Elac Adante AF-61 (took some diy to make perfect)

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Comments

  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,268
    halo wrote: »
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Remember the green drivers and other issues on the first release?

    Yes, I do. I bought an entire set of them. After I got them, I listened to them. No bass response to speak of so I set up a return. Elac customer service was outstanding.
    How crazy is that? I think we both were impressed with the demo at AXPONA. I even asked A. Jones if the sub was playing during the demo. I guess its safe to say there was some quality control issue with the mass produced units verses the speakers they demoed at the show.

    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    Just wow.
    I have been sick for a few weeks now and with work starting to ramp up after the holiday I have not been able to truly get these things dialed in. They have been sounding great and imaging well just glorious. But today I moved everything.
    Speakers. Sub. Couch. All to dial in perfect synergy. Getting there. I keep experimenting with the toe in and have come to the conclusion that no toe in works best for my room. Off axis performance is mind blowing with the highs.
    Playing the sub in all of the different modes and settings I have settled on no room Gain, 80hz cutoff, no extra parameters except reducing the gain by 4db to get closer to the output of the Elacs.
    Playing Deep Forest and you would swear it’s a 5.1 disc. This has now truly become an experience as I cannot go through my music fast enough.
    Playing Enigma at reference levels was like hearing it for the first time. No break up during 95db+ transients
    The Linns are such a good match for them and I truly feel lucky for that. Could have been a bust on synergy.
    Caring less and less about the little work I had to do as the days pass and just know it’s only going to get better as these things break in and open up.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • SIHABSIHAB Posts: 480
    Interesting. Are you using a "cheater" CD like the stereophile test CD
    or just well known stuff? I was going to get LS50s for the small room
    second system but was afraid that because I would have to place them
    too close together I would have issues. Just wondering. Don't mean
    anything by it.
  • verbverb Posts: 4,499
    Joe sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Get better brother!
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Rega RP1 TT, VTL 2.5 Preamplifier, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs DAC, Conrad Johnson MF2300A Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, Marantz CD-1 transport, Marantz AMP-1, Acoustic Technologies Classic Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus Subwoofer, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Project BoxE Bluetooth Streamer, Polk TSi200's
    Living Room: Pioneer SX-N30 Network Receiver, Pioneer PD10AE CD Player, Furman M8-LX Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi Subwoofer
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    Thanks Dave

    @SIHAB I am using CD’s that I have listened to probably a thousand times or more over the last 30+ years. Very familiar with the sound and imaging through the systems I have owned. I think (can’t say for sure on the KEF’s) that the concentric tweeter is better further apart. Not sure if that’s the same with mini monitors like the LS50’s but those are very intriguing. I would imagine they are slightly more focused than the Elac towers.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,875
    Interesting and insightful.

    Andrew responding to your query personally is FANTASTIC of him.

    Thanks for sharing the above with us.
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • halohalo Posts: 4,637
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    Thanks Tony. I am overall very happy with this whole experience. I am sure others would be unhappy and sending back speakers that you have already opened is a massive hassle itself.
    I also got feedback regarding the ports on the inside. Not sure if any of you noticed but there are two ports per bass enclosure. One of each of the two ports had a foam plug in there. I inquired about this and got the following reply:

    Hi Joe.

    That was put in there early on as I played with optimum tuning, to allow me more freedom.
    At preproduction I decided my optimum tuning was with single vent so we blocked it. Later production simply eliminated it.
    You would seriously mess up the performance if you unblock it!!

    Regards

    Andrew

    This was very cool to know as I was curious what effect the plug had and even pondered taking it out to see. It’s very nice that the designer has taken the time to communicate back-and-forth with me regarding my issue and also the questions.
    The speakers continue to impress me as they are opening up more every day from break in. I have had them at reference levels with very heavy bass tracks (some of my personal favorite music) and at low levels with hi res classical and everything in Inbetween. Sub on and sub off, they just do a great job. I have gobs of power on them (basically 350+ on each speaker) and they take it it strides.
    Great company (as documented by Victors return process) and great speakers with these towers.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 5,235
    I'm very curious to hear how your guests enjoy them at your upcoming audio meet. If things go well I feel like ELAC will be selling a few more pairs of Adante towers.
    • "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    Thanks Drew. Why don’t you fly out here and join??
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 5,235
    Holding out for Axpona!
    • "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • WillowWillow Posts: 9,238
    Very nice speakers Joe. I was looking them over on CAM and saw a dealer offering them at 3k off the price and are in white. I was very intrigued to say the least.
    2Ch- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Tributaries Optical, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung 55JS7000, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Rotel RDV 1045 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Marantz DV 4200 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium or Neutron App to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • WillowWillow Posts: 9,238
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

    That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.
    2Ch- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Tributaries Optical, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung 55JS7000, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Rotel RDV 1045 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Marantz DV 4200 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium or Neutron App to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e

  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 10,167
    Willow wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

    That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.

    Well why didn't you say so

    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    edited January 17
    Ah. Yes that makes me feel better. Thank You
    Sounds about the same in USD as I got them.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements

    I email Andrew Jones (who might just hope I disappear now as I am sure he is too busy to respond) and asked him the following:

    Andrew – I came across these measurements in my perusing the internet with regards to the Adante’s:

    'link above'

    What I wonder is if the speaker reviewed was a first run (like the models I got – where QC was an issue) if that didn’t contribute to the sharper than expected roll off at 40hz (approx.) that the reviewer measured.
    I say this because after the exercise I ran through (sealing each enclosure as much as I possibly could – so much so that when pushing in on each passive radiator they take some time to extend back to a resting position) I am measuring extended response into the 30hz range. This sort of gain in the lower bass region I attribute to sealing those boxes entirely. Do you concur with this and if so what are your thoughts?



