Spiked my speakers... and didn’t like

verb

DSkip wrote: »

While that’s true Dave the issue is that if that energy doesn’t have a place to go it will be a detriment to other stereophonic qualities. If you properly remove it the cabinet isn’t an issue anymore.

Yep. Every design is a compromise, or balance between requirements.

This thread got me thinking about testing. I wonder what a typical speaker test fixture looks like? In terms of how it's mounted. Just sits on the floor, or flat surface? Spikes or not? Bolted to the fixture? Hmmm, gotta check that out!

verb

joecoulson wrote: »

Just a question from me to ask the honorable gurus here:
Why when I asked Ed from SVS about spiking (and then followed up with Dan Marks at Axpona) they both said coupling the sub to the floor produced resonances and unnatural sound?

They sell (and gave me ) the Soundpath isolation feet. I have not posted yet as I feel it would just take away from this thread but they have made a solid positive change in the sound produced from my sub. Now full disclosure I have the worst floor for audiophile reproduction (crawl space on sunken floor) but it was huge. I am now testing the Elacs with the discs under them to see if (I doubt it but why not try?) decoupling them has any effect - positive or negative.

Interesting Joe. That supports the theory that at least for those particular speakers, they want to be free to vibrate, uncoupled. Gotta get me some popcorn!

kharp1

I use the SVS Isolation feet and add 50lbs of weight on top of the cabinet. I find the base is tighter and more focused this way. Living on a crawl space I wouldn't want that level of bass frequency rumbling through all that space.

I use spikes on my speaker stands as well as small spikes on the stand platform that supports the monitor. I don't want the speaker sitting flat on anything where the cabinet vibrations on a flat surface can muddle the frequencies I'm trying to get rid of. I also put small 10lb weights on top of the speaker cabinets on top of the spikes, on top of the stands that are on spikes. The sound is the best I've ever had in my house, with a great stage, and has come from many hours of trying just about every combination I could come up with.

joecoulson

DSkip wrote: »

In your case I don’t think the sub would have ever been truly coupled. You said it bounced around and if that’s so spikes would have done no good as you never would have had a solid pathway.

Energy wants to be grounded. If you have a pathway for it to travel to ground it will do it and your system will sound better because of it.

This is true and probably has a lot to do with the floor. I would imagine on a slab or a well built sub floor it would perform better with the spikes. I just find it interesting the company does not recommend them. SVS that is.

joecoulson

As with anything, there are average best practices that work in most scenarios but not all.

I’m listening to Sohn (that’s the one we heard at the Scaena room @Clipdat and @verb ) on vinyl and the bass is so fluid and beautiful right now. I have the discs under the spikes and will try without here shortly.

verb

@kharp1 you really pointed out what ultimately needs to be done. No manufacturer can anticipate every environment their products will be used in. They have to pick a design point, and go from there.

Enthusiasts like yourselves and others take it to the next level. By experimenting. And folks like me rely on you and others sharing your learnings, for us newbies to make an informed decision.

joecoulson

Exciting like sex and steaks or Exciting like Giordano’s pizza?

VR3

Joe you should bolt your sub to the sub floor.

That would truly couple it.

Honestly I find that too be some of the magic of the infinite baffle... The energy is not wasted on a cabinet moving around, it's quite literally anchored to the house.

joecoulson

There is also the fact that when the sub was spiked, pictures and items flew of the walls. I just think for my setup (and WAF) the isolation works.

Trey you and Tom and Jody need to come down soon. Ready to have another. There is a hotel 5 mins from the house and I would have the family stay at the In laws. That way we can listen to the wee hours but keep my wife comfy with the accommodation setup.

VR3

Middle of the month on a weekend, sounds fun!

verb

DSkip wrote: »

verb wrote: »

@kharp1 you really pointed out what ultimately needs to be done. No manufacturer can anticipate every environment their products will be used in. They have to pick a design point, and go from there.

Enthusiasts like yourselves and others take it to the next level. By experimenting. And folks like me rely on you and others sharing your learnings, for us newbies to make an informed decision.

Ugh. I wish I could elaborate more but I can’t right now. Not to prove you wrong in any way because there is truth in what you say, but because I know some things that are going to be extremely exciting when they come about.

No worries. I’m here to learn. I do appreciate everyone’s input. I just have to look back not that long ago and wow! I’ve upped my game! Couldn’t have done it without CP!

Hermitism

F1nut

Why when I asked Ed from SVS about spiking (and then followed up with Dan Marks at Axpona) they both said coupling the sub to the floor produced resonances and unnatural sound?

The SVS SB4000 in my HT rig definitely sounds tighter spiked than on those little rubber coated feet it came with.

Speaking of subs, Ed told me that there is no difference in performance when using high level verses line level connections to a sub used for music. Of course, he's wrong.

DarqueKnight

Based on my technical discussions with the guys at SVS, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are not audiophiles, they just like good sound.

I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile. I have pursued good stereo sound since my teenage years. My pursuit of high performance, audiophile-quality stereo sound began more recently, circa 2006.

joecoulson

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Based on my technical discussions with the guys at SVS, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are not audiophiles, they just like good sound.

I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile. I have pursued good stereo sound since my teenage years. My pursuit of high performance, audiophile-quality stereo sound began more recently, circa 2006.

