to sound nice with good, deep bass.

All these questions... sorry

Funny thing Polkmaniac... I actually triple checked to make sure we were listening to the ones he said we were since I was so confused as to the sound difference. Very bizarre.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Tsayid
In terms of what I'd be running them on eventually... I plan on upgrading my current receiver to a Denon 3805 which would put out 120 watts to all channels. Would that be enough to power those 12's or would I have to go to a seperate amp for more power? Basically what I'm asking is what is the amount of power I should "plan" for assuming I don't have an astronomical budget but still want them to sound nice with good, deep bass.

All these questions... sorry

Funny thing Polkmaniac... I actually triple checked to make sure we were listening to the ones he said we were since I was so confused as to the sound difference. Very bizarre.

There's not a receiver manufactured that I'm aware of that will power those 12s to their potential...you should plan on bi-amping those with 200WPC of good power on the lows and 100WPC of good power on the highs...at least. That 3805 will do nicely for the highs, you'd just need to add another amp for the lows...

Did you happen to check if the jumpers were connected on the back of the speakers?

Tsayid

Hmm... I remember looking at the back of them briefly but I don't remember at all whether or not the jumpers were run properly or not. I'll give the guy a call today and see if he can check.

AsSiMiLaTeD

What store were you at?

Tsayid

It's a Tweeter. My salesguy is very knowledgeable about things so I doubt that the jumpers are the problem, but you never know... anyone can make a mistake

Emlyn

Interesting that the RT series is in Tweeter. I thought it was just going to be the LSi series.

My guess is that the RTi12s were being run with a filter setting inappropriate for the speakers. The RTi12s should be run full range, preferably with separate amplification for the subwoofer section. The RTi12 design is a sealed enclosure containing a mid-high array and an integrated subwoofer enclosure containing three 7" subwoofer drivers. The internal subwoofer crossover for the RTi12 is set at 120hz which is unusually low. Couldn't the lack of bass could be attributed to a receiver's filter being set so that the subwoofer drivers aren't being driven fully?

The RTi12 should have significantly more bass impact than the RTi8 depending on how they're set up.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Emlyn
Interesting that the RT series is in Tweeter. I thought it was just going to be the LSi series.

Yes interesting...looks like I'll be heading in there tonight...

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Tsayid
My initial reaction on hearing them was that the 8's seemed to put out a LOT more bass than the 12's, but the 12's were much clearer in the mid and high ranges, with tighter but less bass.

I have a set of 12's in a secondary listening area. They used to be in my primary HT area and only within the past month or so have been replaced. They are HARDLY short of bass when properly powered. They'll take 500 wpc continuous so if some store is trying to drive them with some receiver with some dubious measurement of wpc then hey ... it's like asking why that Viper can only do 45 mph when the pedal is only pushed down 10%.

Tsayid

Yup, the Tweeter that I go to regularly just got the Polks in and set up in the showroom, and it looks like they're going to have a lot of what Polk offers. RT series, LS Series, and all the associated surrounds and centers, as well as several bookshelf models that I saw.

I had to wait impatiently for several weeks after my guy there told me they were dropping Boston for Polk, and got my first chance to really check 'em out last night.

I'm planning on going with RTi8's mains, CSi3 center and RTi4 for surrounds, and eventually moving up to RTi12 mains, with the CSi5 center and FX series surrounds. So naturally I was a little disconcerted by the sound I was hearing from the RTi12's. Good to hear that there is almost certainly something else going on that's affecting things.

Dr. Spec

RTi8 x 2
CSi5 x 1
FXi5 x 2
RTi4 x 2

All set to small at 80 Hz. Buy an awesome powered sub and have a killer system capable of being powered off any quality AVR like the 3805.

Deep six the RTi12 idea unless you have tons of amp and will be running them on full range. An awesome sub will beat the 12's down low anyway, so why bother going to the extra trouble?

Tsayid

Dr. Spec:

Would the RTi10's be properly powered off the 3805, or would I run into a similar problem with them being underpowered to perform well?

