How to determine if a cable is neutral.

mikeyb128 · December 2018

Ok folks. I’ve heard this enough. And mentioned a lot. People often refer to
Cables and equipment as neutral. How exactly is this determined? I’m 110% a cable believer. But, who exactly determines when a cable or piece of equipment is neutral. And how do these tests come about? Besides ones ears?

F1nut · December 2018

When my ears aren't ready to bleed from a hot top end or it doesn't sound lifeless and muddy, then it's neutral. My sound preference is slighty to the warm side of neutral.

SIHAB · December 2018

Though I think it unlikely, a neutral cable in one system may not be in another!
Then there is your ability to hear...

tonyb · December 2018

True ^^^

In my book, neutral means not adding or subtracting anything from the signal, not warm, not cold as ice.

I would argue though, even a neutral cable would add or subtract something from the sound....maybe more/less weight/tone, soundstage, air , etc.

If we were to define neutral simply by the balance between warm and cold, I think AQ cables would fit that mold. Balanced cables also do well for neutral sounding cables. Just my opinion there.

VR3 · December 2018

Every component alters the signal a little bit, all about finding components that work well together, ie... Synergy

EndersShadow · December 2018

You ask the cable if it’s votes Democrat or Republican. If it says “varied based on the issue” then it’s neutral

tonyb · December 2018

True again Trey, but as we argued in the other thread, one has to consider cables a component in one's system, When you don't, your missing a key ingredient that could bring everything together.

K_M · December 2018

[quote="DSkip;c-2467144" As you move up the line, you get other aspects to the sound - cleaner, more detailed, better separation, extended soundstage in all directions, wider frequency range...

[/quote]

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

F1nut · December 2018

Gawd, you still don't get it. Every piece in a rig including cables adds or subtracts and makes it better or worse.

pitdogg2 · December 2018

Seriously Kelly ?
Shakes head walks away......

mdaudioguy · December 2018

K_M wrote: »

[quote="DSkip;c-2467144" As you move up the line, you get other aspects to the sound - cleaner, more detailed, better separation, extended soundstage in all directions, wider frequency range...

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

I'm concerned about your quoting ability.

Hermitism · December 2018

mdaudioguy wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

[quote="DSkip;c-2467144" As you move up the line, you get other aspects to the sound - cleaner, more detailed, better separation, extended soundstage in all directions, wider frequency range...

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

I'm concerned about your quoting ability.

At least it's above her reply.

BlueFox · December 2018

It amazes me that people post, and then don't check to make sure it is correct. She is missing the right bracket in her quote.

GlennDog · December 2018

To answer the OPs question. I've no clue

I'm no interior decorator, but I know what I like when I see it

I've never claimed to be an audiophile, but I know what I like when I hear it

About 4 weeks ago, I rolled 4 lightly used WW PCs into my system. At first, meh. This weekend wowza!

I prefer the warmer side of neutral and Schitte is sounding wonderful!

mikeyb128 · December 2018

GlennDog wrote: »

To answer the OPs question. I've no clue

I'm no interior decorator, but I know what I like when I see it

I've never claimed to be an audiophile, but I know what I like when I hear it

About 4 weeks ago, I rolled 4 lightly used WW PCs into my system. At first, meh. This weekend wowza!

I prefer the warmer side of neutral and Schitte is sounding wonderful!

I faced a smiliar experience a few weeks ago. Purchased 2 WW silver Electra 7 PC’s for a good deal. Put them in and was very, very disappointed. A few weeks go by and holy $&&@!

mikeyb128 · December 2018

Thanks for the comments guys. My question seems a little silly. Wanted to see what others definitions of neutral were.

I’ve listened to a lot of amps considered to be neutral, that came off as cold and a little edgy.

tonyb · December 2018

mikeyb128 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments guys. My question seems a little silly. Wanted to see what others definitions of neutral were.

I’ve listened to a lot of amps considered to be neutral, that came off as cold and a little edgy.

