How to determine if a cable is neutral.

K_M

nooshinjohn wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

You mean well K_M, but you seem to have little understanding about this particular subject. The only was a signal can be transmitted unaltered, is if you are watching an acoustic performance live and in person, no speakers, microphones, electric guitars... nothing but an unfettered completely acoustic performance.

EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING that is electrified, recorded, and played back by any form of audio equipment is altering the signal as it was originally intended. The goal of a high fidelity stereo system is to do as little additional damage to that recorded signal as possible. Therefore, everything in the signal path is critically important to faithfully reproducing the sound.

EVERYTHING matters, and some gear just don't work well together for that purpose, while others do. Some cables work exceptionally well and others don't. The critical factor in how well a system works as a whole is determined by the listener. I have heard setups, that to my ears, sounded like Yoko Ono strangling a cat, while the owner of that system says it is his greatest achievement in sound reproduction.

Excellent sound is in the ears of the individual listening.

Again K_M, I am not in any way trying to diminish your prodigious experience or the insightful gifts you bring to the forum. Instead I would suggest that you perhaps consider the concept that others may have a considerable amount of experience in these areas, and sometimes deferring to those with more experience could be a great benefit to your learning and understanding as well.

Experience............(with all due respect) and maybe you will be able to hopefully understand my point of view a bit more....

I have learned a great deal from experience. Truly.
While we were members of a few other audio forums, we discussed and debated with several other fellow audiophiles over the merits of cables over a long time.
Same as any audio forum, there is TOTAL disagreement over cables.

Over a period of time, we finally arranged to have a few of the guys that were extremely certain of their views, come over to our larger house in Pa, and stay over a long weekend.

I told this story here before, but the condensed version, we did several comparisons with cables of their choice.
Some even brought their own amps and speakers along for the drive and weekend bash.

Our findings were fairly unprofessional, buy quite fun at the same time.
My takeaway from the event........

1. People are much cooler in person, if given food and alcohol, as compared to their online "personas"
2. Some people listen at REALLY high volumes...!!

3. Never will I do this sorta thing again (for various personal reasons..don't ask)

4. The ability of some listeners drastically changes in real life, as compared to what they claim online.

5. In the end we found, that not only were we, unable to identify better cables, versus cheap zip cord, but the guys that said for sure they could lost their abilities. Maybe alcohol, maybe simply they were bragging so much...no idea.

6. One neighbor that hung out that had almost no experience in audio, could somewhat identify the good cables from zip cord. Not sure what that infers.

7. The thread about the get together, turned into chaos, after several on both sides of the cable debate started bashing each other.
All the comparison "data",equipment used and cables used and participants names and so on were all scrubbed and the thread subsequently removed and several banned.

So my personal experience with "others".....is that often online claims are not supported in real life.

Not bashing your experience, truly you seem to be an intelligent and nice guy, and I know a dozen variables go into any comparison, making this nothing definitive at all.

But when some, the most adamant about their abilities and experiences, does not follow through to their "real world" abilities, maybe that helps explain my skepticism about other's experiences and claims and so on.

I now attribute a lot of things in audio, more into the realm of the "human factor of variability"

nooshinjohn

The trouble with your test is that you completely altered every single variable you were wanting to test. Your home, and not theirs... a pile of miscellaneous gear, and not theirs, alcohol involved... I could go on and on about how your test methodology was flawed and therefore has no merit whatsoever, but someone of your vast experience should be able to see that.

I don’t see cables as a cure to a bad system but rather as a component that makes up the whole. Everything matters.

marvda1

so what you are saying is, the perfect ice cream has no flavor. you ask that everyone else have an open mind but your mind is the ultimate closed. you should be banned for uttering the words, cables have no sound, as this proves you are just a TROLL.

my last dying words.

