SRS SDA excursion difference?!?

drnodegreedrnodegree Posts: 6
edited August 24 in Vintage Speakers
I was listening to some music at relatively high levels (just below polyswitch kick out ;o) ) and noticed that the Right channel had a different/odd excursion that was much more "intense" than the left channel. This is only obvious at HIGH volumes.

The amp is new , the pre-amp is new and the speakers are not under powered etc.
Amp: Emotiva XPA2 gen3 (300w/channel 8 ohms)
Pre: Marantz AV 8802a

My first thought was that the speaker was "out of phase" but I don't have the guts to switch the speaker leads to find out...Not knowing what would happen with the interconnect if I did so?!?
--> What would happen if I switched speaker lead?!?

It almost looks as though the speakers are "sucking in" instead of throwing out when you would expect them to be throwing out (if that makes sense).

Short Video attempting to capture the difference.




My perception is the left channel also sounds better!.

Any thoughts on what this may be?
Post edited by KennethSwauger on
«1

Comments

  • codycatalistcodycatalist Posts: 1,729
    Welcome to the forum @drnodegree I have no degree either, looks like we are off to a good start.

    It does seem like the phase may be reversed so my first question would be if you look on the back of the speakers the red nut on the speaker wire terminal is it on the left or right? Does it seems like ALL the drivers on the right speaker act the same, it did to me but you are a better judge.

    The only issue I have had with reversing polarity happened to be at the amp level and I blew a fuse in the amp (Interconnect was connected at the time). Not hard to replace, took me all of 10 minutes including the trip to home depot to pick them up.

    Nice speakers by the way! I have always wanted to hear a pair but I am pretty content with my upgraded 2Bs. Please do stick around and let me know how troubleshooting goes. We have a LOT of knowledgeable people here, i'm just a lowly peon in comparison but I will help as much as I can.
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  • Thanks codycatalist....yes there are a lot of peeps here with way more experience with these speakers than I have!
    Nothing is different or odd about the connections at the back of the speaker either....

    If you blew a fuse with the interconnect cable connected after switching leads...that's an acceptable fix...but I wouldn't want to risk any other damage!!! :#

    I will have to "experiment" some more this weekend!

    I don't get many opportunities to listen to it at the louder levels so I hadn't really noticed it before....
  • DaveHoDaveHo Posts: 2,019
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.
  • codycatalistcodycatalist Posts: 1,729
    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Imagine for some reason ALL the mid drivers are out of phase. On some 1.2s that would be chore to correct haha!
    Living room

    Mains: Paradigm 90P
    Lows: Velodyne CHT12, Pioneer SW-8Mk2
    Power: Marantz SR7000
    Tv: Samsung UHD 55' Curved 4k

    2 Channel Den

    Mains: SDA2B Upgraded XOs and Binding Posts
    Pre: Denon PRA-1200
    Power: Adcom GFA-545
    TT: Pioneer PL510

    Noggin Rockin'

    Phillips L2
    Harman Kardon CL
    Little dot 1+/GE JAN 5654w

    Closet of Dreams:

    Polk RTA11TL
    New Large Advents 25th Anniversary Edition
    Bravo V2/RCA Clear top Conn branded 12AU7
    Yamaha AV-34

    "Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
    " I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
    "Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
    "Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
    "Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member
  • I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

  • michaeljhsda2michaeljhsda2 Posts: 1,861
    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.
    SDA SRS 1.2TL's w/ RD0198-1's, Sonicap, Mills
    AI-1 Dreadnought
    SDA 1C's w/Clarity Cap ESA; PA, Mills, RD0194-1's
    SDA 1C's stock
    SDA 2B TL's w/RD0198-1's
    SDA 2's (side by side tweeters) stock
    Yaqin MC-30L integrated tube amp
    Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,166
    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.

    This^^^^^^^^
    On the original 2nd/3rd generation SRS reversed the binding posts.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • I put RDO194's in...

    it is a blade-blade interconnect.

