Sub or not

rburgess714rburgess714 Posts: 385
edited February 13 in 2 Channel Audio
I have been running hybrid ht/2-channel rig in 3.0 no sub. My Sig 60s have plenty of low end and I am not a bass head. Other than more boom on movies in ht what am I missing when listening to music in 2-channel? I have considered a SVS SB2000 but want to know if it’s worth it?
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Comments

  • msg wrote: »
    A nice, musical sub can take over the low-low duties, and may result in cleaner delivery with what you leave for your speakers to handle.

    If you have a wide open space that's difficult to fully pressurize, a sub can help tremendously with that, and provide the sense of a fuller sound across the lower frequencies.

    Hey Scott - The room is pretty open but sub placement would be limited to a corner and I am concerned that the low end would become isolated.

    So a musical sub would offer cleaner mid bass?
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  • msg wrote: »
    A nice, musical sub can take over the low-low duties, and may result in cleaner delivery with what you leave for your speakers to handle.

    If you have a wide open space that's difficult to fully pressurize, a sub can help tremendously with that, and provide the sense of a fuller sound across the lower frequencies.

    Hey Scott - The room is pretty open but sub placement would be limited to a corner and I am concerned that the low end would become isolated.

    So a musical sub would offer cleaner mid bass?

    I meant cleaner mids from the 60s?

    Btw- how’s the new integrated?
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  • msgmsg Posts: 4,875
    edited February 13
    hehe, so this is about as far as I get - subs make bass :)
    I don't have enough experience yet with what's what in the ranges. I suppose I should pay more attention to that...

    The neat thing about subs is that when they're properly placed, they can be difficult to source-locate. IF you're not really listening too hard for it.

    But yes, sometimes when speakers are really busy, you can get congestion, and the music details sort of get lost in it. You've most likely experienced this. I can come across as kind of distortion. You can lose the layering, and everything can sound very flat.

    If you can pull the heavier lows out to a sub, the result can be that the mains drivers are better controlled. This can result in an improvement in clarity and separation of the musical components, because everything won't be running together trying to play at once out of the speakers, none of it working particularly well.

    I suppose a good starting question would be, do you feel things muddied up any on particularly busy, fast music? Or in anything with some low end sustain?

    If your speakers are too busy, and you get that addressed, it can open the way for some refinements in the music, like hearing details you haven't heard before, imaging - that sense of instrument and player location - and other stuff I don't know a whole lot about. I've only rarely experienced imaging refinements past a strong center image in full size systems because my rooms are all weird, but I've been playing around with near field stuff a little, which is easier to get those results with. Purely by accident, I might add. It's really something when you experience it. I can't even describe how cool an experience it is. It's just something "neat" that never seems to get old.

    The new integrated was great in the test space, but I'm fighting a few things in the main space, which is wide open and seems to have a bass suckout. Been crazy at work lately, so I haven't had much time to work on that. I may either need to run a sub with the A5 - here's a similar example - or move it to a different space without the room issues.
    I disabled signatures.
  • msg wrote: »
    hehe, so this is about as far as I get - subs make bass :)
    I don't have enough experience yet with what's what in the ranges. I suppose I should pay more attention to that...

    The neat thing about subs is that when they're properly placed, they can be difficult to source-locate. IF you're not really listening too hard for it.

    But yes, sometimes when speakers are really busy, you can get congestion, and the music details sort of get lost in it. You've most likely experienced this. I can come across as kind of distortion. You can lose the layering, and everything can sound very flat.

    If you can pull the heavier lows out to a sub, the result can be that the mains drivers are better controlled. This can result in an improvement in clarity and separation of the musical components, because everything won't be running together trying to play at once out of the speakers, none of it working particularly well.

    I suppose a good starting question would be, do you feel things muddied up any on particularly busy, fast music? Or in anything with some low end sustain?

    If your speakers are too busy, and you get that addressed, it can open the way for some refinements in the music, like hearing details you haven't heard before, imaging - that sense of instrument and player location - and other stuff I don't know a whole lot about. I've only rarely experienced imaging refinements past a strong center image in full size systems because my rooms are all weird, but I've been playing around with near field stuff a little, which is easier to get those results with. Purely by accident, I might add. It's really something when you experience it. I can't even describe how cool an experience it is. It's just something "neat" that never seems to get old.

