Finally, my entrance into the vinyl rabbit hole!
Comments
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mlistens03 wrote: ».... All of them use NCS music unfortunately, but it still sounds nice...
Dare I ask: What is "NCS music"?
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mhardy6647 wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: ».... All of them use NCS music unfortunately, but it still sounds nice...
Dare I ask: What is "NCS music"?
Oh sorry... No Copyright Sounds for YouTube. -
Micah, I admire you as well for attempting a fix, but here are a few things to consider:
- Once you start working on it, the seller may not take it back. Especially since it was working when it left his shop.
- If you're getting noise from all sources, the problem is likely to be more than that one cap. As ClipDat mentioned, that cap is related to power supply, with likely no audio signal even passing through it. Capacitors involved in filtering frequencies are the ones in speaker crossovers. I have a vintage receiver right now that I'm trying to fix, which has some low-level hiss/white noise. So far, I've replaced probably two dozen capacitors on the power supply and amp boards, AND I've replaced all eight output transistors...still no joy. Do you have the service manual for yours?
- And talk about a rabbit hole. It's easy to start throwing parts at these old units all to no avail. I've been there. "Oh, just one more capacitor/transistor ought to do the trick!" Without proper diagnostic/testing equipment, amateurs like us
This is a good point, but I think if this doesn’t fix it, my dad has a friend who can give me a diagnosis cheaply ($10) and he will also fix it cheaply for me (if I can’t do it myself, of course), so I may take him up on that offer. He actually does proffesional repairs, my father had his turntable repaired by him a few weeks ago.
I’m also not going to use expensive caps, so if I replace caps until I find it, worst case scenario it will cost me $20, using Unicon (or something similar, like the ones mentioned a few posts back) capacitors. Good caps that will last a while, but aren’t going to seriously improve sound quality. Just restore what has been lost due to age. -
Sounds good. Nichicon is another good brand for basic caps...made in Japan, NOT China. Going through all the filters at the Digikey website can be overwhelming, but here is one that fits your specs https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/nichicon/TVX1C102MCD/493-14398-ND/2539867 Make SURE to measure the dimensions of your existing cap (length, width/diameter) and compare to the replacement. Good luck!"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Sounds good. Nichicon is another good brand for basic caps...made in Japan, NOT China. Going through all the filters at the Digikey website can be overwhelming, but here is one that fits your specs https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/nichicon/TVX1C102MCD/493-14398-ND/2539867 Make SURE to measure the dimensions of your existing cap (length, width/diameter) and compare to the replacement. Good luck!
Thanks! I will order some of these today or tomorrow. -
You're welcome. I have to say, the new one in the stock pic looks very similar to the one in your pic (i.e., no real bulging or swelling in yours
) "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
You're welcome. I have to say, the new one in the stock pic looks very similar to the one in your pic (i.e., no real bulging or swelling in yours )
If you look at the edge of the seal around the bottom, it is lifting up. I think that instead of deforming the bottom, it is just pushing it out. -
I'm not a cap expert, but it looks fine to me. Shrug.
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I'm not a cap expert, but it looks fine to me. Shrug.
Every cap I’ve looked at has the bottom plastic level with the black piece on the bottom of the cap. On this one it looks like it has pushed the plastic out of the way, as usually there is at least a little bit of the blue/black/etc. plastic covering the bottom piece.
Of course, these caps are five years older than any other cap I’ve ever dealt with, so maybe they were made differently. -
Here's the replacement, even it's plastic isn't fully flush.
Anyway, I'm gonna bow out of this one now. I'm out of my element.
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If I’m honest, I am too
Doc, can you give us your expert opinion on this subject? -
I opined earlier that the capacitor isn't likely to be the culprit and that I am skeptical that it's a problem (in general).
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2428583#Comment_2428583mhardy6647 wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: »Ah, HAA!
I’ll bet it was the switch and this cap here working together to mess up the sound!
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Why?