Not uncommon, most things I hear billed as "neutral come off as cold and sterile sounding. I also prefer a bit on the warmer side of neutral.

cortico · January 2019

Neutrality is when nothing is missing, displaced or highlighted. When the attention is pulled towards isolated aspect of the listening material, it's not neutral.

mhardy6647 · January 2019

cortico wrote: »

Neutrality is when nothing is missing, displaced or highlighted. When the attention is pulled towards isolated aspect of the listening material, it's not neutral.

FWIW, I would agree -- and, to amplify

this notion a little bit, I think that when a hifi is doin' its job, hifi-wise, it is possible for the listener to pick a focal point and listen into the reproduced recording (music!) as she or he sees fit. For example, one can choose to pick apart, say, a three- or four-part vocal harmony and focus one's attention on one part.

One of the local vacuum tube gurus up my way refers to listening in to the music. Not the mix, but the music.

When the focus is pulled to anything but the music (program material) itself -- I would opine* that there's something less than optimal going on

________________
* Heck, I'd argue the point -- but then again, I can be one argumentative S O B when it comes to some of this stuff (stupid & pointless though that be)!

tonyb · January 2019

cortico wrote: »

Neutrality is when nothing is missing, displaced or highlighted. When the attention is pulled towards isolated aspect of the listening material, it's not neutral.

I can go along with that, mostly. How does one know if it's the cable or the gear being neutral....or not ?

mantis · January 2019

tonyb wrote: »

True ^^^

In my book, neutral means not adding or subtracting anything from the signal, not warm, not cold as ice.

I would argue though, even a neutral cable would add or subtract something from the sound....maybe more/less weight/tone, soundstage, air , etc.

If we were to define neutral simply by the balance between warm and cold, I think AQ cables would fit that mold. Balanced cables also do well for neutral sounding cables. Just my opinion there.

Agreed. Audioquest builds all their cables with neutral in mind. They want their cables to pass along the signal with nothing lost as much as possible.

mantis · January 2019

DSkip wrote: »

Neutral cables are Transparent in the system. They allow each component to add its own flavor and showcase what said component can do for a system. Neutral cables also transfer from system to system without much issue.

I know for a fact Wireworld measures their cables and uses this as a major determinant for any products they release. The overall tone doesn't change much because they strive for an unflavored tonal balance. As you move up the line, you get other aspects to the sound - cleaner, more detailed, better separation, extended soundstage in all directions, wider frequency range...

You don't have to have neutral cables to get stellar sound. That is why many use them as tuning devices. I have found it much easier to evaluate gear with neutral cables for the reason above.

This also can be said about Audioquest. It's why stuck with them all these years because they work in all systems. I noticed this many years ago when I was comparing different cables in different systems in different rooms.

heiney9 · January 2019

K_M wrote: »

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

Wow...........just Wow! Listen to silver cable and copper cable and tell me they sound the same.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know. And some will never take the time or have an open mind to know.

H9

BlueFox · January 2019

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

Wow...........just Wow! Listen to silver cable and copper cable and tell me they sound the same.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know. And some will never take the time or have an open mind to know.

H9

If they don’t sound the same then one, or both, aren’t neutral. Of course, the hard part is creating a neutral cable.

steveinaz · January 2019

Be it cables or any other equipment, I think the human voice is the best reference for both neutrality, and driver integration. Just MY 2 cents.

heiney9 · January 2019

...and piano too. Ultra hard to reproduce piano notes accurately.

As with human vocals, piano and everything else, we are still at the mercy of the recording process.

But if one can single out a few recordings they are absolutely audibly familiar with, use those (and only those) to compare components, cables, etc. You start to form a base of knowledge.

Also, everything adds or subtracts something. We all have our preferences and certain designers work extremely hard at reducing the adds and subtracts, but you will never eliminate them all, it's the nature of the beast and fundamentally impossible when you have so many variables in play (caps, wire, diodes, resistors, cable type, cable composition, listening position, room effects, mental acuity of listening.....and on and on and on.....