Sami

After I auditioned the RTi12, RTi10 & RTi8, my choice would have been RTi8. They did sound the best to me. Lacking the bass from RTi12 but like Dr. Spec said, get a subwoofer for the bass.

I decided the sound from the RTi8's wasn't better enough to get them over RTi70's when I could get them for $130 a piece from CC's clearance. Otherwise they would have been my choice (and they did sound better to me than the RTi70's).

3 * RTi70 + 2 * Yamaha surrounds + SVS 16-46PCi sub

Sound is great, now I just need to find matching surrounds and move those Yammies to rear when I have the space for it. Too bad I missed on getting another pair of RTi70's for surround. Any recommendations?

Dr. Spec

Would the RTi10's be properly powered off the 3805, or would I run into a similar problem with them being underpowered to perform well?

The problem I see with the RTi10 is that it only has one midrange driver, as compared to two mids for the RTi8.

If the 8 and the 10 were both set to small, the 8 wins in the SQ contest.

Think of the RTi8 as an RTi12 with no woofers. An easy load for an AVR when set to small, with all the SQ of its bigger brother in the mids and highs.

Passive woofers and AVRs are a BAD combination, trust me. AVRs run out of gas REALLY fast when asked to power four or six 7" woofers.

Buy the best/most midrange you can afford in every channel, and then buy the best powered bass you can afford.

PolkWannabie

Great idea BUT ... not everyone wants an additional monstrously large box in every room in their house. Sometimes in some places it's nice to have just a capable pair of towers. In this regard the 12's fill the bill quite well. As well as having a very competant sub ? no of course not, but that's also hardly mandatory everywhere one wants to listen to music or other media.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
Great idea BUT ... not everyone wants an additional monstrously large box in every room in their house. Sometimes in some places it's nice to have just a capable pair of towers. In this regard the 12's fill the bill quite well. As well as having a very competant sub ? no of course not, but that's also hardly mandatory everywhere one wants to listen to music or other media.

That's me...I have the 150s in my living area with no sub and am quite pleased...two things:

1 - For whatever reason, I don't like a separate sub for music, just doesn't do it for me...
2 - My 150s won't rouch the bass response of an SVS, but they have more than enough bass for me.

Powered subs are way cool, but they're not for everyone...

PolkWannabie

The specs on the 150's say they venture lower before roll off than the 12's ... but I know from doing my own sweeps that the 12's venture a good deal lower before roll off than the specs claim. Again ... as low as a top flight sub ? of course not, but with some balls behind them the 12's or 150's can deliver a lot of the goods in the low end i.e. more than enough to rattle stuff in the room. At the time I looked and listened to both the 12's and 150's and went with the 12's because of what they delivered farther up in the frequency range but there's not much shortage in either down low.

Dr. Spec

Never said the 12's couldn't perform with the right amp. Tsayid is planning on the 3805, and it's a bad match-up with the 12's, that's all.

If he goes external power, maybe 300 watts per, he can run all the other speaks on small, the 12's on large, and the sub to off/no and probably do just fine.

But...how much would the 12's and 600 watts worth of high current amps cost compared to the 8's and a great sub? I haven't priced it out, but I do realize there are two ways to skin this cat.

With room gain, I'm not surprised your 12's do better than rated in deep extension.

cfrizz

Originally posted by Emlyn
Interesting that the RT series is in Tweeter. I thought it was just going to be the LSi series.

It's both. I called the Tweeter near me and asked him if the Polks were in yet. He said they just came in this morning & should be out on the floor in a couple of days. I asked which line & he said the LSi's & the RT series.

Needless to say I will be checking out Tweets in a couple of days!:cool:

hamzahsh

I've never really believed in combos. Just think about this:-

A/V receiver same as RTi12's
Separates same as RTi8 and Sub.

