Amplifier static click/pop through speaker when turning on & off

mhardy6647

A big bag o' clipleads would have made a great stocking stuffer...




Note that the ones shown above include a small value air-core inductor at no additional cost.

Clipdat

Tony M wrote: »

It's in my sentence at the end.

Your pops seem to happen after a while of playing a CD. Static build up somehow...that's what I was thinking of. Just like a TT can develop it.

Your rack is metal isn't it?

Have you read the ads for static brushes for TTs that ground to your rack or plate screws on an outlet? I would think you have by now.

I'm just trying to figure out why you have this problem and giving a possible solution.

I see what you mean now. So, I was describing the noises as "static pops" because that description most accurately fit what I was hearing. However, I'm unsure if the noises are actually being caused by a buildup of static electricity.

In general terms, I've never experienced an issue with static electricity in my place like I have in some homes. My parent's house is especially bad in the winter, when you can sometimes see the electricity arc from your finger to what you are about to touch, like a metal doorknob.

I hooked the Ampino preamp up to a different power amp tonight and played three CDs without any pop noises at all.

The highly intermittent nature of this problem makes it very tedious and difficult to troubleshoot.

Tony M

I don't know if it's static elec. either.

What you have going on there is a true gremlin. It comes at very different times with different things.

Now the amps seem to be the reason it happened but I thought the amps were confirmed to be ok before. I also HATE electrical issues.

I hope you find the culprit soon or it leaves your system for good.

Clipdat

I've been using the Ampino Preamp hooked up to a Bryston ST 3B for the last several weeks, and I've experienced no static pops whatsoever. Everything has been sounding fantastic, and the Bryston seems to have great synergy with the 703s.

Perhaps the Bryston has some sort of "protection" in it to prevent "stray DC" from manifesting as unwanted static pops? Whereas the Ampino monoblocks have no "protection circuitry" or something of that nature? I'm honestly not sure.

It's slightly disconcerting that the issue seems to present itself when using the three pieces as a set, as they are intended. However, it's very possible they would work flawlessly in someone else's setup.

Tony M

Sorry to hear the gremlins left your stereo system when you separated the Dayens. That's crazy. Dayens won't like that.

I'm shaking my head in disgust that you can't use the Dayens as a set anymore.

I hope you get a solution of some kind now that you have determined it's the 3 pieces together that cause those problems.

Tony M

I'll bet you're antsy about picking up those beautiful PMCs after work!

I would be!

joecoulson

No joke right?^^

But maybe someone else would benefit from the Dayens as a set and you could get a killer pre to go with your new reference system.
Ruby/??/Bryston/PMC
Ahhhhh

Clipdat

I already have a killer Backert pre, I could spend the money on worthwhile upgrades like cable risers and shakti stones.

mhardy6647

"pop" protection is generally a capacitor -- maybe an RC or LRC network.

Clipdat

mhardy6647 wrote: »

"pop" protection is generally a capacitor -- maybe an RC or LRC network.

Well according to Dayens, "Our Monos have input capacitors (they are capacitor coupled) so if there is any DC coming from the preamp (which would be there from the source) it will be filtered in the input stage of the amp."

mhardy6647

Yup -- there are, shall we say, conflicting opinions about whether capacitors (in the signal path) are a good thing or a bad thing. Certainly in the 1970s, capacitors were "out", and so-called DC (direct coupled -- not direct current) components were all the range.

The problem with direct coupled components, of course, is that they're direct coupled. For example, if one has a source component with a little DC offset, a direct-coupled amplifier can dutifully pass and, in many cases, even amplify that DC... right along to one's loudspeakers. A good does of high-ish voltage DC can cook a loudspeaker driver (usually woofer) voice coil pretty quicly. This can be rather a bigger deal than a pop or click.

As a vacuum tube guy, I am more or less* stuck with capacitors (or transformers) between stages to block plate DC voltage I'm OK with that.

Fortunately, most vacuum tube components couple their power amplifier stages to loudspeakers using transformers. DC cannot pass through a transformer (although an autofomer can pass DC).

