Elac Adante AF-61 (took some diy to make perfect)

joecoulson

Just wow.
I have been sick for a few weeks now and with work starting to ramp up after the holiday I have not been able to truly get these things dialed in. They have been sounding great and imaging well just glorious. But today I moved everything.
Speakers. Sub. Couch. All to dial in perfect synergy. Getting there. I keep experimenting with the toe in and have come to the conclusion that no toe in works best for my room. Off axis performance is mind blowing with the highs.
Playing the sub in all of the different modes and settings I have settled on no room Gain, 80hz cutoff, no extra parameters except reducing the gain by 4db to get closer to the output of the Elacs.
Playing Deep Forest and you would swear it’s a 5.1 disc. This has now truly become an experience as I cannot go through my music fast enough.
Playing Enigma at reference levels was like hearing it for the first time. No break up during 95db+ transients
The Linns are such a good match for them and I truly feel lucky for that. Could have been a bust on synergy.
Caring less and less about the little work I had to do as the days pass and just know it’s only going to get better as these things break in and open up.

SIHAB

Interesting. Are you using a "cheater" CD like the stereophile test CD
or just well known stuff? I was going to get LS50s for the small room
second system but was afraid that because I would have to place them
too close together I would have issues. Just wondering. Don't mean
anything by it.

verb

Joe sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Get better brother!

joecoulson

Thanks Dave

@SIHAB I am using CD’s that I have listened to probably a thousand times or more over the last 30+ years. Very familiar with the sound and imaging through the systems I have owned. I think (can’t say for sure on the KEF’s) that the concentric tweeter is better further apart. Not sure if that’s the same with mini monitors like the LS50’s but those are very intriguing. I would imagine they are slightly more focused than the Elac towers.

joecoulson

So I have some responses to share from Andrew Jones (who has given me permission to share on this site)

Email #1

Hi Joe.
My apologies for the late reply. I'm in Vegas as CES setting up and running the demos.
Regarding the problem with the speakers, we have been aware of a problem with some speakers in the first production batch and have instigated procedures to correct the issue.
As you found, it is a leak via the concentric driver wires, with not enough sealing compound on the back side of the panel through which the wires pass.
I must say, you are a brave individual to choose to dis-assemblecalmost completely the speaker to get at those wires!..... But we would have preferred that you had notified your dealer so that we could have dealt with the issue through normal channels.
However, we will definitely honor your warranty.
The good news for both of us is that you love the speakers 😁
Feel free to email me directly if you wish to ask any questions.

Best regards

Andrew

My reply:

Andrew,
Thank you for replying and agreeing to honor the warranty – as you relayed I am very happy (and continue to get happier ) with the speakers and love the design and sound they produce. The QC issues withstanding, they are truly a bargain.

With your permission, I would like to be able to post on my forum your reply so as to show your commitment to relationships with your customers. I think it would help the overall feel of the post on the forum I frequent (which is a very popular forum)

As a side note, also please note that there was leakage between the woofer chambers too – when pushing in the passive radiators (before I sealed them), they would alternately push out the driver above/below the one I was pushing on. This along with the mid enclosure seal has to affect the sound quality.

I will be at Axpona this year and look forward to meeting you in person (assuming your attendance)

Sincerely,


Joe Coulson


His reply:

Hi Joe.
I'm back from Vegas and now catching up on all thd stuff I didn't do while I was in Vegas...LOL.
Yes, you can post about my reply.

Regarding the leaks between the woofer chambers, there should always be a very slight leak in an enclosure that is basically closed to the outside environment, otherwise changes in air pressure, especially in shipping, cause displacement of, in this case, the passive radiators.
In this case also, slight leaks between chambers, basically at D.C., have no impact because since all three bass systems are identical, and all driven equally, then there is no dynamic pressure difference between the chambers and hence no dynamic air flow between them.

Regards

Andrew

Tony M

Interesting and insightful.

Andrew responding to your query personally is FANTASTIC of him.

Thanks for sharing the above with us.

halo

joecoulson wrote: »

Those were ported correct?

Yes, both the Energy and Elac speakers were rear ported.

joecoulson

Thanks Tony. I am overall very happy with this whole experience. I am sure others would be unhappy and sending back speakers that you have already opened is a massive hassle itself.
I also got feedback regarding the ports on the inside. Not sure if any of you noticed but there are two ports per bass enclosure. One of each of the two ports had a foam plug in there. I inquired about this and got the following reply:

Hi Joe.

That was put in there early on as I played with optimum tuning, to allow me more freedom.
At preproduction I decided my optimum tuning was with single vent so we blocked it. Later production simply eliminated it.
You would seriously mess up the performance if you unblock it!!

Regards

Andrew

This was very cool to know as I was curious what effect the plug had and even pondered taking it out to see. It’s very nice that the designer has taken the time to communicate back-and-forth with me regarding my issue and also the questions.
The speakers continue to impress me as they are opening up more every day from break in. I have had them at reference levels with very heavy bass tracks (some of my personal favorite music) and at low levels with hi res classical and everything in Inbetween. Sub on and sub off, they just do a great job. I have gobs of power on them (basically 350+ on each speaker) and they take it it strides.
Great company (as documented by Victors return process) and great speakers with these towers.

