SRS SDA excursion difference?!?

drnodegree
drnodegree Posts: 7
edited August 2018 in Vintage Speakers
I was listening to some music at relatively high levels (just below polyswitch kick out ;o) ) and noticed that the Right channel had a different/odd excursion that was much more "intense" than the left channel. This is only obvious at HIGH volumes.

The amp is new , the pre-amp is new and the speakers are not under powered etc.
Amp: Emotiva XPA2 gen3 (300w/channel 8 ohms)
Pre: Marantz AV 8802a

My first thought was that the speaker was "out of phase" but I don't have the guts to switch the speaker leads to find out...Not knowing what would happen with the interconnect if I did so?!?
--> What would happen if I switched speaker lead?!?

It almost looks as though the speakers are "sucking in" instead of throwing out when you would expect them to be throwing out (if that makes sense).

Short Video attempting to capture the difference.

https://youtu.be/Pz5QRzRgIfU


My perception is the left channel also sounds better!.

Any thoughts on what this may be?
Post edited by [Deleted User] on
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Comments

  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
    Welcome to the forum @drnodegree I have no degree either, looks like we are off to a good start.

    It does seem like the phase may be reversed so my first question would be if you look on the back of the speakers the red nut on the speaker wire terminal is it on the left or right? Does it seems like ALL the drivers on the right speaker act the same, it did to me but you are a better judge.

    The only issue I have had with reversing polarity happened to be at the amp level and I blew a fuse in the amp (Interconnect was connected at the time). Not hard to replace, took me all of 10 minutes including the trip to home depot to pick them up.

    Nice speakers by the way! I have always wanted to hear a pair but I am pretty content with my upgraded 2Bs. Please do stick around and let me know how troubleshooting goes. We have a LOT of knowledgeable people here, i'm just a lowly peon in comparison but I will help as much as I can.
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

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  • Thanks codycatalist....yes there are a lot of peeps here with way more experience with these speakers than I have!
    Nothing is different or odd about the connections at the back of the speaker either....

    If you blew a fuse with the interconnect cable connected after switching leads...that's an acceptable fix...but I wouldn't want to risk any other damage!!! :#

    I will have to "experiment" some more this weekend!

    I don't get many opportunities to listen to it at the louder levels so I hadn't really noticed it before....
  • DaveHo
    DaveHo Posts: 3,515
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.
  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Imagine for some reason ALL the mid drivers are out of phase. On some 1.2s that would be chore to correct haha!
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

    "Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
    " I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
    "Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
    "Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
    "Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member
  • I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

  • michaeljhsda2
    michaeljhsda2 Posts: 2,182
    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.
    SDA SRS 2.3TL's
    Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
    Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
    SDA 2B TL's
  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.

    This^^^^^^^^
    On the original 2nd/3rd generation SRS reversed the binding posts.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
  • I put RDO194's in...

    it is a blade-blade interconnect.

    I will have to look at the positioning of the binding posts this weekend. I haven't done anything with the binding posts...they have been the same since factory, I think I was the first one to open these speakers up.


    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • I pulled one driver at a time and there is only one way to put them back on...no chance they weren't reconnected properly.

    The gaskets are special gasket tape <1/8" thick and punched holes for the screws. There is a chance it compressed since the screws were tightened down and perhaps it isn't air tight. I will check that this weekend....

    I hope that is all it is....some leaking air!!!

    F1nut wrote: »
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,411
    You should use something called Armacell

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Armacell-2-in-x-30-ft-R-1-Foam-Insulation-Tape-TAP18230/100539553

    This stuff has the compressibility to match or better the original gasket material, and is the recommended choice here for replacing the stuck gaskets if needed.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I pulled one driver at a time and there is only one way to put them back on...no chance they weren't reconnected properly.

    The gaskets are special gasket tape <1/8" thick and punched holes for the screws. There is a chance it compressed since the screws were tightened down and perhaps it isn't air tight. I will check that this weekend....

    I hope that is all it is....some leaking air!!!

    F1nut wrote: »
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.

    The fastons will fit either terminal, so it is possible to get them mixed up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    What is your source? If your using a turntable, it could be rumble. In my system, the rumble was only in the right channel, so that may be the case in yours as well.
  • gmcman
    gmcman Posts: 1,806
    edited August 2018
    In your video, you seem to focus the attention more on the right-side drivers of the right speaker, and also the right-side drivers of the left speaker.