I would also bet most if not all people would not like listening to recordings and gear that are as close to neutral as possible. It can be rather stale, lifeless and flat.

One also has to clearly define what neutral means to them, specifically and technically. Simply saying "a clean unadulterated signal", means nothing because that's not possible in the real world. Also, what's clean? No 2nd harmonic, no 3rd harmonic, what level and what type of distortion.? Some types of distortion are preferred and/or occur naturally. Take those away or minimize them, is it still the same realistic signal or is it altered from its natural state?

H9

K_M · January 2019

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

Wow...........just Wow! Listen to silver cable and copper cable and tell me they sound the same.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know. And some will never take the time or have an open mind to know.

H9

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

F1nut · January 2019

There is no such thing as an unaltered signal. That's Audio 101.

nooshinjohn · January 2019

K_M wrote: »

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

You mean well K_M, but you seem to have little understanding about this particular subject. The only was a signal can be transmitted unaltered, is if you are watching an acoustic performance live and in person, no speakers, microphones, electric guitars... nothing but an unfettered completely acoustic performance.

EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING that is electrified, recorded, and played back by any form of audio equipment is altering the signal as it was originally intended. The goal of a high fidelity stereo system is to do as little additional damage to that recorded signal as possible. Therefore, everything in the signal path is critically important to faithfully reproducing the sound.

EVERYTHING matters, and some gear just don't work well together for that purpose, while others do. Some cables work exceptionally well and others don't. The critical factor in how well a system works as a whole is determined by the listener. I have heard setups, that to my ears, sounded like Yoko Ono strangling a cat, while the owner of that system says it is his greatest achievement in sound reproduction.

Excellent sound is in the ears of the individual listening.

Again K_M, I am not in any way trying to diminish your prodigious experience or the insightful gifts you bring to the forum. Instead I would suggest that you perhaps consider the concept that others may have a considerable amount of experience in these areas, and sometimes deferring to those with more experience could be a great benefit to your learning and understanding as well.

tonyb · January 2019

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

Neutral passes the signal with no degradation.
A cable can not add anything nor better the signal being sent through it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Ad-speak from a cable company...not reality.

Wow...........just Wow! Listen to silver cable and copper cable and tell me they sound the same.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know. And some will never take the time or have an open mind to know.

H9

I never insinuated silver and copper cables sound the same.

I said the definition of neutral is to pass a signal unaltered.
If the signal is changed, it is not neutral.

It is very easy to know what is neutral or not....Quite easy.
FYI an unaltered signal absolutely is possible.

And it is quite easy to determine what is altered or not altered.
I can go more into detail, of you would like, but only if you have an open mind and want to understand.

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

K_M · January 2019

tonyb wrote: »

If that were the case, how do you know if a cable is passing the signal "unaltered", if you don't know what it's suppose to sound like in the first place ? You have to have a frame of reference to determine that.

First off, cables do not have sound.
They pass an alternating current signal.
You can not "listen" to a cable, it simply passes an electrical signal.

An ideal or perfect cable would be "no cable", as that would impart no change to the signal.
Nothing would be removed or altered if there was no cable at all.
With that being your theoretical ideal or goal, it then is quite easy to compare a signal to that standard.

Since a cable is totally passive, and can only either pass the signal fully intact, OR, slightly degrade the signal,(usually high frequencies) one can compare the amount of degradation, to the theoretical ideal of no cable.

In other words, what is put into one end, should ideally be exactly what is present at the other end.
I am willing to bet if you took 2 measurements one at the end of a speaker cable, and one at the beginning (in theory the no cable at all end) and inverted one signal, if they are exactly the same, (but opposite) the differences would cancel each other out and result in a "flat line".

If there was degradation (even minimal) then the inverted signals would not cancel each other out, and the result would be the difference signal, between the ideal of no cable at all, and the effect the actual cable imparts on the signal.

How to determine if a cable is neutral.

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