__________________
* It is possible to make direct coupled vacuum tube circuitry; is it worth the effort? Opinions and experiences differ.

Here's a DC vacuum tube design, e.g.
http://www.oocities.org/TimesSquare/1965/darling.html

Clipdat

Well, we originally thought that the issue was being caused by the always-on phono preamp that was connected to the Ampino Preamp. But now, the issue seems to be related to the three pieces working as a set.

I'm not sure where to go from here other than abstaining from using the three as a set.

mhardy6647

That is the best solution.

Like the old Henny Youngman routine.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." (patient flaps his wrist)
Doctor: "Don't do that."

This is probably part of the reason that medical care was much less expensive in those days.

Clipdat

Anyone wanna buy a Dayens Ampino Preamp and Monoblocks combo? Mint condition. I'll sell them for a nice price.

joecoulson

I’m sorry but I would get that warranty claim done. You already started the complaint before the warranty expiration so they should honor it. Let’s see what Verty says about that?

Clipdat

I'm not sure that there's anything finite enough to make an actual "warranty claim", but I've reached out to Zoran at Dayens to discuss next steps.

Perhaps sending all three pieces back to Verty, having them make the preamp capacitor coupled, and then all three units getting a clean bill of health and sent back would be the best option at this point.

Tony M

I'm the 667th view.

I had to change that number I saw on the main page of "recent discussions".

Clipdat

It's been a few days and still no response from Dayens unfortunately.

joecoulson

Wow. That’s not good.
Any other recourse with the dealer Verty?

Tony M

Is there a holiday where they're made?

Clipdat

joecoulson wrote: »

Wow. That’s not good.
Any other recourse with the dealer Verty?

I will give them a few more days and then re-send the email and copy Verty.

Clipdat

They eventually replied and agreed to let me send in the preamp and amps for servicing.

Clipdat

I shipped the monoblocks and the preamp back from CA to NY, insured via FedEx Ground to the tune of $102.70. They were received on 2/4.

On 2/5 the testing began and no issues were noted.

On 2/6 Verty Audio asked for additional details regarding the symptoms, most of which had already been answered/addressed in the below quoted email string. I re-answered the questions anyway and provided a detailed description.

The same day, they replied and stated: "Still nothing
Listening measuring
All clean so far
Is it possible that your cable was loose in either monoblock input or preamp’s input/output

That would cause these exact symptoms"

I interpreted "your cable" as my RCA interconnect cables being somehow at fault or responsible. Slightly perplexed, I replied: "Cables and connections were checked several times. I also unhooked and rehooked the amps and pre several times as I was trying to troubleshoot. So, not a loose connection."

Response: "I was more thinking of jack in the unit being loose or just wider (center live contact). But, anyway- we’ll keep testing."

So after stating it wasn't my cables, apparently they actually "meant" the "internal cable" in the jack? Not really sure I follow, as I believe these RCA ins/outs are of the plastic bracket surface mount variety, not the kind that use small lengths of wire.

On 2/9 Verty Audio stated "Looks like we got something though.
I left the system running and monitored the output for that period (30hours).
There were a few (less than 10) instances were the scope was triggered by some noise. Nothing too high, but it did happen.
Dayens already sent me the filter caps they discussed with you. I will now look inside to see if there’s anything that needs fixing in there."

The same day: "I think I found the problem!!!!
The issue appears to be intermittent line voltage supply due to damage of the fuse folder. I’ve never seen this on unit unless it was abused (this one was not). Maybe Dayens can comment.
See pic below."


(This is inside the "right" monoblock, the one I was originally reporting as having the static pops.)

Zoran from Dayens replied: "I'm glad to know that you've found the culprit.

Really awkward and strange issue.
We had non so far and hopefully this is the last one.

Congrats,
Zoran"

So the right monoblock amplifier was defective and had internal damage.

That message from Zoran the last I have heard since 2/9. I waited a few days and the situation has not sat well with me.

