How can you listen to anything under 200 watt per chnl?
Answers
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They are capable of 400 watts of power pumping into them... That does not mean that they need 400 watts to operate.
My Missions, which are rated for 150 watts RMS, are powered by my Lafayette receiver. (22 watts per channel.) No issues and it sounds better on that than anything else I've tried them on. -
My speakers are oversensitive, so they need a safe place.
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Justinthomas1977 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »If one has loudspeakers with triple digit sensitivity (i.e., > 100 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter), it might be easy. Depends on the nature of the loudspeaker load, though (to wit, mostly the impedance curve).
3.5 watts per channel at my house using loudspeakers with ca. 100 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. No complaints.
DSC_9976 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Most consumer & "audiophile" loudspeakers today tend to have low sensitivities. For example 20 dB lower sensitivity would mean that one hundred times as much power is required to drive a loudspeaker to the same SPL output. Realistically, many loudspeakers today are. ca. 85 dB sensitivity; 3.5 watts into 100 dB speakers, in terms of sheer SPL, would equate to about 111 watts into 85 dB speakers.
Just a quick? If 102db sensitive speakers only need say 3 to 10 watts then why do they ask for 400rms each.. Or is the tube amps diff
OH Jeesh "face meet palm"
You have a A LOT of audio learning to do. -
What is the correct assumption then? I did try and simplify the numbers some to make my description clear but it is a close approximation. How far off am I?
There are too many variables involved to assume 0 is equal to a certain wattage. A more accurate method would use an SPL meter at one meter to determine where it is on the AVR volume scale that equals a certain wattage.I am glad you think you can hear a 0.5 DB increase but I will call BS. Especially if this is listening to music and not a pure test tone. Plus or minus 3 DB's is generally regarded as the level which MOST people can hear a change with a test tone. I know some peoples hearing is better and I am sure there are some 18 year olds that might be able to hear a 1 DB change (with a test tone). But you are not 18 anymore.
Everyone can try this for themselves. Close your eyes and start listening to music. Then have someone else turn the volume up and down 1 DB. You won't notice any change. Experiment how far they have to go till you can reliably hear a difference and report back.
I don't think, I know because I have done it time and time again. Furthermore, you seem to be confusing the ability to hear age related higher frequencies with the ability to hear changes in volume levels, which is most definitely not age related.The power ratio between an 80 and a 100 watt amp is 1.25x. Coincidentally a 1.26 increase in power gets you 1 DB more sound. So I guess your ears are so sensitive you can not only hear the difference but you also consider it a louder amp?
The reality could easily be that the 80wpc amp is louder than the 100wpc amp due to the amount of gain.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
motorstereo wrote: »I am glad you think you can hear a 0.5 DB increase but I will call BS. Especially if this is listening to music and not a pure test tone. Plus or minus 3 DB's is generally regarded as the level which MOST people can hear a change with a test tone. I know some peoples hearing is better and I am sure there are some 18 year olds that might be able to hear a 1 DB change (with a test tone). But you are not 18 anymore.
Count me in as being able to hear .5 db increases. My Mcintosh C100's volume control is calibrated in .5 db steps and a .5db change up or down is quite noticeable even to these 62 year old ears. 3db would be 6 steps on the volume control and that is a huge change in the sound. I'm betting there's not a single member here that can't easily hear either of those changes.
Impossible for the .5dB attenuation steps on the volume control to actually relate to a "real" increase/decrease of .5dB. That .5dB has to be measured from a single point in the room and depending on how the amp interacts with said pre-amp and the efficiency of the set of speakers, there is no way to pre-determine a .5dB attenuation with a linear "knob". It's simply a numerical reference, nothing more. It has zero to do with an actual increase/decrease of .5dB.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Example, put your ear to the speaker and move the vol one step, you will clearly hear an increase.
Stand back from the speakers 10 feet, have someone move the vol one step, bet you don't hear it. So even though the vol read out says .5dB it has no relevance since too many other variables are in play. Variables like source material, speaker efficiency, room characteristics, cable interaction, amp/pre-amp/source interaction, etc, etc.