    I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully. The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 20,046
    edited January 21
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements
    ...
    Totally see your point, and it's an interesting question* but (and this is just rhetorical; for the purposes of discussion) wouldn't one assume that a review pair would be assessed by the mfgr or their reps to be working properly? Or do you suppose something about the construction of these speakers interferes with them "shipping well"?
    I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully.

    Strictly out of curiosity(!) -- How do you know they're fully broken in?
    The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.

    ____________
    * I assume (?) the "gripe" to which you refer is JA's comment:
    The lower-frequency rolloff is also fourth-order, with an approximate –6dB frequency of 40Hz—higher than I would have expected for such a large loudspeaker.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.


    I actually don't know they are fully broken in, I can only assume after 100+ hours of playing that they should be mostly at their peak performance

    Andrew's response was:

    The probable reason you measure into the 30Hz range is due to room modes and gain. Basically if a speaker is totally flat response to 20Hz, for example, then the in-room response will be elevated due the effects of the room. (This is very pronounced in an in-car environment)
    It’s often the reason why adding a subwoofer to a stereo pair of speakers almost never sounds musical in the first instance.
    So a speaker that rolls of in the nearfield measurement can often sound a little better than one that doesn’t. But it all comes down to setup and positioning.


    and then a follow up comment (which I think is key here to the gripe)

    It’s also a case that the room that the reviewer uses is large with connected spaces, and he knows that a lot of loudspeakers don’t load well in that room.
    As always, rooms are critical to the performance of a speaker.



    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 20,046
    joecoulson wrote: »
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.
    Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet! :#
    ...

    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).

    [/quote]
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.
    [/quote]

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 20,046
    edited January 21
    joecoulson wrote: »
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.
    Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet! :#
    ...

    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.

    ... Thanks!
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,143
    Very interesting to read for many reasons.
    Loved the feedback from Mr. Jones and his ideas and comments.

    Was amazed at how brave the O.P. was with his DIY "Repairs" of the quality control issue!

    Hope it all works out well!
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-
    Epos-
    Infinity-
    Advent-

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 20,046
    edited 10:34AM
    I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

    This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low :# ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. :| Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional. ;)

    As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

    ________________
    * Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! ;) He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    LOL, thanks Mark
    I'll PM you info that you want
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,143
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

    This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low :# ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. :| Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional. ;)

    As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

    ________________
    * Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! ;) He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

    You know, I was not sure if it was Mister/Doctor, but have mostly seen his name written as "Andrew Jones", but totally agree he is very approachable and interested in talking about his "Creations" and the engineering that goes into them!
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-
    Epos-
    Infinity-
    Advent-

  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,875
    edited 12:06PM
    I think Joe can call him Andy now. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 1,511
    He is approachable and an upstanding fellow. As Mark stated, unfortunately few and far between with the “designers” and decision makers these days.

    7f2kiol6c0ix.jpeg
    2ch: PS Audio Stellar Gain pre, 4 x Linn LK240 monoblocks ( bi-amping) Elac Adante AF-61's, SVS SB16 Ultra Subwoofer, Cambridge Audio CXN v2, Rega Planar 2 with upgrades, Vincent PHO 701 Phono pre, Audioquest Niagara 1000, AQ Thunder, AQ XLR's and IC's, Wireworld Stratus and Aurora power cables, Atlas EOS power cable, Denon 2910 (as transport) Sony CPD355 Jukebox cd

    5.1: Marantz sr5003 (feeding mains through HT bypass) Sonus Faber solo center, AQ Carbon HDMI's, Sony XBRx900E, Xbox One S as 4k player, Definitive Technology SM350's surrounds, Tivo Bolt, Harmony Elite remote

    Other gear: Totem Rainmakers (not hooked up) Sonos play 5 and play 1's x 2, Audio Technica TT and Edifier active speakers in kids room, JVC XM448 minidisc rack mount, Sony minidisc walkman, Project Debut III (currently not working), Samsung 46, and 2 x32" tvs, Samsung Soundbar, Okki Nokki LP cleaner, Second Harmony remote setup for bedroom, etc etc
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 20,046
    edited 1:30PM
    ^^^ That is brilliant!
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 15,257
    This represents much of the hifi world in my opinion. Not to take away from Andrew and his responses, but I've found the majority of industry people to be very approachable and they truly share in the love of stereo. I have run into a few exceptions to that rule (including one who seems to have a personal vendetta against me) but the world in general is full of intelligent and enthusiastic hobbyists who just happen to work inside the industry.

    As a side note to that, I think you find this to be even truer for those who design or work with the entry level and mid-fi gear. Once you get to the high end and ultra high end, it becomes easier to run into the individual with their nose so high all you can see is the bottom of their chin.
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
    Amps: Shuguang S845MK, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks, Parasound A23
    Integrateds: Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: BoX, Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
    Sources: AURALiC Aries, Denon HEOS Link, North Star Design: Magnifico, Supremo, Incanto, Intenso, Venti
    Cabling: Wireworld
    TV: Sony XBR-75X940C
13»
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