Spiked my speakers... and didn’t like

24

Comments

  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,215
    I’d like to reiterate that I’m not looking for a fight. Knowledge is the end goal here. This is a topic that I have been getting schooled in since meeting Robert at Star Sound Technologies last year. It has blown my mind how much this man knows and understands about this topic - every time we talk I learn something new. When clients have specific questions I ask to be CCed in emails so I can learn as much as possible.

    Even Matthew Polk himself uses a Star Sound Technology rack with his system.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,958
    Spikes couple, period....end of discussion.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,704
    Jstas wrote: »
    ... The goal of spikes under your speakers is to decouple them from the next surface. The goal of spikes under your stands is to couple them to the floor by anchoring into it.


    John may I ask how the spikes can decouple a speaker BUT couple a speaker stand?
    For the record I know you for sure are 10 magnitudes smarter than I but this in itself contradicts itself in my eyes.

  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    Interesting article. One take away for me is the theorem that speaker manufacturers tune their speakers knowing the cabinet will vibrate. I tend to agree. If they take that into account, so, in theory, spiking the speakers to the floor (coupling) will alter the performance.

    However, in my experience, yes I'm an engineer, unless you have an active (expensive) tuning device, you have to target a narrow frequency range to tune. Typically that frequency is in a region most often used by a customer. Not usually the extreme low or high frequencies.

    In my biz, we'll target a steady state condition. Highway conditions, constant velocity.

    So continuing with the theory, depending on how good the design is, or tuned, if at all, spikes may or may not improve the sound. But the sound will change.

    Experience from members here say spiking to the floor (coupling) generally improves the sound, most notably in the lower frequencies.

    Just my thoughts. Let the respectable conversation continue! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
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  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,215
    edited May 1
    While that’s true Dave the issue is that if that energy doesn’t have a place to go it will be a detriment to other stereophonic qualities. If you properly remove it the cabinet isn’t an issue anymore.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    Just a question from me to ask the honorable gurus here:
    Why when I asked Ed from SVS about spiking (and then followed up with Dan Marks at Axpona) they both said coupling the sub to the floor produced resonances and unnatural sound?

    They sell (and gave me ) the Soundpath isolation feet. I have not posted yet as I feel it would just take away from this thread but they have made a solid positive change in the sound produced from my sub. Now full disclosure I have the worst floor for audiophile reproduction (crawl space on sunken floor) but it was huge. I am now testing the Elacs with the discs under them to see if (I doubt it but why not try?) decoupling them has any effect - positive or negative.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    edited May 1
    DSkip wrote: »
    While that’s true Dave the issue is that if that energy doesn’t have a place to go it will be a detriment to other stereophonic qualities. If you properly remove it the cabinet isn’t an issue anymore.

    Yep. Every design is a compromise, or balance between requirements.

    This thread got me thinking about testing. I wonder what a typical speaker test fixture looks like? In terms of how it's mounted. Just sits on the floor, or flat surface? Spikes or not? Bolted to the fixture? Hmmm, gotta check that out!
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,215
    In your case I don’t think the sub would have ever been truly coupled. You said it bounced around and if that’s so spikes would have done no good as you never would have had a solid pathway.

    Energy wants to be grounded. If you have a pathway for it to travel to ground it will do it and your system will sound better because of it.
  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    edited May 1
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Just a question from me to ask the honorable gurus here:
    Why when I asked Ed from SVS about spiking (and then followed up with Dan Marks at Axpona) they both said coupling the sub to the floor produced resonances and unnatural sound?

    They sell (and gave me ) the Soundpath isolation feet. I have not posted yet as I feel it would just take away from this thread but they have made a solid positive change in the sound produced from my sub. Now full disclosure I have the worst floor for audiophile reproduction (crawl space on sunken floor) but it was huge. I am now testing the Elacs with the discs under them to see if (I doubt it but why not try?) decoupling them has any effect - positive or negative.

    Interesting Joe. That supports the theory that at least for those particular speakers, they want to be free to vibrate, uncoupled. Gotta get me some popcorn! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,392
    I use the SVS Isolation feet and add 50lbs of weight on top of the cabinet. I find the base is tighter and more focused this way. Living on a crawl space I wouldn't want that level of bass frequency rumbling through all that space.

    I use spikes on my speaker stands as well as small spikes on the stand platform that supports the monitor. I don't want the speaker sitting flat on anything where the cabinet vibrations on a flat surface can muddle the frequencies I'm trying to get rid of. I also put small 10lb weights on top of the speaker cabinets on top of the spikes, on top of the stands that are on spikes. The sound is the best I've ever had in my house, with a great stage, and has come from many hours of trying just about every combination I could come up with.
    Main System:
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  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    DSkip wrote: »
    In your case I don’t think the sub would have ever been truly coupled. You said it bounced around and if that’s so spikes would have done no good as you never would have had a solid pathway.

    Energy wants to be grounded. If you have a pathway for it to travel to ground it will do it and your system will sound better because of it.

    This is true and probably has a lot to do with the floor. I would imagine on a slab or a well built sub floor it would perform better with the spikes. I just find it interesting the company does not recommend them. SVS that is.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    As with anything, there are average best practices that work in most scenarios but not all.