I'm going to thank you and back into that role (of hobbyist) and say I am not expert and I must not have the trained ears like most here as I have found (in my rig) the following to be "better":
the sub not spiked and not the mains not spiked into the crawl space floor. Just up on the discs into the carpet (decoupled if you will)
just sounds better to me. I guess I need another get together so guys can straighten out my listening practices.

DarqueKnight

My SVS PB12 Ultra/2 sits in a television alcove that has a slightly flexy plywood floor. In this location, it sounds better, with tighter and faster bass, sitting on its natural feet rather than spikes.

The LSiM 707s in my home theater are spiked on a ceramic tile floor. The SDS SRS 1.2TLs in my two channel stereo system sit on their natural feet on a hardwood floor laid over cement slab, but are braced to the rear wall. Natural feet and wall brace sounded better than spikes alone.

verb

Well you’re all experts when compared to my pedigree. Living and learning!

codycatalist

I am always suspicious when someone makes a claim that strengthens the need to buy their product. I always do my own research but like many have said before what works for you might not be for another and vice versa. One of the only things I have picked up listening habit wise here is no tone controls, I think that leans more towards getting better gear instead of "Good habits". Some integrated amps I have had needed a boost here or there. Now I just let it ride and if I find any issues it is probably my room or the source material.

joecoulson

Love the finish on that sub @DarqueKnight

SCompRacer

I chose the squished spike footers.



Jasper approved...



I tired them on some DIY stands with four corner mounted flat footers but preferred the squished spikes.

pitdogg2

One cool Cat

VR3

Those are cool spikes (and cat)

WLDock

Whats interesting in the audio production / recording world, you see speaker decoupling / isolation more so than and coupling used.



I found that spikes made a noticeable difference in the sound of my speakers. However, the speakers were re-positioned at the same time so I really don't know to what degree the spikes helped. Maybe one day I'll experiment in the current location with no spikes?

Nevertheless, this sites explains the theory behind spike coupling. http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cones/speak.html

In some recent issues of the audio magazine, ‘Hi Fi News’ [ref 1], Keith Howard used an accelerometer to measure the levels of vibration in various objects. When he tried measuring the vibrations produced in a loudspeaker stand by playing the speaker he found a result that surprised him. With the speaker unit sitting on cones the level of vibration of the stand was over one hundred times greater than if the cones were replaced with small rubbery feet. This indicates that cones are of doubtful use if the intention is to stop vibrations passing from the speaker to the stand, or to any other solid objects against which the speaker may sit.

Another interesting concept are the Gingko Audio ARCH products I saw in the Salk Sound room at the 2017 AXPONA.
http://www.ginkgoaudio.com/2017/03/19/archdebut/
https://audiobacon.net/2017/05/10/gingko-audio-arc-vibration-control-platforms-review/
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/gingko/1.html





https://youtu.be/esLPBhF8mTo
https://youtu.be/W-2ht-D69Rk

Gingko Audio Clarissa LE

motorstereo

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile.

Indeed you have sir. I was thumbing through my vintage tas mags just last week and I found a well written letter to the editor that you had written in the spring of 1988. At that time (31 years ago) I had almost zero interest in this hobby as I had just bought an old house which kept me poor and busy for the next several years.

jdjohn

Spikes are tuning devices, just like cables and room treatments. Cody did not like the tuning that the spikes provided, just as some cables are not a good match. IMO, too much tuning can sterilize the sound and make it anemic. Is it not possible to have bass that is TOO tight...to the point of being unrealistic and not as impactful as intended?

We will likely never be rid of the word 'coupling' when it comes to speaker spikes. True mechanical coupling involves nuts, bolts, flanges, threaded sleeves, gears/splines...not spikes. The threads in spikes couple them to a speaker cabinet, but the spikes are not coupled to the floor...they just sit on top via gravity. Tilt the speaker back, and the front spikes come off the floor...that is not true coupling. HOWEVER, there is probably no better way to describe it, so we are likely stuck with the term.

verb

motorstereo wrote: »

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile.

Indeed you have sir. I was thumbing through my vintage tas mags just last week and I found a well written letter to the editor that you had written in the spring of 1988. At that time (31 years ago) I had almost zero interest in this hobby as I had just bought an old house which kept me poor and busy for the next several years.

Dude you gotta post it! Wow!

joecoulson

Like Jasper, Toby likes the sweet spot too

kharp1

WLDock wrote: »

Nevertheless, this sites explains the theory behind spike coupling. http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cones/speak.html

In some recent issues of the audio magazine, ‘Hi Fi News’ [ref 1], Keith Howard used an accelerometer to measure the levels of vibration in various objects. When he tried measuring the vibrations produced in a loudspeaker stand by playing the speaker he found a result that surprised him. With the speaker unit sitting on cones the level of vibration of the stand was over one hundred times greater than if the cones were replaced with small rubbery feet. This indicates that cones are of doubtful use if the intention is to stop vibrations passing from the speaker to the stand, or to any other solid objects against which the speaker may sit.

The concept that I lean towards is I want that vibration leaving the speakers, where it can cause various issues if reintroduced to the cabinet, and to travel down the stands where it is directed through the spikes, in to the floor to dissipate properly. I want that energy to dissipate with as little added coloration as possible.

motorstereo

Coupled or decoupled (I'll go with coupled) spiking my sub allows me to use my tt without rumble. Before spiking I used to turn the sub off when using the tt.

SCompRacer

joecoulson wrote: »

Like Jasper, Toby likes the sweet spot too

That's so kewl! Jasper helps me pick out vinyl to play too!