K_M

marvda1 wrote: »

so what you are saying is, the perfect ice cream has no flavor. you ask that everyone else have an open mind but your mind is the ultimate closed. you should be banned for uttering the words, cables have no sound, as this proves you are just a TROLL.

my last dying words.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The trouble with your test is that you completely altered every single variable you were wanting to test. Your home, and not theirs... a pile of miscellaneous gear, and not theirs, alcohol involved... I could go on and on about how your test methodology was flawed and therefore has no merit whatsoever, but someone of your vast experience should be able to see that.

I don’t see cables as a cure to a bad system but rather as a component that makes up the whole. Everything matters.

Yeah and I get that. Completely, I even said it was not very scientific.

But I took the time to do it, and talk about it with you.

There was merit in the experiment for sure.
Some of the guys, made claims that were far bigger than ALL the variables concerned in the test, but themselves said none of that mattered, UNTIL they were unable to identify cables....then they used that as their reason.

In other words, they changed the rules of the game midway.
It does not say a lot about the cables, but more about the claims.

K_M

marvda1 wrote: »

so what you are saying is, the perfect ice cream has no flavor. you ask that everyone else have an open mind but your mind is the ultimate closed. you should be banned for uttering the words, cables have no sound, as this proves you are just a TROLL.

my last dying words.

Why not delete the personal attacks, and take some time to write a few paragraphs, actually addressing the topic of cables, as I did.
Whether you agree with me or not, your post comes off as something pointless, that would be better suited to PM.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

Wow...........just Wow! Listen to silver cable and copper cable and tell me they sound the same.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know. And some will never take the time or have an open mind to know.

H9

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

Again, just WOW.

There is no such thing as an unaltered signal.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

Like I said, listen to a copper cable vs. silver cable and tell me there is no difference?

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

Like I said, listen to a copper cable vs. silver cable and tell me there is no difference?

H9

You may be misunderstanding me.
Cables can "alter the sound", but do not produce sound is what I mean.

Excuse me if my language is not precise, at times I still have to look up for sure definitions of words to get exact meanings.

I like to feel I am american and have a total grasp of language but was not truly an english speaker to begin with.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

Like I said, listen to a copper cable vs. silver cable and tell me there is no difference?

H9

You may be misunderstanding me.
Cables can "alter the sound", but do not produce sound is what I mean.

What? Oxymoron much......that makes no sense at all. If they alter the sound, then they are in fact producing their own sound (different from the input).

I guess I should be saying (for you to understand); is all electrical signals made through cables can sound different.

H9

heiney9

Strawman explanations don't hold much water, since they are so hollow in their logic.

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

I am willing to bet if you took 2 measurements one at the end of a speaker cable, and one at the beginning (in theory the no cable at all end) and inverted one signal, if they are exactly the same, (but opposite) the differences would cancel each other out and result in a "flat line".

If there was degradation (even minimal) then the inverted signals would not cancel each other out, and the result would be the difference signal, between the ideal of no cable at all, and the effect the actual cable imparts on the signal.

The first part has been covered very extensively and a peer reviewed paper was even published by Darqueknight a few years back.

He has posted his findings in great detail about measuring cables and he didn't find what you are suggesting.

I though perhaps you might have paid attention to those posts as they were super informative and used scientific method to make conclusions.

The 2nd part is a very, very, very loose explanation of Pass Labs Supersymmetry patent (up to the point I highlighted). But it is designed to cancel certain orders of distortion and noise in amplifier circuits. Has nothing to do with making cables neutral.

Here's further reading if you're interested

https://www.passlabs.com/press/super-symmetric-amplification

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

Like I said, listen to a copper cable vs. silver cable and tell me there is no difference?

H9

You may be misunderstanding me.
Cables can "alter the sound", but do not produce sound is what I mean.

What? Oxymoron much......that makes no sense at all. If they alter the sound, then they are in fact producing their own sound (different from the input).

I guess I should be saying (for you to understand); is all electrical signals made through cables can sound different.

H9

I read sound producer as a device that makes audible sound, such as an instrument, a loud speaker cone, or the sound of 2 boards being hit together.