    The new integrated was great in the test space, but I'm fighting a few things in the main space, which is wide open and seems to have a bass suckout. Been crazy at work lately, so I haven't had much time to work on that. I may either need to run a sub with the A5 - here's a similar example - or move it to a different space without the room issues.

    Yeah I think I need to experiment just something else to to play around with. Thinking Rel or SVS.

    Good luck getting the A5 dialed in, that a beast of an integrated.
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  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,108
    edited February 13
    Sub or not depends on what your space does to your speakers frequency response. You may own a speaker that measures 25Hz to 25KHz +- 3dB, but your room may actually measure -10-15dB in the 25-35Hz range.

    If you don't listen to anything that goes that low, you are not missing anything. Check a musical instrument frequency chart and see how low instruments play in music you like to listen to. A room sweep will tell you what you may be missing or frequencies that are boosted.

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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    edited February 13
    What MSG says basically......

    Smallish woofers never can do mids and truly deep bass well, at loud volumes and with low distortion.
    The sub takes the load off of smallish woofers and more efficiently produces lows.

    It is not just a matter or your mains speakers having or not having bass, but relieving the load on the amp and speakers at same time.

    Cleaner bass and mids.
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  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 6,420
    K_M wrote: »
    Smallish woofers never can do mids and bass well, at loud volumes and with low distortion.

    Clearly you've never heard PMC speakers.
    • "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • daddyjtdaddyjt Posts: 771
    All due respect to previous responses - to produce accurate bass, you have to move air, and the lower the frequency, the more air you have to move. Cone size and/or cone excursion are the ways to do this. I realize that enclosure size, enclosure type and amp power all play a role as well, but in all but the most complex designs, the size of the driver and it’s excursion potential will determine the depth of the bass you can expect to get. The driver compliment in most main speakers (especially bookshelves) simply are not capable of truly deep bass at significant output levels.

    Subs with servo circuits are in my opinion the preferred way to go, especially for music (2ch). I have difficulty envisioning a music type that would not benefit from a quality sub, correctly integrated into the system - maybe a’capela vocals...

    Anyway, once you’ve heard 2ch music through a system utilizing a well integrated sub, you’ll most likely be hooked:-)

    Happy shopping!
    Too much stuff to keep track of.

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  • Tramsparent_Tramsparent_ Posts: 14
    edited February 13
    The SVS SB-2000 is EXCELLENT and (by far), the best Sub I've auditioned. Many were boomy/thumpy and more of a gimmick than useful.
    The SB-2000 is a beautiful unit in piano-black.
    Mine is NOT in a corner but is just outside of my main stereo speaker array which is open (to the right side).
    It can't be pinpointed as far as location goes.
    The variable Phase and Volume controls make it very easy to fine tune.
    Is a Sub "needed" in my case? No, as the speakers I am using dive deep.
    Do I like it? Absolutely, and it is particularly valuable during lower volume listening sessions and for a bit more "kick" when watching movies.
    I think it is worth every cent.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    edited February 13
    Clipdat wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    Smallish woofers never can do mids and bass well, at loud volumes and with low distortion.

    Clearly you've never heard PMC speakers.

    Just simple physics.
    Small, loud and deep and low distortion never can happen.

    You can choose one factor, but not all.
    You need large cone size and large excursion to do all.
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  • msgmsg Posts: 4,875
    daddyjt wrote: »
    Subs with servo circuits are in my opinion the preferred way to go, especially for music (2ch). I have difficulty envisioning a music type that would not benefit from a quality sub, correctly integrated into the system - maybe a’capela vocals...

    Since I'm sorta considering this myself, what would be some example brands/models of servo circuit subs? When someone says their sub has a motor, is this a servo type sub they're talking about?
    I disabled signatures.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    msg wrote: »
    daddyjt wrote: »
    Subs with servo circuits are in my opinion the preferred way to go, especially for music (2ch). I have difficulty envisioning a music type that would not benefit from a quality sub, correctly integrated into the system - maybe a’capela vocals...

    Since I'm sorta considering this myself, what would be some example brands/models of servo circuit subs? When someone says their sub has a motor, is this a servo type sub they're talking about?

    We had an older velodyne that used a control circuit, worked great for many years, was impressive.
    Have no owned their newer ones though.
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  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 6,420
    K_M wrote: »
    Just simple physics.
    Small, loud and deep and low distortion never can happen.