Clipdat

I'm very curious to hear how your guests enjoy them at your upcoming audio meet. If things go well I feel like ELAC will be selling a few more pairs of Adante towers.

joecoulson

Thanks Drew. Why don’t you fly out here and join??

Clipdat

Holding out for Axpona!

Willow

Very nice speakers Joe. I was looking them over on CAM and saw a dealer offering them at 3k off the price and are in white. I was very intrigued to say the least.

joecoulson

Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

Willow

joecoulson wrote: »

Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.

txcoastal1

Willow wrote: »

joecoulson wrote: »

Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.

Well why didn't you say so

joecoulson

Ah. Yes that makes me feel better. Thank You
Sounds about the same in USD as I got them.

joecoulson

I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements

I email Andrew Jones (who might just hope I disappear now as I am sure he is too busy to respond) and asked him the following:

Andrew – I came across these measurements in my perusing the internet with regards to the Adante’s:

'link above'

What I wonder is if the speaker reviewed was a first run (like the models I got – where QC was an issue) if that didn’t contribute to the sharper than expected roll off at 40hz (approx.) that the reviewer measured.
I say this because after the exercise I ran through (sealing each enclosure as much as I possibly could – so much so that when pushing in on each passive radiator they take some time to extend back to a resting position) I am measuring extended response into the 30hz range. This sort of gain in the lower bass region I attribute to sealing those boxes entirely. Do you concur with this and if so what are your thoughts?


I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully. The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.

mhardy6647

joecoulson wrote: »

I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements
...

Totally see your point, and it's an interesting question* but (and this is just rhetorical; for the purposes of discussion) wouldn't one assume that a review pair would be assessed by the mfgr or their reps to be working properly? Or do you suppose something about the construction of these speakers interferes with them "shipping well"?

I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully.

Strictly out of curiosity(!) -- How do you know they're fully broken in?

The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.

____________
* I assume (?) the "gripe" to which you refer is JA's comment:

The lower-frequency rolloff is also fourth-order, with an approximate –6dB frequency of 40Hz—higher than I would have expected for such a large loudspeaker.

joecoulson

No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.


I actually don't know they are fully broken in, I can only assume after 100+ hours of playing that they should be mostly at their peak performance

Andrew's response was:

The probable reason you measure into the 30Hz range is due to room modes and gain. Basically if a speaker is totally flat response to 20Hz, for example, then the in-room response will be elevated due the effects of the room. (This is very pronounced in an in-car environment)
It’s often the reason why adding a subwoofer to a stereo pair of speakers almost never sounds musical in the first instance.
So a speaker that rolls of in the nearfield measurement can often sound a little better than one that doesn’t. But it all comes down to setup and positioning.

and then a follow up comment (which I think is key here to the gripe)

It’s also a case that the room that the reviewer uses is large with connected spaces, and he knows that a lot of loudspeakers don’t load well in that room.
As always, rooms are critical to the performance of a speaker.



I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

Regarding toe in, this depends..!
I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.

mhardy6647

joecoulson wrote: »

No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.

Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet!

...

I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

Regarding toe in, this depends..!
I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.

Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).

[/quote]
It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.
[/quote]

mhardy6647

joecoulson wrote: »

No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.

Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet!

...

I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

Regarding toe in, this depends..!
I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.

Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).

It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.

... Thanks!

K_M

Very interesting to read for many reasons.
Loved the feedback from Mr. Jones and his ideas and comments.

Was amazed at how brave the O.P. was with his DIY "Repairs" of the quality control issue!

Hope it all works out well!

mhardy6647

I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional.

As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

________________
* Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

joecoulson

LOL, thanks Mark
I'll PM you info that you want

K_M

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional.

As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

________________
* Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

You know, I was not sure if it was Mister/Doctor, but have mostly seen his name written as "Andrew Jones", but totally agree he is very approachable and interested in talking about his "Creations" and the engineering that goes into them!

Tony M

I think Joe can call him Andy now.

joecoulson

He is approachable and an upstanding fellow. As Mark stated, unfortunately few and far between with the “designers” and decision makers these days.

mhardy6647

^^^ That is brilliant!

WLDock

DSkip wrote: »

Once you get to the high end and ultra high end, it becomes easier to run into the individual with their nose so high all you can see is the bottom of their chin.

Man did I find this out years ago. There were several shops in the metro Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lasing area at that time. Some would not give you the time of day and some would let you bring your own CD's and listen all day.

One sales guy even, After listening to my CD's for about an hour on the $25K-$30K+ systems at the time, made me go listen to the LARGE MartinLogans driven my the large tube monoblocks playing vinyl. Then, he dragged my over to the dimly lit space that was setup like a posh family room. Its had a full blown MacIntosh theater playing Jurassic park. He sat me down then walked out and locked the doors. LOL!

Needless to say, the difference between shops was night and day!

joecoulson

I have quite some time on these now and the bass has just kept on reaching deeper and deeper. The mids/highs have settled down some (maybe me just getting used to them?) and I can truly see why these are the top for AJ’s current offering.
So in love with these towers. Can’t wait to get some of these peeps coming Saturday to hear them too.