    The right-side drivers of the right speaker are the dimensional drivers, and the right-side drivers of the left speaker are the stereo drivers.

    I'm not well versed in that particular SDA-SRS speaker but, correct me if I'm wrong, I assume they operate similarly where the dimensional drivers handle the bass below 150Hz?
    Edited to include: Also the out of phase signal for the opposite speaker, but I was focusing more on the bass signals.

    Maybe that's what you're seeing....but not discounting what others suggested in regards to polarity and leaks.
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    edited August 2018
    I agree with what others have said to check for air leaks first....but also.....

    What is your source? (it almost appears to be rumble or a warp, but not sure)
    Are your tone controls set to flat?
    Is the left speaker in a corner and the right not so close to a corner?
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    gmcman wrote: »
    In your video, you seem to focus the attention more on the right-side drivers of the right speaker, and also the right-side drivers of the left speaker.

    The right-side drivers of the right speaker are the dimensional drivers, and the right-side drivers of the left speaker are the stereo drivers.

    I'm not well versed in that particular SDA-SRS speaker but, correct me if I'm wrong, I assume they operate similarly where the dimensional drivers handle the bass below 150Hz?
    Edited to include: Also the out of phase signal for the opposite speaker, but I was focusing more on the bass signals.

    Maybe that's what you're seeing....but not discounting what others suggested in regards to polarity and leaks.

    If I play test tones on my pair, all the drivers move approximately the same amount, whether dimensional or the stereo drivers.

    Since it is low passed at about 150 hz, they all get approx, the same amount of bass signal.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue. By ear I couldn't hear much difference in the midrange.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    Having a lot of excursion is not a problem and may in fact be desired.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    xschop wrote: »
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue. By ear I couldn't hear much difference in the midrange.
    You cannot replace 6511s with 6502s. Their T/S parameters are vastly different.
    The midrange would not change, but deep bass would. You've de-tuned the cabinet.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    edited August 2018
    Yes, the trade-off was a few lower Hz for higher volume. In addition to looking like the 6511's were about to pop at high volume, the higher excursion of the 6511's did muddy the midrange as well. At moderate volume levels, I didn't hear a midrange difference, I should have added.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • gmcman
    gmcman Posts: 1,806
    xschop wrote: »
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue.

    Out of curiosity, was this on the original crossover?
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • gmcman
    gmcman Posts: 1,806
    xschop wrote: »
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.

    I don't have all the stats in front of me, perhaps others can chime in, but like westmassguy stated, you have changed the tune of the speaker. Those drivers are spec'd for that enclosure and that particular crossover. Did you factor in the possible, well-aged components of the crossover that are likely due for replacement, that are possibly contributing to your muddy midrange?

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Both sets of CRS+ crossovers were recapped. Pics of mine are here.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    xschop wrote: »
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.
    The 6503 is 8 ohm nominal, the 6502 is 4 ohm nominal. They are not even remotely close.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • gmcman
    gmcman Posts: 1,806
    xschop wrote: »
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.

    Can you explain "why" you would use a 4 ohm driver in place of an 8 ohm driver? I'm just trying to understand, because in my limited amount of expertise I can give, you could be changing the crossover network as much as a whole octave or more.

    That's substantial.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Because you swap in the CRS+ crossover?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 748
    gmcman wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.

    Can you explain "why" you would use a 4 ohm driver in place of an 8 ohm driver? I'm just trying to understand, because in my limited amount of expertise I can give, you could be changing the crossover network as much as a whole octave or more.

    That's substantial.

    Driver swaps based solely on Nominal Impedance are 6503/6510 (8 Ohm), 6502/6511 (4 Ohm).

    The M10 came with two 6503 drivers. The later pin/blade CRS+ models came with either a 6503 or 6510 and a 6511. To have the SDA work properly with the CRS+ crossover in an M10, now SDA-10 you also need to replace one of the 6503 drivers with the proper 4 Ohm 6511 driver, or 6502 in @xschop 's case.
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,629
    Seems we lost the O.P.