Turning normal speakers into SDA’s
Comments
-
ken brydson wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: »KennethSwauger wrote: »I applaud your willingness to experiment in the face of such woeful opinions. As a first step you might try removing your left and right speaker wires from your amp. Then take a single speaker (doesn't matter what kind of speaker, really) then connect a wire to your left positive terminal on your amp and a second wire to the right positive terminal on your amp. Then connect these two wires to your speaker, it doesn't matter which wire is connected to positive or negative. Now play some music and you'll hear the difference information coming from that speaker. It should sound like music coming from a distant location in your room.
@KennethSwauger , just making sure, you connect the positive terminals to two pieces of wire, then connect those wires to the positive and negative connectors on your speakers?
You forgot putting the positives on your tongue and standing in a bucket of water...
I do that first thing in the morning. Better than coffee! -
ken brydson wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: »KennethSwauger wrote: »I applaud your willingness to experiment in the face of such woeful opinions. As a first step you might try removing your left and right speaker wires from your amp. Then take a single speaker (doesn't matter what kind of speaker, really) then connect a wire to your left positive terminal on your amp and a second wire to the right positive terminal on your amp. Then connect these two wires to your speaker, it doesn't matter which wire is connected to positive or negative. Now play some music and you'll hear the difference information coming from that speaker. It should sound like music coming from a distant location in your room.
@KennethSwauger , just making sure, you connect the positive terminals to two pieces of wire, then connect those wires to the positive and negative connectors on your speakers?
You forgot putting the positives on your tongue and standing in a bucket of water...
I do that first thing in the morning. Better than coffee!
Years ago, the alumni magazine my alma mater* held a contest for the best aphorism.
The winning aphorism was:If you eat a live toad for breakfast, nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day,
Words to live by.
________________________
* Which is also Mr. Polk's alma mater. Coincidence?
-
Just set your SDA-CRSs up correctly.
They're all you need in that room. If you had a HUUUGE room, I could see your project being a fun experiment on the cheap.
My CRSs can fill my 18'x21' w/16' ceiling with plenty of sound!Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
My CRSs can fill my 18'x21' w/16' ceiling with plenty of sound!
Yeah, but most of that volume is filled with more speakers...
-
Just set your SDA-CRSs up correctly.
They're all you need in that room. If you had a HUUUGE room, I could see your project being a fun experiment on the cheap.
My CRSs can fill my 18'x21' w/16' ceiling with plenty of sound!
I just want to experiment, to see how it turns out. I suspect that it won’t work, and that I’ll immediately take it apart, but if it works, then I’ll keep it set up like that, at least for a little while.
We never made it to the HobbyTown to get the resistors, hopefully we can run by tomorrow morning. -
Don’t know why, but I was reminded of a picture that was posted in my amp build thread...
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
It's people like you that are doers and make many accomplishments in life from your attitude alone. Thinking outside the box will take you many places.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
-
Trying to crudely recreate something that has been done really well in the past, is not "thinking outside the box". Had to get that straight.
Op, have fun
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Trying to crudely recreate something that has been done really well in the past, is not "thinking outside the box". Had to get that straight.
Op, have fun
H9
Doing it without an SDA crossover is thinking outside the box. Kudos to Ken for the new box.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
Nothing wrong with experimenting and I don't see why you would need to modify your main speakers. For your first attempt just get two cheaper bookshelf speakers and place them next to your main speakers. You will need to open the bookshelf speakers up and figure out how to connect the interconnect cable instead of the one negative terminal in each speaker. But that would just be jumping a couple wires (easier said than done you would need to study the schematic closely). Then plug your bookshelves to the positives on the main speakers next to it. "Instant" SDA!........YMMV!
Cons I can think of........(and I am sure there are more)
You will have to be careful with the impedance. By adding another speaker you will lower it. (and if you smoke your amp remember you got this advice for free on the internet).
The bookshelfs might not have the same crossover points and I am not sure how much of a difference that will make.
Getting the phase of the dimensional drivers might be difficult unless you totally understand how the interconnect should be wired.
Pros.
You just have to open up the bookshelfs and resolder a few wires to the new interconnect wire. Forget the interconnect plug while you are experimenting just hard wire it. If it doesn't work just switch it back.
You can do this in an afternoon (or less).
It would be interesting to see how positioning the dimensional array effects the SDA effect. Who knows seating them away from the main speakers might even improve it. -
Right.......And putting a Camaro air filter in a Chevette makes it a Camaro.