    You can choose one factor, but not all.
    You need large cone size and large excursion to do all.

    Thank you for confirming that you've never heard PMC speakers.
    • "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,108
    edited February 13
    ALL212 wrote: »
    If you're going to do room sweeps I've found this to work quite well.
    lhkyd0l1c3ty.jpg

    Do not use synthetic or colored ones. They can taint the readings.


    Thanks, I can borrow the neighbors when she isn't using it. :)


    msg wrote: »

    Since I'm sorta considering this myself, what would be some example brands/models of servo circuit subs? When someone says their sub has a motor, is this a servo type sub they're talking about?

    Check out Rythmik.

    http://rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

    With all due respect, your space determines your speakers frequency response. Why add a sub if you don't need it? Do the work, do a room sweep to determine the rooms frequency response. Positioning can help fix issues along with acoustic treatments.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  • daddyjtdaddyjt Posts: 771
    edited February 13
    Velodyne and Rythmik are the front-runners in servo subs ATM....

    “Motor” can refer to the “motor assembly”, which is the voice coil, magnet, and spider. It “can” also mean servo, but not necessarily. Typically, if a model includes a servo circuit, they’ll usually make sure you know:-)
    Too much stuff to keep track of.

    Currently enjoying: Legacy Focus 20/20, McCormack DNA 225, Bill D C1, Oppo 105
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    edited February 13
    Clipdat wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    Just simple physics.
    Small, loud and deep and low distortion never can happen.

    You can choose one factor, but not all.
    You need large cone size and large excursion to do all.

    Thank you for confirming that you've never heard PMC speakers.


    Provide a link to the model you are referring to please.

    Are you saying these PMC speakers somehow defy physics?
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  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 6,420
    I presumed you hadn't ever heard PMC speakers, and then your non-answer confirmed it. That's it, we're done here.

    I think you should avoid making blanket "absolute" statements such as "Smallish woofers never can do mids and bass well, at loud volumes and with low distortion." or you will come across as someone who is talking about things that they don't know about.
    • "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • codycatalistcodycatalist Posts: 2,273
    I will also mention that you said a small driver cannot do mids well, the OP has S60s with a 6.5 inch driver (multiple obviously) so I don't want him to get the impression a 6.5 inch driver can't do mids or bass well....if it couldn't why would we all love these MW65XX model drivers?
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  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 5,337
    I have been running hybrid ht/2-channel rig in 3.0 no sub. My Sig 60s have plenty of low end and I am not a bass head. Other than more boom on movies in ht what am I missing when listening to music in 2-channel? I have considered a SVS SB2000 but want to know if it’s worth it?

    Try it and see! 45 day return policy, pretty sweet.
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    edited February 13
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I presumed you hadn't ever heard PMC speakers, and then your non-answer confirmed it. That's it, we're done here.

    I think you should avoid making blanket "absolute" statements such as "Smallish woofers never can do mids and bass well, at loud volumes and with low distortion." or you will come across as someone who is talking about things that they don't know about.


    Hoffman's Iron law of speaker building.
    Read it well, then come back and see if you understand.
    If you do not, I can explain it better to you.....as other's further up have tried.

    If you are just singling out my post, then move on.
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    I will also mention that you said a small driver cannot do mids well, the OP has S60s with a 6.5 inch driver (multiple obviously) so I don't want him to get the impression a 6.5 inch driver can't do mids or bass well....if it couldn't why would we all love these MW65XX model drivers?

    I said small woofers can not do mids well, AND deep bass, AND loud levels, AND with low distortion.

    Not quite the same.
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  • msgmsg Posts: 4,875
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Check out Rythmik.

    http://rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

    With all due respect, your space determines your speakers frequency response. Why add a sub if you don't need it? Do the work, do a room sweep to determine the rooms frequency response. Positioning can help fix issues along with acoustic treatments.

    Hey Rich, how might I go about doing a room sweep?
    I disabled signatures.
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 10,291
    edited February 13
    K_M wrote: »

    If you are just singling out my post, then move on.

    Kelly, please retain that message in your thoughts

    I’m sure you can use it yourself again some day
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »

    If you are just singling out my post, then move on.