Let's look back at some of the earlier email exchanges where it was implied repeatedly that the issue was something with my system or the components connected to the preamp. Along with several mentions of how great and well-built Dayens products are.

(Emphasis added by me.)
"Amp can not produce static on their own. In this situation they are still fed through preamp with the input which is in this case phono preamp.
Phono preamps are very sensitive because they work with very small signals so maybe preamp caught up something from the air and that got into the amps."

"Our products are carefully designed and built using reliable parts and are built to last.
There is rarely need for any kind of service or repair.
We occasionally receive some old integrated amps we made in 90s (my father, Dejan, registered Dayens in 1991) and early 2000 for upgrade and they still work flawless."

"There are dozens of Ampino combo users and this is the only situation that random intermittent static pops occur.
Too bad that you are too far from us, we would gladly troubleshoot this on sight.
We have built literally thousand of amps and, during the past decade, we have shipped our products to almost 40 countries.
We have received only positive feedback on our products (and support)."


Please don't get me wrong, the intention of me posting my thoughts and feelings of displeasure about this situation is not because of any ill-will toward Dayens or Verty Audio, I have nothing against them on a personal level, hence why I tried to keep things as factual as possible so you can judge the experience for yourself.

However, what I take issue with is how a company responds in situations like this where there is a problem with their product. The universally expected and accepted behavior would have been for me to initiate an RMA, ship the equipment back, and then be shipped out brand new equipment. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly sure this is the way the majority of companies like Parasound, NAD, Cambridge Audio, PS Audio, etc. would operate.

I was an outspoken proponent of Dayens products, singing their praises on the forum whenever I could. Unfortunately this situation shows that as good as a company's product is, their post sale support, customer service, and willingness to do the right thing to keep a customer (and gain others) is the true measure of their product's value.

I've summed up my frustrations in an email response to Dayens and Verty that I sent earlier this evening:

"So where do we go from here? To be completely honest I've lost all of my confidence in the products and I no longer wish to have them in my system. I'm sorry, but that is just the way I feel.

It was really a headache for me trying to figure out what was causing the static pops in my system, and then being told it was something about my system or the components I had connected to the preamp.

Frankly, the suggestions and borderline insistence of it being not possible that it was a physical issue with the Dayens equipment was off putting and frustrating.

Most companies would have arranged for a full return and replacement of the affected products, shipping out brand new units after the defective ones were shipped back. This is the right way of treating, and keeping a customer.

It already cost me $102.70 to ship the equipment back from CA to NY. Now I'm guessing that I will be paying for return shipping and then once I have the units back, I'll be stuck with the burden of trying to sell them. Except I certainly will have a hard or impossible time doing that on my Polk Audio forum, where I once praised the sound quality of the Dayens products, and then also discussed the ongoing static popping issues I had with them and the associated headaches. Even if I say they were received back serviced and repaired, I doubt I will be able to get half of the $2,300 I paid for them."

joecoulson

Wow. I had never heard of Dayens until I joined this forum, but I’ll never forget the name now. Terrible CS and a pompous attitude towards their customers. Such a shame that they cannot see past that.
Thank You for posting so that others are aware.

Clipdat

Verty's response below. I wonder how much of this would have been volunteered had I not sent the email that I did. I guess I am getting the same gear sent back whether I like it or not, so the burden will be on me to move them along to a new owner at a huge loss.