.
Let's not even consider this experiment is anything close to a true SDA speaker. Fun to mess around with, but falls far from being an SDA. It has the very crude beginnings of the idea of cross talk cancellation, but hardly equates to having an SDA speaker.
Again, all for the fun aspect of it, but let's not get carried away........making assumptions this is revelatory thing or start calling it SDA.
H9
Post edited by heiney9 on"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
All that comes in that "new box" Ken graciously provided is a way to destroy your speakers and amp if you aren't VERY careful. As an employee of Polk Audio, he may also have exposed them to some risk of having to pay for damaged components/speakers if the OP gets it wrong, or there are variances in equipment that Ken knows nothing about. It was a well intended, but ill-advised gesture IMHO.Doing it without an SDA crossover is thinking outside the box. Kudos to Ken for the new box.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Sorry John, but this isn't about Ken's suggestion. I think the OP knows everything he does is at his own risk.
You make a few valid points, but in no way should Ken or Polk be held responsible for experimenting.
Just my .o2c
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I agree that Ken shouldn't be held responsible, but in today's overly litigious society, an argument could be made... companies usually refrain from making such suggestions that deviate from intended use for that very reason. As an agent of the company, Ken has opened that box here and though I doubt anything bad will happen because of it in THIS case, there is still that risk that someone else reading this thread at a later date will try it and do something stupid.
Had it happen at work when a service tech or advisor told a customer he could swap pulleys on his Hellcat for more boost. a couple months later the car needed a new engine and the factory told him to pound sand. The guy sued and we ended up eating a 20k motor.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Brock is a big meanie.
-
I wish you guys would relax and chalk this up to experimentation. The best way to learn is discovery and this seems ripe with opportunity. It is one thing when its a middle-aged man trying to 'best' the SDA's. It's another when its a high school kid where there is educational value.
Totally agree. I support him trying whatever, as long as it's safe for him and his gear. And, BTW, failure and mistakes are great ways to learn! Good luck, Micah.
-
Thanks for the tips! I’ll certainly put them to good useNothing wrong with experimenting and I don't see why you would need to modify your main speakers. For your first attempt just get two cheaper bookshelf speakers and place them next to your main speakers. You will need to open the bookshelf speakers up and figure out how to connect the interconnect cable instead of the one negative terminal in each speaker. But that would just be jumping a couple wires (easier said than done you would need to study the schematic closely). Then plug your bookshelves to the positives on the main speakers next to it. "Instant" SDA!........YMMV!
Cons I can think of........(and I am sure there are more)
You will have to be careful with the impedance. By adding another speaker you will lower it. (and if you smoke your amp remember you got this advice for free on the internet).
The bookshelfs might not have the same crossover points and I am not sure how much of a difference that will make.
Getting the phase of the dimensional drivers might be difficult unless you totally understand how the interconnect should be wired.
Pros.
You just have to open up the bookshelfs and resolder a few wires to the new interconnect wire. Forget the interconnect plug while you are experimenting just hard wire it. If it doesn't work just switch it back.
You can do this in an afternoon (or less).
It would be interesting to see how positioning the dimensional array effects the SDA effect. Who knows seating them away from the main speakers might even improve it.
I called it SDA because I’m trying to do a similar effect. Yes, I realize that these are not SDA’s, and I realized from the very beginning that it would probably not work very well.
Right.......And putting a Camaro air filter in a Chevette makes it a Camaro. .
Let's not even consider this experiment is anything close to a true SDA speaker. Fun to mess around with, but falls far from being an SDA. It has the very crude beginnings of the idea of cross talk cancellation, but hardly equates to having an SDA speaker.
Again, all for the fun aspect of it, but let's not get carried away........making assumptions this is revelatory thing or start calling it SDA.
H9
I’m not the person who would have Polk pay for my mistake because the method I used was suggested by one of their members. I understand that everything that I do wrong is 100% my fault, and that I can’t put the blame on Ken or Polk.nooshinjohn wrote: »
All that comes in that "new box" Ken graciously provided is a way to destroy your speakers and amp if you aren't VERY careful. As an employee of Polk Audio, he may also have exposed them to some risk of having to pay for damaged components/speakers if the OP gets it wrong, or there are variances in equipment that Ken knows nothing about. It was a well intended, but ill-advised gesture IMHO.Doing it without an SDA crossover is thinking outside the box. Kudos to Ken for the new box.mdaudioguy wrote: »I wish you guys would relax and chalk this up to experimentation. The best way to learn is discovery and this seems ripe with opportunity. It is one thing when its a middle-aged man trying to 'best' the SDA's. It's another when its a high school kid where there is educational value.