Electrical components, do not "Sound" or create audible sounds.
Yes I understand your last comment.
When you say "sound", you mean an electrical alteration to the final sound heard?

heiney9

You sure do like to obfuscate by changing your target. I have no idea how we got from altering an electrical signal to "sound producer". I think it's obvious no one has stated that cables are a "sound producer". But they do alter the signal and that alteration can many times be heard, recognized and plotted. And different cables can have a different sound outcome.

I'm out of this one as K_M keeps changing the target as per usual.

If your excuse is that you don't have a good grasp on what you're trying to convey, then best to stay out of the debate.

H9

lightman1

I like magic tricks.

mark090852

K_M wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

You mean well K_M, but you seem to have little understanding about this particular subject. The only was a signal can be transmitted unaltered, is if you are watching an acoustic performance live and in person, no speakers, microphones, electric guitars... nothing but an unfettered completely acoustic performance.

EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING that is electrified, recorded, and played back by any form of audio equipment is altering the signal as it was originally intended. The goal of a high fidelity stereo system is to do as little additional damage to that recorded signal as possible. Therefore, everything in the signal path is critically important to faithfully reproducing the sound.

EVERYTHING matters, and some gear just don't work well together for that purpose, while others do. Some cables work exceptionally well and others don't. The critical factor in how well a system works as a whole is determined by the listener. I have heard setups, that to my ears, sounded like Yoko Ono strangling a cat, while the owner of that system says it is his greatest achievement in sound reproduction.

Excellent sound is in the ears of the individual listening.

Again K_M, I am not in any way trying to diminish your prodigious experience or the insightful gifts you bring to the forum. Instead I would suggest that you perhaps consider the concept that others may have a considerable amount of experience in these areas, and sometimes deferring to those with more experience could be a great benefit to your learning and understanding as well.

Experience............(with all due respect) and maybe you will be able to hopefully understand my point of view a bit more....

I have learned a great deal from experience. Truly.
While we were members of a few other audio forums, we discussed and debated with several other fellow audiophiles over the merits of cables over a long time.
Same as any audio forum, there is TOTAL disagreement over cables.

Over a period of time, we finally arranged to have a few of the guys that were extremely certain of their views, come over to our larger house in Pa, and stay over a long weekend.

I told this story here before, but the condensed version, we did several comparisons with cables of their choice.
Some even brought their own amps and speakers along for the drive and weekend bash.

Our findings were fairly unprofessional, buy quite fun at the same time.
My takeaway from the event........

1. People are much cooler in person, if given food and alcohol, as compared to their online "personas"
2. Some people listen at REALLY high volumes...!!

3. Never will I do this sorta thing again (for various personal reasons..don't ask)

4. The ability of some listeners drastically changes in real life, as compared to what they claim online.

5. In the end we found, that not only were we, unable to identify better cables, versus cheap zip cord, but the guys that said for sure they could lost their abilities. Maybe alcohol, maybe simply they were bragging so much...no idea.

6. One neighbor that hung out that had almost no experience in audio, could somewhat identify the good cables from zip cord. Not sure what that infers.

7. The thread about the get together, turned into chaos, after several on both sides of the cable debate started bashing each other.
All the comparison "data",equipment used and cables used and participants names and so on were all scrubbed and the thread subsequently removed and several banned.

So my personal experience with "others".....is that often online claims are not supported in real life.

Not bashing your experience, truly you seem to be an intelligent and nice guy, and I know a dozen variables go into any comparison, making this nothing definitive at all.

But when some, the most adamant about their abilities and experiences, does not follow through to their "real world" abilities, maybe that helps explain my skepticism about other's experiences and claims and so on.

I now attribute a lot of things in audio, more into the realm of the "human factor of variability"

@K_M , I appreciate that you took the time to explain your experience with such an "audiophile" weekend. I found the results to be not unexpected, and your conclusions to be very understandable.

I wish others on this forum would arrange similar "weekend get-togethers". I, and many others, would likely find the results to be very enlightening, no matter which side of the cable debate you are on.