    I will have to look at the positioning of the binding posts this weekend. I haven't done anything with the binding posts...they have been the same since factory, I think I was the first one to open these speakers up.


    What tweeters do you have? RD0194's or RD0198's? Is the interconnect socket pin/blade or blade/blade? If it's blade/blade, the positive binding post nuts (red) should be on the right. If it's pin/blade, the positive should be on the left.

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,608
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • I pulled one driver at a time and there is only one way to put them back on...no chance they weren't reconnected properly.

    The gaskets are special gasket tape <1/8" thick and punched holes for the screws. There is a chance it compressed since the screws were tightened down and perhaps it isn't air tight. I will check that this weekend....

    I hope that is all it is....some leaking air!!!

    F1nut wrote: »
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.

  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 18,542
    You should use something called Armacell

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Armacell-2-in-x-30-ft-R-1-Foam-Insulation-Tape-TAP18230/100539553

    This stuff has the compressibility to match or better the original gasket material, and is the recommended choice here for replacing the stuck gaskets if needed.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with PS Audio NuWave Phono converter, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Stradivari v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X1 two channel preamplifier Signed by Poppa himself, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Krell Evolution 525a CD Player, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 Blu-ray , Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,608
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I pulled one driver at a time and there is only one way to put them back on...no chance they weren't reconnected properly.

    The gaskets are special gasket tape <1/8" thick and punched holes for the screws. There is a chance it compressed since the screws were tightened down and perhaps it isn't air tight. I will check that this weekend....

    I hope that is all it is....some leaking air!!!

    F1nut wrote: »
    drnodegree wrote: »
    I had just replaced the tweeters and put new seals on all the speakers as well as sound deadening on the baskets. It is possible that the seal has compressed slightly; I will check the seals and any "loose screws" this weekend!

    Thanks.


    DaveHo wrote: »
    With no music playing. if you push on the passive radiator, do the mid-woofers push out & stay out for the same amount of time on both speakers? Kind of looks like a leaky cabinet to me. If it passes that test, next up would be to pull each mid-woofer & make sure they are wired correctly.

    Why did you replace the gaskets and what did you use?

    Since you removed the drivers there's a possibility you didn't reconnect them properly.

    The fastons will fit either terminal, so it is possible to get them mixed up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • mlistens03mlistens03 Posts: 2,322
    What is your source? If your using a turntable, it could be rumble. In my system, the rumble was only in the right channel, so that may be the case in yours as well.
    Micah

    Main system: Technics SL3200, Shure M97xE, Lafayette LR1100 for tuner, Hagerman Audio Labs Bugle 2 phono stage, NAD C352 integrated, Boston Acoustics VR 2, Boston PV500, generic ICs, and BJC Belden speaker cables.

    Desktop: Dell Precision 690 running iTunes, Yamaha RX-v665, Monitor Audio R90s, Velodyne VA-907, generic ICs and speaker cables.
    I've always thought the goal of high-end audio was not to have your neighbors bang on the wall and say, 'Turn that darn music down' but to have your neighbors bang on the wall and say, 'Tell your friends to go home and you can practice later this week'.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,266
    edited August 26
    In your video, you seem to focus the attention more on the right-side drivers of the right speaker, and also the right-side drivers of the left speaker.

    The right-side drivers of the right speaker are the dimensional drivers, and the right-side drivers of the left speaker are the stereo drivers.

    I'm not well versed in that particular SDA-SRS speaker but, correct me if I'm wrong, I assume they operate similarly where the dimensional drivers handle the bass below 150Hz?
    Edited to include: Also the out of phase signal for the opposite speaker, but I was focusing more on the bass signals.

    Maybe that's what you're seeing....but not discounting what others suggested in regards to polarity and leaks.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,045
    edited August 28
    I agree with what others have said to check for air leaks first....but also.....