Totally agree. I support him trying whatever, as long as it's safe for him and his gear. And, BTW, failure and mistakes are great ways to learn! Good luck, Micah.
I’ve learned through many failures in the past what you should and shouldn’t do, with everything. The one that always sticks out in my brain is to remember to use the back brakes on your bike, not the front brakes.
I plan on using easy to drive and fairly inexpensive speakers for this test, so that if I have any issues, I’m out an amp and two inexpensive speakers. Seems like the best idea, especially when I can’t afford to fix or replace the LSi’s or Missions.
We never made it to HobbyTown today either, and we aren’t my gonna go tonight, so hopefully we can go tomorrow.
Thanks for all the suggestions! -
mlistens03 wrote: »I called it SDA because I’m trying to do a similar effect. Yes, I realize that these are not SDA’s, and I realized from the very beginning that it would probably not work very well.
I didn't get the impression you were trying to equal polks engineering on the SDA's and have it sound the same or even better. The way I took your question was can you add some SDA effect to regular speakers. I think the answer is yes.
So.........The way I see it.
Will you match the classic Polk sound of an SDA exactly?...........No.
Will you hear a difference?..............Yes.
Will you like it?...................Maybe (to probably with some tweaks). You might have to lessen the volume of the dimensional speakers by adding a some resistors or turning down the volume on an active setup.
Is it worth your time to try?.............Absolutely, if you like to experiment and tinker.
I think most of us have spent hours trying to tweak their system (interconnects, speaker wire, different components etc) only to find out it didn't work. What you are doing is no different. And keep us posted!
-
mlistens03 wrote: »I called it SDA because I’m trying to do a similar effect. Yes, I realize that these are not SDA’s, and I realized from the very beginning that it would probably not work very well.
I didn't get the impression you were trying to equal polks engineering on the SDA's and have it sound the same or even better. The way I took your question was can you add some SDA effect to regular speakers. I think the answer is yes.
So.........The way I see it.
Will you match the classic Polk sound of an SDA exactly?...........No.
Will you hear a difference?..............Yes.
Will you like it?...................Maybe (to probably with some tweaks). You might have to lessen the volume of the dimensional speakers by adding a some resistors or turning down the volume on an active setup.
Is it worth your time to try?.............Absolutely, if you like to experiment and tinker.
I think most of us have spent hours trying to tweak their system (interconnects, speaker wire, different components etc) only to find out it didn't work. What you are doing is no different. And keep us posted!
My reply was direct towards H9, he was suggesting that it wasn’t SDA, which, it isn’t. It will be my best attempt so far at replicating what the SDA’s (it is my first attempt, so definitely the best).
H9, I don’t expect to top real SDA’s. I have a pair of CRS’s and I’ve heard what they can do. It’s astounding. I want just a taste of that with a different set of speakers. -
I’ll use some of my old Monoprice cables, I have a soldering iron and plenty of shrink wrap, so I have no worries about that part. Thanks very much for the suggestion, if this works out really well as I decide to keep it set up I’ll definitely grab one of those. Post edited by [Deleted User] on -
mlistens03 wrote: »Stupid question, I know. I thought about this earlier today. Basically, what is to keep me from getting a set of LSi 7’s, and somehow attach them to the side of the LSi’s, or set them on top, and then design some sort of something to do exactly what the old SDA crossovers did? And, what’s to keep me from doing this to any speaker? I could have the first (and possibly last) pair of LSDA 25 speakers
Hmmm.....it seems to me my comments were on point and now you're back peddling. I highlighted where you stated you were wanting it to sound exactly like the SDA crossover.
My bad for actually having reading comprehension and not "guessing" what your goal was.
I'm out
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
mlistens03 wrote: »Stupid question, I know. I thought about this earlier today. Basically, what is to keep me from getting a set of LSi 7’s, and somehow attach them to the side of the LSi’s, or set them on top, and then design some sort of something to do exactly what the old SDA crossovers did? And, what’s to keep me from doing this to any speaker? I could have the first (and possibly last) pair of LSDA 25 speakers
Hmmm.....it seems to me my comments were on point and now you're back peddling. I highlighted where you stated you were wanting it to sound exactly like the SDA crossover.
My bad for actually having reading comprehension and not "guessing" what your goal was.