"Hello Drew, really sorry to hear that you feel that way.
So, we’d like to clarify a few things, and in the process maybe improve the situation somewhat.
- We apologize for not talking to you sooner. We were simply waiting to complete the testing after the repair, before sending any further communications.
-Root cause: As you know, the monoblocks are packaged sideways. During shipping, the toroidal transformer shifted due to vibration and cracked the fuse holder, as it pressed on it against the side wall. You probably had a good connection until you rearranged your system, where the connection became intermittent. Keep in mind, unit still worked here for a while, and the fuse holder fell apart only after the removal of the cover.
-We will continue to test the unit, as well as improve the mechanical mounting of subassemblies in it. We will address the same potential issue in other two boxes.
-We now want to be absolutely sure that there was no other issues with the unit.
-Also, we wanted to one more time review with Dayens adding the filter caps that arrived from them yesterday.
-Verty Audio policy is that since your claim is clearly confirmed, you are entitled to a full refund of your shipping cost. This we will sent before the end of this week ($102.70).
please confirm your PayPal email account so we can send the refund.
-Obviously, we will ship the units back at no cost.
- Our (Verty) partner in Europe will be visiting Dayens in the next few days for periodical review and your case will definitely be on the agenda.
-This was a failure caused by packaging/manufacturing process imperfections that Dayens needs to address in the future, but for you -as stated above, we will address the issues in Verty Audio lab and make sure this kind of thing does not happen again.
- Your warranty expired in January, so we are happy to extend it for another year starting the day we ship it to you.
- Finally, let us know if there is anything else we can do for you.
Once again, we deeply apologize for the frustration and angst this issue caused. We are audiophiles too, we have been in your situation and we do feel your pain."

tratliff

Clipdat wrote: »

Verty's response below. I wonder how much of this would have been volunteered had I not sent the email that I did. I guess I am getting the same gear sent back whether I like it or not, so the burden will be on me to move them along to a new owner at a huge loss.


"Hello Drew, really sorry to hear that you feel that way.
So, we’d like to clarify a few things, and in the process maybe improve the situation somewhat.
- We apologize for not talking to you sooner. We were simply waiting to complete the testing after the repair, before sending any further communications.
-Root cause: As you know, the monoblocks are packaged sideways. During shipping, the toroidal transformer shifted due to vibration and cracked the fuse holder, as it pressed on it against the side wall. You probably had a good connection until you rearranged your system, where the connection became intermittent. Keep in mind, unit still worked here for a while, and the fuse holder fell apart only after the removal of the cover.
-We will continue to test the unit, as well as improve the mechanical mounting of subassemblies in it. We will address the same potential issue in other two boxes.
-We now want to be absolutely sure that there was no other issues with the unit.
-Also, we wanted to one more time review with Dayens adding the filter caps that arrived from them yesterday.
-Verty Audio policy is that since your claim is clearly confirmed, you are entitled to a full refund of your shipping cost. This we will sent before the end of this week ($102.70).
please confirm your PayPal email account so we can send the refund.
-Obviously, we will ship the units back at no cost.
- Our (Verty) partner in Europe will be visiting Dayens in the next few days for periodical review and your case will definitely be on the agenda.
-This was a failure caused by packaging/manufacturing process imperfections that Dayens needs to address in the future, but for you -as stated above, we will address the issues in Verty Audio lab and make sure this kind of thing does not happen again.
- Your warranty expired in January, so we are happy to extend it for another year starting the day we ship it to you.
- Finally, let us know if there is anything else we can do for you.
Once again, we deeply apologize for the frustration and angst this issue caused. We are audiophiles too, we have been in your situation and we do feel your pain."

Would be interested to see the email you sent to invoke this response.

Clipdat

tratliff wrote: »

Would be interested to see the email you sent to invoke this response.

Just scroll up a bit, it's quoted at the end of my long post, it starts with "So where do we go from here?"

tratliff

Clipdat wrote: »

Just scroll up a bit, it's quoted at the end of my long post, it starts with "So where do we go from here?"

Got it. Thanks. Was trying to track that down but just could not find it.

I'm sure it is frustrating but look on the bright side, it should be fixed now.

Clipdat

Verty also sent this email today:

"Hello Drew,
We have just one more thing- if none of this works for you, we are willing to accept your offer from a few days ago and buy it back from you at the price you suggested. ($1,200)
Of course, we would still cover the shipping cost ($102.70).

We don’t actually have a B-stock or refurbishment program, but we could use the unit for a demo, if needed some time in the future, if you really don’t want it anymore."

VR3

That last email... Lol