All those dB readouts do is take a non-linear function and approximate it to a linear readout for consistency.
Point being that the read-out still states .5dB, yet in both scenario's you get a different result."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.
Perhaps, but without a reference, it means nothing really. It's a way of assigning a linear number to a non-linear function. There will be a certain set of circumstances it will be correct, unless you define that point, it's just an approximation. And you see, now people think they can hear a .5dB change in sound because of it. When in reality that's almost impossible to do unless you are very close to the speakers. I know I don't listen with my ears up to the speakers.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Justinthomas1977 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »If one has loudspeakers with triple digit sensitivity (i.e., > 100 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter), it might be easy. Depends on the nature of the loudspeaker load, though (to wit, mostly the impedance curve).
3.5 watts per channel at my house using loudspeakers with ca. 100 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. No complaints.DSC_9976 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Most consumer & "audiophile" loudspeakers today tend to have low sensitivities. For example 20 dB lower sensitivity would mean that one hundred times as much power is required to drive a loudspeaker to the same SPL output. Realistically, many loudspeakers today are. ca. 85 dB sensitivity; 3.5 watts into 100 dB speakers, in terms of sheer SPL, would equate to about 111 watts into 85 dB speakers.
Just a quick? If 102db sensitive speakers only need say 3 to 10 watts then why do they ask for 400rms each.. Or is the tube amps diff
Those old Altecs would emit fairly large puffs of smoke if fed 400 watts... but then again 25 watts continuous could probably be used to loosen plaster.
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Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.
H9
Thus do some of us use inductive volume controls (autoformer (or transformer) as opposed to resistive attenuators.
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html -
On topic -- no doubt some folks can hear 1 dB or less differences.
I can in the context of a deliberate, controlled change, but AFAIK I cannot hear, e.g., a 1 dB (or less) difference in RIAA EQ curves between two phono preamps.
Folks who can hear 0.5 dB differences, I think, have to spend way more than I do on hifis.
By the way, while I absolutely do not disagree with the importance of the reference point for dB measurements, an increment of a decibel (deci Bel = 0.1 Bel, named after Alexander Graham Bell, the telephone guy) is meaningful in the contexts of, e.g., AC voltages, independent of references. The issues of nonlinearity and inaccuracy are a different matter. We use logarithmic units (Bels... or decibels) as a practical convenience to compress the phenomenal dynamic range covered by our own auditory processing systems.
120 dB = 12 orders of magnitude dynamic range from the threshold of sound to the limit of pain/auditory system saturation.
Nature is pretty amazing stuff (which is why I am a biologist, of course!).
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If I'm not mistaken, .5 db is roughly 16% louder, 1db is roughly 33% louder.. that's somewhat of a large percentage even though its expressed in a small decimal.
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Stopped looking at wattage ratings years ago and stuck to current ratings for general guidance- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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motorstereo wrote: »I'm betting there's not a single member here that can't easily hear either of those changes.
What? Pugs can't raise their paws that high? Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
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Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!
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OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!
No you're not... -
mhardy6647 wrote: »On topic -- no doubt some folks can hear 1 dB or less differences.
120 dB = 12 orders of magnitude dynamic range from the threshold of sound to the limit of pain/auditory system saturation.
Nature is pretty amazing stuff (which is why I am a biologist, of course!).
The range of our hearing is unbelievably amazing and hard to comprehend. It is even harder to the comprehend the log DB scale and how much power it takes for an amp to imitate that sound. So getting back on track and to put things in perspective.
Assume you have a 90 db efficiency speaker..............
To listen at 80 DBs you will need 0.1 watt amp power
To listen at 90 DBs you will need 1 watt amp power (this is the definition of efficiency)
To listen at 100 DBs you will need 10 watt amp power
To listen at 110 DBs you will need 100 watt amp power
To listen at 120 DBs you will need 1000 watt amp power
To keep things civil here I will concede some people can hear a 1-3dB change if the test is done right. But if you are listening to music and your friend says "Turn it up just a little" you will undoubtedly turn it up more than 3DBs (If you turn it up just 1 DB they will likely give you a funny look).