    I’m listening to Sohn (that’s the one we heard at the Scaena room @Clipdat and @verb ) on vinyl and the bass is so fluid and beautiful right now. I have the discs under the spikes and will try without here shortly.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    @kharp1 you really pointed out what ultimately needs to be done. No manufacturer can anticipate every environment their products will be used in. They have to pick a design point, and go from there.

    Enthusiasts like yourselves and others take it to the next level. By experimenting. And folks like me rely on you and others sharing your learnings, for us newbies to make an informed decision.
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,215
    verb wrote: »
    @kharp1 you really pointed out what ultimately needs to be done. No manufacturer can anticipate every environment their products will be used in. They have to pick a design point, and go from there.

    Enthusiasts like yourselves and others take it to the next level. By experimenting. And folks like me rely on you and others sharing your learnings, for us newbies to make an informed decision.

    Ugh. I wish I could elaborate more but I can’t right now. Not to prove you wrong in any way because there is truth in what you say, but because I know some things that are going to be extremely exciting when they come about.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    Exciting like sex and steaks or Exciting like Giordano’s pizza?
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,482
    edited May 1
    Joe you should bolt your sub to the sub floor.

    That would truly couple it.

    Honestly I find that too be some of the magic of the infinite baffle... The energy is not wasted on a cabinet moving around, it's quite literally anchored to the house.
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    There is also the fact that when the sub was spiked, pictures and items flew of the walls. I just think for my setup (and WAF) the isolation works.

    Trey you and Tom and Jody need to come down soon. Ready to have another. There is a hotel 5 mins from the house and I would have the family stay at the In laws. That way we can listen to the wee hours but keep my wife comfy with the accommodation setup.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,482
    Middle of the month on a weekend, sounds fun!
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    DSkip wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    @kharp1 you really pointed out what ultimately needs to be done. No manufacturer can anticipate every environment their products will be used in. They have to pick a design point, and go from there.

    Enthusiasts like yourselves and others take it to the next level. By experimenting. And folks like me rely on you and others sharing your learnings, for us newbies to make an informed decision.

    Ugh. I wish I could elaborate more but I can’t right now. Not to prove you wrong in any way because there is truth in what you say, but because I know some things that are going to be extremely exciting when they come about.

    No worries. I’m here to learn. I do appreciate everyone’s input. I just have to look back not that long ago and wow! I’ve upped my game! Couldn’t have done it without CP! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 16,215
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Exciting like sex and steaks or Exciting like Giordano’s pizza?

    Pizza. I’ve never paid for sex but I will pay for what’s coming up. They will be game changers but I fear many won’t take the time to understand it.
  • HermitismHermitism Posts: 2,583
    4ceagf8squqw.jpg
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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,958
    Why when I asked Ed from SVS about spiking (and then followed up with Dan Marks at Axpona) they both said coupling the sub to the floor produced resonances and unnatural sound?

    The SVS SB4000 in my HT rig definitely sounds tighter spiked than on those little rubber coated feet it came with.

    Speaking of subs, Ed told me that there is no difference in performance when using high level verses line level connections to a sub used for music. Of course, he's wrong.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,602
    Based on my technical discussions with the guys at SVS, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are not audiophiles, they just like good sound.

    I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile. I have pursued good stereo sound since my teenage years. My pursuit of high performance, audiophile-quality stereo sound began more recently, circa 2006.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    Based on my technical discussions with the guys at SVS, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are not audiophiles, they just like good sound.

    I was in this hobby for a long time before becoming an audiophile. I have pursued good stereo sound since my teenage years. My pursuit of high performance, audiophile-quality stereo sound began more recently, circa 2006.

    I'm going to thank you and back into that role (of hobbyist) and say I am not expert and I must not have the trained ears like most here as I have found (in my rig) the following to be "better":
    the sub not spiked and not the mains not spiked into the crawl space floor. Just up on the discs into the carpet (decoupled if you will)
    just sounds better to me. I guess I need another get together so guys can straighten out my listening practices.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,602
    edited May 2
    My SVS PB12 Ultra/2 sits in a television alcove that has a slightly flexy plywood floor. In this location, it sounds better, with tighter and faster bass, sitting on its natural feet rather than spikes.

    The LSiM 707s in my home theater are spiked on a ceramic tile floor. The SDS SRS 1.2TLs in my two channel stereo system sit on their natural feet on a hardwood floor laid over cement slab, but are braced to the rear wall. Natural feet and wall brace sounded better than spikes alone.

    xgxcdzcb037a.jpg

    zj2rcgb15u97.jpg

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • verbverb Posts: 8,007
    Well you’re all experts when compared to my pedigree. Living and learning! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • codycatalistcodycatalist Posts: 2,557
    I am always suspicious when someone makes a claim that strengthens the need to buy their product. I always do my own research but like many have said before what works for you might not be for another and vice versa. One of the only things I have picked up listening habit wise here is no tone controls, I think that leans more towards getting better gear instead of "Good habits". Some integrated amps I have had needed a boost here or there. Now I just let it ride and if I find any issues it is probably my room or the source material.
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

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  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,588
    Love the finish on that sub @DarqueKnight
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,190
    edited May 2
    I chose the squished spike footers.

    emf2ycw61vod.jpg

    Jasper approved...

    fu1f6t14e6h3.png

    I tired them on some DIY stands with four corner mounted flat footers but preferred the squished spikes.

    j6jxtel39hzv.png
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,704
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