    What is your source? (it almost appears to be rumble or a warp, but not sure)
    Are your tone controls set to flat?
    Is the left speaker in a corner and the right not so close to a corner?
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-
    Epos-
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    Advent-

  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,045
    gmcman wrote: »
    In your video, you seem to focus the attention more on the right-side drivers of the right speaker, and also the right-side drivers of the left speaker.

    The right-side drivers of the right speaker are the dimensional drivers, and the right-side drivers of the left speaker are the stereo drivers.

    I'm not well versed in that particular SDA-SRS speaker but, correct me if I'm wrong, I assume they operate similarly where the dimensional drivers handle the bass below 150Hz?
    Edited to include: Also the out of phase signal for the opposite speaker, but I was focusing more on the bass signals.

    Maybe that's what you're seeing....but not discounting what others suggested in regards to polarity and leaks.

    If I play test tones on my pair, all the drivers move approximately the same amount, whether dimensional or the stereo drivers.

    Since it is low passed at about 150 hz, they all get approx, the same amount of bass signal.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-
    Epos-
    Infinity-
    Advent-

  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue. By ear I couldn't hear much difference in the midrange.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,608
    Having a lot of excursion is not a problem and may in fact be desired.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,166
    xschop wrote: »
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue. By ear I couldn't hear much difference in the midrange.
    You cannot replace 6511s with 6502s. Their T/S parameters are vastly different.
    The midrange would not change, but deep bass would. You've de-tuned the cabinet.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    edited August 29
    Yes, the trade-off was a few lower Hz for higher volume. In addition to looking like the 6511's were about to pop at high volume, the higher excursion of the 6511's did muddy the midrange as well. At moderate volume levels, I didn't hear a midrange difference, I should have added.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,266
    xschop wrote: »
    From experience the MW6511's have a lot of excursion, I swapped them out for 6502's and alleviated the issue.

    Out of curiosity, was this on the original crossover?
  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,266
    xschop wrote: »
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.

    I don't have all the stats in front of me, perhaps others can chime in, but like westmassguy stated, you have changed the tune of the speaker. Those drivers are spec'd for that enclosure and that particular crossover. Did you factor in the possible, well-aged components of the crossover that are likely due for replacement, that are possibly contributing to your muddy midrange?

  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    Both sets of CRS+ crossovers were recapped. Pics of mine are here.
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,166
    xschop wrote: »
    Yes, factory CRS+ crossovers. Incidentally, the CRS+ crossovers in Monitor 10s sound just as great with one of the 6503's swapped to a 6502 for the SDA driver. Indeed, the 6511's dig deeper, but also has high excursion in the larger enclosure/PR combo.
    The 6503 is 8 ohm nominal, the 6502 is 4 ohm nominal. They are not even remotely close.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,266
    xschop wrote: »
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.

    Can you explain "why" you would use a 4 ohm driver in place of an 8 ohm driver? I'm just trying to understand, because in my limited amount of expertise I can give, you could be changing the crossover network as much as a whole octave or more.

    That's substantial.
  • xschopxschop Posts: 875
    Because you swap in the CRS+ crossover?
  • pkquatpkquat Posts: 603
    gmcman wrote: »
    xschop wrote: »
    Exactly. That's why you substitute the 6503 for a 6502/6511 in the SDA-10.

    Can you explain "why" you would use a 4 ohm driver in place of an 8 ohm driver? I'm just trying to understand, because in my limited amount of expertise I can give, you could be changing the crossover network as much as a whole octave or more.

    That's substantial.

    Driver swaps based solely on Nominal Impedance are 6503/6510 (8 Ohm), 6502/6511 (4 Ohm).

    The M10 came with two 6503 drivers. The later pin/blade CRS+ models came with either a 6503 or 6510 and a 6511. To have the SDA work properly with the CRS+ crossover in an M10, now SDA-10 you also need to replace one of the 6503 drivers with the proper 4 Ohm 6511 driver, or 6502 in @xschop 's case.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,045
    Seems we lost the O.P.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-
    Epos-
    Infinity-
    Advent-

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