By agreement, absolutely no bashing, trashing, or sassing...just a couple of days here and there listening to some really cool audio gear, cables included, and demonstrating the ability to identify which components and cables sound better to our own ears. How could that not be fun? It's a win/win situation.

joecoulson

Squeaky wheel gets the oil.

F1nut

mark090852 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

You mean well K_M, but you seem to have little understanding about this particular subject. The only was a signal can be transmitted unaltered, is if you are watching an acoustic performance live and in person, no speakers, microphones, electric guitars... nothing but an unfettered completely acoustic performance.

EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING that is electrified, recorded, and played back by any form of audio equipment is altering the signal as it was originally intended. The goal of a high fidelity stereo system is to do as little additional damage to that recorded signal as possible. Therefore, everything in the signal path is critically important to faithfully reproducing the sound.

EVERYTHING matters, and some gear just don't work well together for that purpose, while others do. Some cables work exceptionally well and others don't. The critical factor in how well a system works as a whole is determined by the listener. I have heard setups, that to my ears, sounded like Yoko Ono strangling a cat, while the owner of that system says it is his greatest achievement in sound reproduction.

Excellent sound is in the ears of the individual listening.

Again K_M, I am not in any way trying to diminish your prodigious experience or the insightful gifts you bring to the forum. Instead I would suggest that you perhaps consider the concept that others may have a considerable amount of experience in these areas, and sometimes deferring to those with more experience could be a great benefit to your learning and understanding as well.

Experience............(with all due respect) and maybe you will be able to hopefully understand my point of view a bit more....

I have learned a great deal from experience. Truly.
While we were members of a few other audio forums, we discussed and debated with several other fellow audiophiles over the merits of cables over a long time.
Same as any audio forum, there is TOTAL disagreement over cables.

Over a period of time, we finally arranged to have a few of the guys that were extremely certain of their views, come over to our larger house in Pa, and stay over a long weekend.

I told this story here before, but the condensed version, we did several comparisons with cables of their choice.
Some even brought their own amps and speakers along for the drive and weekend bash.

Our findings were fairly unprofessional, buy quite fun at the same time.
My takeaway from the event........

1. People are much cooler in person, if given food and alcohol, as compared to their online "personas"
2. Some people listen at REALLY high volumes...!!

3. Never will I do this sorta thing again (for various personal reasons..don't ask)

4. The ability of some listeners drastically changes in real life, as compared to what they claim online.

5. In the end we found, that not only were we, unable to identify better cables, versus cheap zip cord, but the guys that said for sure they could lost their abilities. Maybe alcohol, maybe simply they were bragging so much...no idea.

6. One neighbor that hung out that had almost no experience in audio, could somewhat identify the good cables from zip cord. Not sure what that infers.

7. The thread about the get together, turned into chaos, after several on both sides of the cable debate started bashing each other.
All the comparison "data",equipment used and cables used and participants names and so on were all scrubbed and the thread subsequently removed and several banned.

So my personal experience with "others".....is that often online claims are not supported in real life.

Not bashing your experience, truly you seem to be an intelligent and nice guy, and I know a dozen variables go into any comparison, making this nothing definitive at all.

But when some, the most adamant about their abilities and experiences, does not follow through to their "real world" abilities, maybe that helps explain my skepticism about other's experiences and claims and so on.

I now attribute a lot of things in audio, more into the realm of the "human factor of variability"

@K_M , I appreciate that you took the time to explain your experience with such an "audiophile" weekend. I found the results to be not unexpected, and your conclusions to be very understandable.

I wish others on this forum would arrange similar "weekend get-togethers". I, and many others, would likely find the results to be very enlightening, no matter which side of the cable debate you are on.

By agreement, absolutely no bashing, trashing, or sassing...just a couple of days here and there listening to some really cool audio gear, cables included, and demonstrating the ability to identify which components and cables sound better to our own ears. How could that not be fun? It's a win/win situation.