Everybody knows that separates are better than A/VRs. Combos are always convenience but weak in certain areas compare to individual components. For sure the separates are very expensive and not every person is willing to pay the big dollars. So the only way to get the best sound for the least money is to get the A/VR. There are some receivers in the market which can beat the sound quality of some pricey processors but on the other hand some inexpensive AMPs beat the expensive receiver's AMP section.

Both have pros and cons and both are great choices as long you as your ears are satisfied and you're ready to spend big bucks.

I use Yamaha RX-V1400 and I'm running all my Polks at small setting and crossed them at 80hz and use my Velodyne CHT-15 as a dedicated LFE/Bass channel. I love my receiver even though its a combo but I'm treating it as a high freq AMP and my sub as low freq AMP. Probably in future I'll get a good inexpensive AMP like Outlaw 7100 and use my receiver as a PRE/PRO or stick with my sweet RX-V1400 as long as I'm satisfied with its AMP section.

Everybody has there own personal preferences and I'm agree with people who recommend RTi12's or a dedicated sub. I prefer dedicated sub and many reasons behind it because powered sub has its own AMP, in my case my Velo 15 has 300 RMS continuous power
that push the air. Now if you want to do the same with RTi12's think about getting a 2-channel AMP which has true continous power.

RTi12's are limit to 30hz where lot of subs can go below 20hz. For music RTi12 will great but for movies like LOTR Trilogy and many other Bass shakers will require a dedicated sub.

Both are best! when setup properly!

My 2000 cents!

gregure

Originally posted by Tsayid
Dr. Spec:

Would the RTi10's be properly powered off the 3805, or would I run into a similar problem with them being underpowered to perform well?

Personally, I have a pair of RTi10's and I couldn't be happier with them. I don't really understand the hoopla over the 10's lacking in midrange. I don't find that to be the case at all. True, the 10's will not reach as deep as the 12's in the bass range, but they are certainly more than capable of handling a decent amount of bass. I think they work very well for two-channel music, with or without a sub, however I still prefer a sub for my HT usage.

Just the other day I was listening to several types of music, really straining my ear for any lack of midrange on the 10's, and the music sounded great. Rock was wonderful (specifically "Bittersweet Symphony" by The Verve, "Baba O'Reilly" by The Who, and "Hallelujah" by Jeff Buckley). Guitars sound like they are right in the room, and vocals are clear and pronounced. Classical/Orchestral sounded great, with piano concertos sounding particularly well balanced. Also listened to the score for Gladiator, which has tremendously rich bass throughout, and the 10's handled the bass very well, shaking the room, while violins were amazingly clear, and horns rang out heroically. Of course the bass has a greater impact with a sub, but at high volume, the 10's are just about right, whereas the sub makes the bass for this score almost overwhelming. I'm not the most experienced audiophile, in fact I'm a bit of a beginner, but if I was losing any midrange with the 10's, I didn't notice, and I was listening very discernably. For HT usage, the 10's are perfect. The sub handles the low bass, while the 10's provide tangible and clear sound f/x, while complimenting the sub with just that bit more bass. They are a good compromise between the 8's, which are not so good w/o a sub for stereo use, and the 12's, which need so much extra juice. I run my system with an Onkyo TX-SR701, with 80 Hz crossover and mains set to Large. Hope that is helpful.

Tsayid

This has so far been an incredibly informative thread, thanks all for your input!

I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet but I'm leaning towards the RTi8's with the Denon 3805, and eventually a sub to round that out. Right now I live in an apartment so it wouldn't be very considerate of my neighbors to go and get a good sub

*edit* A big factor in this decision is definitely going to be what I hear from the 10's when they get them set up at Tweeter. Looking forward to that

mantis

yes,
we carry most of Polks line including the LSI series.

Our Princeton store in New Jersey(Lawerenceville)just got in the rti4,6,8, and 12's.

I just so happened to demo them today.

The rti12's just like the rt150's have a lack of bass.Power was not the Issue as I powered them with a B&K reference 200.2 which has 200 watts and 75 amps of kick **** power.

The Lsi series is rolling in on the 15th of this month(May).I can't wait to demo them against the Sonus Faber Grand Piano's.I did however demo the Rti12's vs the Sonus and they where just out classed.