    Kelly, please retain that message in your thoughts

    I’m sure you can use it yourself again some day


    Please Contribute to the thread, as I did.

    The pile on mentality, you guys seem unable to resist doing, is bringing the forum down. Is that truly your only intention?
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  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,309
    edited February 13
    msg wrote: »
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Check out Rythmik.

    http://rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

    With all due respect, your space determines your speakers frequency response. Why add a sub if you don't need it? Do the work, do a room sweep to determine the rooms frequency response. Positioning can help fix issues along with acoustic treatments.

    Hey Rich, how might I go about doing a room sweep?

    The only issue, is that moving seating position can greatly influence the bass you hear, due to standing waves cancellations and reinforcements.
    So what may measure good at one point, will be totally different in other areas.

    Room treatments can minmize the swings, but not eliminate them totally.
    In a normal sized room, it is always a compromise.
    If you do a room sweep from a digital source or test cd, you will hear the peaks and valleys associated with the reinforcements and cancellations AT that particular location in room.

    Also you will see how much deep bass is present or not present in the room/speaker interface.
    We used a tone generator on one comp, hooked up to some of our systems, and you can scroll through frequencies or have it sweep very slowly and observe the bass.
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  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,108
    edited February 13
    msg wrote: »

    Hey Rich, how might I go about doing a room sweep?

    For free software, look at REW. IIRC you had to belong to a forum to download. REW uses burst tones. Playing single frequency tones for long periods can give you inaccurate readings due to room loading.

    You'll need a microphone with a calibration file. If you have a Radio Shack meter, you can also use those. Check out this page, getting started with REW. It covers mic's.

    https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/gettingstarted.html

    I purchased Dayton Audio Omni Mic V2. Like $300. It is supplied with a calibrated mic. You can also use the Dayton software for testing DIY speakers.

    http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system.html

    Place the mic in seating position. Do the sweep and see the results. Remember, we are placing speakers in rooms not designed for audio.

    I have moved speakers and applied acoustic treatments to improve readings in the mid range. Keep notes of what you did and what happened. Sometimes you just have to put the software away and go back to it another day. Be prepared to compromise.

    Then I worked on sub placement. In my room, in the listening position, you get everything. Other positions in room, not as good. If I move forward I get nulling of the bass until it disappears, move a bit more and then it reappears. All I care about is the sweet spot.

    Best placement of subs for me was between speakers and tight against the wall. For my space which is over 10,000 cubic feet (an open main level), recommendations were for two 15" subs. I went with two 12's as they are smaller and were just enough to give me the boost I needed in the 25-35Hz range.

    Most likely you won't get your room response ruler flat but you can get it closer and more enjoyable.

    Victor (halo) has REW and was going to do some sweeps. Hopefully he will post results and folks can help one another out with the software.

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  • HermitismHermitism Posts: 2,385
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    msg wrote: »

    Hey Rich, how might I go about doing a room sweep?

    REW uses burst tones. Playing single frequency tones for long periods can give you inaccurate readings due to room loading.
    That's a cool tip that I did not know. Thanks! My HSU came with a test disc, but the different tones are constant.
    2.0/3.0 - Marantz: PM8005 w/HT Bypass, NA8005 | Polk: LSiM703, LSiM706c | PS Audio: Duet, Power Port Classic, PerfectWave AC5 x3 PC | Wireworld Equinox 7 IC | AudioPrism Quietline MkIII x7 | Sanus UF30 | OC703 Panels

    6.1 - Pioneer Elite SC-05 | Pio BDP-51FD | Polk: RTi8, CSi5, F/Xi3, CSi3 | HSU Research VTF-2 MK4 | PS Audio: Quintet, Power Port Classic | DCF124BW x3 SC | Pangea: AC-9SE x2, 14SE, 14 PC | AQ Chocolate x2 HDMI | M850SW | OC703 Panels
  • steveinazsteveinaz Posts: 18,929
    I made 2 attempts in the last 12yrs to integrate an SVS sub in my 2 channel, neither one worked long term. Just didn't care for it.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i | Preamp/DAC: PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell | Power Amp: Parasound Halo A21 | Speakers: PSB Imagine T2 | Cables: Signal Cable Analog 2 XLR; Kimber 8VS Bi-Wire; DH Labs D-75 Dig Coax | AC Power: Panamax M5300-PM
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