That little electrolytic looks like it's in the power supply (I say that based on the four diodes to its left, which I am guessing is a full wave bridge).
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2428588#Comment_2428588mhardy6647 wrote: »certainly won't hurt to toss a new 1000 uF @ 16V in its place... but I am skeptical.
I've never been much of a fan of diagnosing bad capacitors based on their appearance, truth be told -- although sometimes it is obvious if they've exploded and been eviscerated.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »I opined earlier that the capacitor isn't likely to be the culprit and that I am skeptical that it's a problem (in general).
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2428583#Comment_2428583mhardy6647 wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: »Ah, HAA!
I’ll bet it was the switch and this cap here working together to mess up the sound!
...
Why?
That little electrolytic looks like it's in the power supply (I say that based on the four diodes to its left, which I am guessing is a full wave bridge).
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2428588#Comment_2428588mhardy6647 wrote: »certainly won't hurt to toss a new 1000 uF @ 16V in its place... but I am skeptical.
Oops... sorry, I forgot -
@Clipdat That is an awesome gesture, when I FIRST got here @Nightfall offered to loan me an amp. Reasons like this are why I stay...well that and you know I don't have any friends that are into audio like I am locally.
While there is a great risk with vintage gear I still rely on my vintage Yamaha. Got it for $24 bucks and never had an issue with it. Sounds great to me too, Nichicon caps and all.
Granted I am still eventually going to move over to B&K but I get what you are saying. My problem with vintage isn't the cost but the cost of a refresh and possibly changing the sound doing so.Post edited by codycatalist onJust a dude doing dude-ly things
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codycatalist wrote: »@Clipdat That is an awesome gesture, when I FIRST got here @motorhead43026 offered to loan me an amp. Reasons like this are why I stay...well that and you know I don't have any friends that are into audio like I am locally.
Definitely!
While there is a great risk with vintage gear I still rely on my vintage Yamaha. Got it for $24 bucks and never had an issue with it. Sounds great to me too, Nichicon caps and all.
Granted I am still eventually going to move over to B&K but I get what you are saying. My problem with vintage isn't the cost but the cost of a refresh and possibly changing the sound doing so.
Hopefully if I use the same brand and value capacitors, it will sound exactly the same as it did brand new. Because some of those caps must have wandered off by now... -
I've finally upgraded my turntable! I found this Dual 1242 at the flea market yesterday from my buddy down there for $40. First audio-related purchase of mine in quite some time (not including the assorted gear y'all have sent to me, for which I am still very thankful!). When I got it, I knew the automatic features did not work, and I knew that some other stuff was kind of funny (but not haha funny.)
So I got it home and gave it a good external once over, then plugged it in. It instantly started, but I couldn't make it stop in either 33 1/3 or 45 RPM. I also couldn't do any fine-tuning, and both speeds were far too fast. So I opened it up (not a trivial task, you have to undo 3 screws and swing them sideways) and found the switch to start and stop the platter. I moved that back and forth 15-20 times until it loosened up, and worked reliably every time.
So now that it was starting and stopping, I had to fix the speed tuning knob. Now, may I start this description off with how I thought the electronics worked at the time; power comes in from the wall, goes through a pot for speed, and then to the motor. little did I know it is even simpler than that. Almost everything on this table is mechanical, Unlike my Technics.
But anyway... I pulled everything apart again and pulled off the motor. The tuning knob on top is not directly connected to the tuning control, but rather uses a toothed belt to connect to it. when you pull off the belt, there is a spindle, which from the top down holds a nut, a white plastic piece, and a black plastic piece, which when the black piece turns, screw/unscrew together to become taller or shorter. The black plastic piece rotates, holds the belt, and has teeth on it. the white piece is stationary. Under the black piece, there is a (most likely) brass piece, which is folded in a way so that it sits on top of the motor pulley. (I'm doing a terrible job of describing this, so I will find a schematic/post a picture later... as they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words
) Under the brass piece, there is a small spring. and under that, there is... a weld? I was dumbfounded, because the spindle, despite my previous assumption, was not a pot.
after inspecting the mechanism, I settled on friction as their solution for adjustment. (My dad had stopped by at this time, and we were both laughing at the inelegance of their solution.)