I like the cherry finished as all of our floors are.

Dan

fireshoes

Doing shootouts fresh out of the box, Dan? Say it ain't so! Give them some break in love, my man. The treble will smooth out considerably. And I'd be willing to bet it would help out the bass issue.

bigsexy1

Originally posted by mantis
The rti12's just like the rt150's have a lack of bass.Power was not the Issue as I powered them with a B&K reference 200.2 which has 200 watts and 75 amps of kick **** power.

Dan

Obviously Tweeter doesn't screen their employess with drug tests, cause it sounds to me like someone has been hittin' the crack pipe again.

No offense Dan, but sometimes I wonder exactly where you're coming from.

Pray tell what speaker have you heard that you would consider not to do be lacking in bass?

mantis

bigsexy1,

Obviously Tweeter doesn't screen their employess with drug tests, cause it sounds to me like someone has been hittin' the crack pipe again.

Do you find it nessary to come off like that?Do I personally offend you ?I assume you own these speakers correct?Or was it the rti150's???I remember you talking about it in the past.
Lighten up man.My opnion stands and I have a right to it.I don't care for anything rt series anymore.Been there done that and I don't look back.If your into the way they sound thats great.I'm not here to police anyone buying or liking.I voice my opnion.

fireshoes,
I was excited dude....we haven't carried Polk since 1996.I'm so happy we carry there lines again.I pushed for it for years and they finally did it.Very cool.
After a few weeks of them playing on the floor,I will demo again.I'm hoping for the edgeness and lack of bass to filter out.As many drivers as they have,lack of bass makes no sense.Like I said above,I have more then enough power to drive the hell out of them.

Time will tell.The rest of the line should be in soon,Lsi is the 15th and they will get there time in as well.

Stay tuned.....
Bigsexy....:p

bigsexy1

Dan, you are right. I went too far, and I apologize for what I said about the crack pipe.

No, you don't offend me, but for anyone to say that either the 150s or the 12s lack in bass is an almost foolish statement that is at the very least amusing.

As I asked before, what speakers pray tell have you ever heard that do not lack in bass? Don't sit there and tell me the LSi15s with their one single 8 inch woofer driver as opposed to the 12's three 7 inch drivers.If you think the 12s/150s lack bass, then in your view the 15s must seem like a little bookshelf speaker.

ATC, I have not had any 150s in a long time. I traded 1 pair of them for 2 pairs of the world's greatest speaker of all time, the 70s (which have themselves long since been traded for 2 pairs of 8s), and I sold the other pair at a very tidy little profit from what I payed for them

gregure

Personally, I think the idea that the RTi 12's are lacking in bass is preposterous. No offense to those with other "opinions," but I have a pair of RTi 10's that handle a great deal of bass, and that is just with a 100 WPC receiver. I wanted to buy 12's, but I didn't have quite the resolve to spend the extra money, or have to potentially invest in bi-amping. However, when I experienced the 12's at Circuit City, they were amazing, filling the room with wonderful, bass-heavy sound. And I made sure that it was coming from the 12's, not the sub. Not to mention the fact that many people here on the forum swear by them, such as the gentleman who posted a claim that he had measured their bass output at lower than the stated 30Hz limit. Can't imagine anyone being dissatisfied with that. I agree that they may be difficult to power efficiently, but lacking in bass? Never. And really, man, lighten up about the crack pipe thing. Have a sense of humor.

PolkWannabie

That gentle ? man would have been me and that claim can be viewed in graphical form in another thread.

Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion, but personally I don't think the one regarding the 12's lacking in the low end is valid, not from listening nor measuring.

If one wanted to suggest that the LSi15's where better in the top end because of the tweeter, I'd agree, but that's it. I don't find their midrange to be as good as the 12's or 8's let alone their low end be as far reaching or powerful as the 12's.

Regardless ... in my own situation the 12's have been moved to a tertiary listening area because they are no competition and neither is any LSi.