I'm out
H9
Exactly what they did, as in do the same process and hopefully have the same results. Similar sound, basically just slightly improve sound stage. Sorry for not being clear, before or now.
Edit: well, I’d take vastly improving the sound stage too, but I’m shooting for slightly. -
Thanks for the offer, but it really isn’t necessary. I don’t want you to buy me something that’ll most likely be used once and then put in a closet for the rest of my life. Thanks very much for the offer!Post edited by [Deleted User] on -
Right.......And putting a Camaro air filter in a Chevette makes it a Camaro. .
Let's not even consider this experiment is anything close to a true SDA speaker. Fun to mess around with, but falls far from being an SDA. It has the very crude beginnings of the idea of cross talk cancellation, but hardly equates to having an SDA speaker.
Again, all for the fun aspect of it, but let's not get carried away........making assumptions this is revelatory thing or start calling it SDA.
H9
Crosstalk cancellation is the crux of SDA. I've got a couple hybrids done using CRS+ crossovers and experimented heavily myself. I commend this guy for doing something different himself.
I recently had the privilege of helping convert a set of M10s to SDAs also and experimenting on driver swaps using all Polk drivers. Mini 2Bs is how I'd describe their sound.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
There used to be a Dynaco Quadaptor that was available as a kit that accomplished what you are considering via a passive device.
-
KennethSwauger wrote: »My intuition is that this could be something worthwhile and if a little patience is used in placing the "SDA" speakers it could be quite satisfying. If you didn't like it send it to me, I'd like to try it out. CP members help each other with projects all the time. People have sent me hard to find lubricants and answered lots of odd questions. In fact the Russound device could be sent to other members who are interested. It would be my pleasure to help a budding audio experimenter out.
Thanks again for the offer, but my dad doesn’t like that you guys share your gear with me, and I’m worried that if I asked him again he’d have me leave. $40 isn’t too much for me, either, I when the lawnmower is working again I’ll make $40 a week.
And, it looks to be a very simple circuit, I could probably replicate it here, I’d just need to read the values off the resistors and figure out how they are wired.
Thanks a lot for the offer, but I’d rather not have it than take a risk at having my dad pull me off the forum. -
Just remember. If you make or buy SDA speakers they MUST be connected to a common ground amp. If not you can fry your drivers and crossovers and maybe even damage your amp. Yes you can use a dreadnought but then everything gets more complicated and expensive
I never read this anywhere but I have often speculated that is why Polk dropped the SDA line (and no one else copied it). In the 80's most people buying SDA's were audiophiles with at least a little knowledge about stereos and they bought them from dedicated audio shops who knew something.
Trying to sell SDAs now in big box stores to the masses (with an 18 year old "sales accommodate" that knows nothing) is a recipe for disaster. -
Just remember. If you make or buy SDA speakers they MUST be connected to a common ground amp. If not you can fry your drivers and crossovers and maybe even damage your amp. Yes you can use a dreadnought but then everything gets more complicated and expensive
I never read this anywhere but I have often speculated that is why Polk dropped the SDA line (and no one else copied it). In the 80's most people buying SDA's were audiophiles with at least a little knowledge about stereos and they bought them from dedicated audio shops who knew something.
Trying to sell SDAs now in big box stores to the masses (with an 18 year old "sales accommodate" that knows nothing) is a recipe for disaster.
No worry there, I’ve checked all of my amps, all the amps that I own have very low resistances between the terminals, with the highest (my Crown) at 0.5 ohms. -
With my approach it would not be necessary to use a common ground amplifier either for the main amp or the "SDA" amp. The difference signal is being derived prior to amplification and unlike "normal" SDA the SDA level would be completely adjustable including volume and treble/bass response. The distance from the "SDA" and the regular speaker could be made dependent on the distance the listener is away from the speakers. If the listener is further away from the speakers the "SDA" could be slightly further away from the main speaker. This would help tune the quality and effectiveness of the result.
I can see some people preferring to have more separation from their "normal" speaker and the "SDA" speaker in order to create a somewhat wider sound stage. -
Exactly. Its' nothing mystical or magic. SDA's are simply a two way loudspeaker with some extra drivers strategically placed and wired to reproduce a difference signal. Think the old Halfer circuit but used at the front of the stage instead of as ambient rear surrounds.Crosstalk cancellation is the crux of SDA.
![[Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/83b82048d67877ca27bbc25d5d38f9d3_100.png)