My point is a 3 DB difference a very subtle barely relevant change while listening but just doing that doubles the power you need. So if you feel your 100 watt amp is not "loud" enough going to a 200 watt amp will just add 3DBs (Just a little) to your max volume.
A 200 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 100 watt one. In fact it is barely audible. And who ever listens to their system turned up all of the way?
Still stereo companies love to hype their power ratings. -
You can get that sort of precision from digitally controlled and stepped attenuators.Impossible for the .5dB attenuation steps on the volume control to actually relate to a "real" increase/decrease of .5dB.
H9
Variable pots can be wretched little devices but in a system context speaker drivers and gain devices (ie.tubes,transistors) contribute substantially more in the way of distortion.Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.
H9 -
I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.
Are you one of the admins on Audiokarma? I got permanently banned from there can you get me back lol -
...wonder why
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You're right...I'm going to go pout in the corner like a little beotch! -
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stumbled across this ol' sticky @ AK (looking for something else):
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/amplifier-sensitivity-decibels-and-you.58829/If I'm not mistaken, .5 db is roughly 16% louder, 1db is roughly 33% louder.. that's somewhat of a large percentage even though its expressed in a small decimal.
and 10 dB = twice as loud; 20 dB = four times as loud... but even those comparisons are difficult to "hear" in a real world setting.
The figures of merit in terms of amplifiers, I would say, are these (which we've all talked around in previous posts).
10 dB more output takes 10 times as much power (one order of magnitude)
20 dB more output takes 100 times as much power (two orders of magnitude)
etc.
Just think of the decibel as what it is, a tenth of an exponential quantity of 'intensity' called the Bel Drop the zero and it's like high school math.
10^1 = 10 (10 dB)
10^2 = 100 (20 dB)
10^3 = 1000 (30 dB)
1/10 = -10 dB
1/100 = -20 dB
1/1000 = -30 dB
etc.
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OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!
We have special skills, and if you leave, we will find you....and steal all your audio gear. HT SYSTEM-
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heh, we could start talking about phase angles and power factors...
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mhardy6647 wrote: »heh, we could start talking about phase angles and power factors...
Doc, relax, have some more coffee pal. Too early to start using my brain. It has set hours of operation ya know. HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
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B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Isn’t a loudspeaker’s efficiency measured at a given frequency 1khz @1w and 1 meter?
Wouldn’t much more power be used to produce another more demanding frequency at the same level and further away?Post edited by jeremymarcinko onOh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant -
jeremymarcinko wrote: »Isn’t a loudspeaker’s efficiency measured at a given frequency 1khz @1w and 1 meter.
Wouldn’t much more power be used to produce another more demanding frequency at the same level and further away?
Yes to both. Simply put, it's just a unit of measure much like ounces of liquid in a measuring cup.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
jeremymarcinko wrote: »Isn’t a loudspeaker’s efficiency measured at a given frequency 1khz @1w and 1 meter.
Wouldn’t much more power be used to produce another more demanding frequency at the same level and further away?
It varies, and the test standards are, IME, seldom specified.
To be meainingful, it should be based on a broadband signal (e.g., pink noise) -- but then the acoustic environment can have a big impact, too.
I usually just use a Radio Shack SPL meter & a tape measure
... or believe the published spec. When we're dealing with (vintage) JBL & Altec, the specs are generally pretty reliable -- and the conditions are usually spelled out pretty clearly (e.g., power handling).
In an anechoic space, SPL decreases by 3 dB per doubling of distance.
A stereo pair of loudspeakers increases SPL by 3 dB relative to a single loudspeaker.
Here's a good (reproducible) set of specs for a good (one of the best ones ever) woofer, e.g.,
Look at the sensitivity spec:
and the definition thereof:
Freefield at 4 feet (a teeny-weeny bit more than 1 meter) with pink noise (bandwidth limited -- heck, it is a woofer).