There are many of us that have gotten together repeatedly over the years to explore all things audio and posted about it in this forum. I dare say most if not all could hear the differences between cables.

marvda1

k_m, i'd be interested in knowing what interconnects, speaker cables, digital cables, and power cables you are using?

Clipdat

marvda1 wrote: »

k_m, i'd be interested in knowing what interconnects, speaker cables, digital cables, and power cables you are using?

How about instead I tell you what I'm using? It'll be much more interesting.

ICs: Audioquest King Cobra
SCs: MIT Terminator 2 Bi-Wire (EAR 20.4 version) (Also own Audioquest Bedrock)
Digital cables: Douglas Connection Bravo, Audioquest Carbon
PCs: Shunyata Venom 14
Power conditioner: PS Audio Dectet

nooshinjohn

I think it is quite easy to spot which posters are neutral....

audioluvr

Has anyone else just blazed through this entire post without really reading it?

mrbigbluelight

Wait a sec, I want to make sure that I clear up one issue for myself:

we finally arranged to have a few of the guys that were extremely certain of their views, come over to our larger house in Pa, and stay over a long weekend.

So .... are we talking complimentary beverages and snacks here ? I feel that would be the proper thing to do. I want to make sure of that issue before I accept an invite to your hacienda.
Also kind of curious about the sleeping arrangements. There's not going to be any kind of that East Coast preversion stuff is there ? Not that that's a bad thing, but .... the fact that I'm from the Show Me state shouldn't be taken literally.

And regarding your "larger" house in PA. You know, we done got the 12 stall barn with the extended hay loft so just how much more bigger are we talking ? Just want to get the details down before showing up.

lightman1

Sweet! I'll stay in the hayloft!

heiney9

Make sure the horses aren't in there if Russ is!!!

H9

tonyb

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

Like I said, listen to a copper cable vs. silver cable and tell me there is no difference?

H9

You may be misunderstanding me.
Cables can "alter the sound", but do not produce sound is what I mean.

You mean by the same token your ears can hear sound, but don't actually produce it ? Your point of altering the sound is precisely what we are talking about. If we can agree that cables "alter the sound", then you must agree different cables alter it differently....yes ?

Back to a so called "neutral" cable. So we agree cables can alter the sound, can we therefor agree each persons ears hear sound differently ? Our own ears alter what we hear, yes ?

So then, what's neutral to one persons perceptions may not be to anothers, yes ?

What is this baseline for neutral anyway ? How do we know it's the cables influence, or the gear ? We can't tell if it's the gear until we....hook a cable up to it right ? So you immediately altered that sound by hooking a cable to that gear. How do we know if it's the cables influence and not the gear.....it depends on one's perception, and it's more so how a particular cable makes the gear/signal sound as that signal flows through it....and signal flows vary between cables depending on the type and quality of material used, design.

A system is a compilation of altered sounds, altered by gear, source material, cables, and speakers. Getting the right combination, in the right dosage, to please a personal preference is what audio is all about....and the fun in the journey.

What was the argument about again ?

steveinaz

Guys, lets stop the pile-on crap ok? This is all opinion based observation, and is subject to everyone's personal hearing abilities; talk about variables. K_M discussed a get together, gave the disclaimers, and told the story of what they found in that informal setting. If you disagree, fine; there's no need to make it personal.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Guys, lets stop the pile-on crap ok? This is all opinion based observation, and is subject to everyone's personal hearing abilities; talk about variables. K_M discussed a get together, gave the disclaimers, and told the story of what they found in that informal setting. If you disagree, fine; there's no need to make it personal.

NVM......................

H9

afterburnt

After reading this thread I threw up in my mouth and then threw away all of my cables. Now all I can hear is my blood cells coliding with the plaque clogging my arteries and something foul boiling in my colon. At least the voices are gone now.

Clipdat

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Again K_M, I am not in any way trying to diminish your prodigious experience or the insightful gifts you bring to the forum.