I still couldn't get the plate to sit low enough to reach the pulley, so I did a quick Google. it turns out, the motor pulley is cut so that it looks a bit like an orange. Inside the pulley, there is a second part that has a cone on the top. when you turn the tuning knob, it pushes down on the plate, which forces the cone into the motor spindle. This makes the motor pulley bigger. The problem was caused by the cone being locked up inside the pulley from grease turned to goo.
Once I figured that out, I took the pulley off of the motor, soaked it in isopropyl alcohol to break down and clean out the old grease, and use a Q-tip dipped in the alcohol to clean the old grease off of the spindle as well. Upon reassembly, It worked! I then inspected the cartridge that came on it (An Audio Technica VS245LP or something) which was in good enough shape to play. I set up the VTA, alignment, etc. and voila! I have a working turntable.
I haven't gotten a lot of time on it yet, but the one side of a record I've heard (Side 3 of ELO's Out of the Blue) sounded very nice. I can't say it sounded better than the Technics, because I have yet to put my other Audio Technica on it, but it did sound great! I will provide more updates as things happen.
Part two is to run to hobby town and get some lubricant so I can replace all the oil/grease currently in there. Do you guys have any (affordable) recommendations for that? Thanks in advance.
-Micah
P.S. I've not been online lately, so I have a little bit of catching up to do. I've been quite busy between school, working with my grandpa and a trip to PA and NC last week. Hopefully, I'll have more time for audio and the forum looking forward. -
Micah,
Congrats on your 1242! That looks like a fine specimen...very clean. I have a 1249 which is very similar. My daughter currently uses it.
You figured out how the speed adjustment works with the expanding pulley and cone which presses into it from the top. Be VERY careful with that toothed belt between the adjustment knob and pulley assembly. Those are almost impossible to replace.
You may already know, but the service manual for that can be found on Vinyl Engine here: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1242.shtml But to download it, you'll have to register. I might be able to send it to you electronically if you don't want to register. There's also a section on VE dedicated to Duals: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewforum.php?f=37 Sadly, Klaus (dualcan) no longer seems to participate, but there are many other knowledgeable folks there, and LOTS of archived Q&A/troubleshooting threads.
Regarding the proper grease to use, OEM was Alvania grease. This is quite difficult to find in a reasonably small quantity, but there's a guy on VE who sells little containers of it for cheap. He also sells other bits as well for vintage Duals like stuerpimples, PDF refurbishing guides, etc. He is member 'mrow2' (aka, Don).
There are about 4 different lubricants in service manuals for lubing the various bits in Duals, so choose carefully. Reach out to me via PM if you have any questions. My first foray into tinkering with turntables was on Duals...I jumped straight into the deep end of the pool without even realizing it! Darn things are held together with springs and c/e-clips and not much else. Yes, a little over-engineered, but they fought the whole transistor thing as long as they could."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
I found the service manual on Vinyl Engine. I created an account there a while back after they were the only place with manuals for my Lafayette receiver. Anytime I have anything I can't find a manual for, Vinyl Engine is my go to.
I may see about shooting this "mrow2" character a PM over there.
I assume I would need all four of them? Or is there a "one size fits all" lubricant, so to speak?
When I first started with the speed adjustment, it seemed like the belt had stretched because it would slip a little bit from time to time. I tried to find a replacement, and there is a guy on eBay who sells them. Interestingly enough, they don't actually have teeth, it just appears to be your average belt. I don't know how well it would work, but in a pinch I imagine it'd be worth $7 +shipping. FWIW
Thanks! -Micah -
Hmmm...perhaps it was the sister site, HiFi Engine, where you found the manual for your Lafayette receiver??? I can't imagine finding a manual for a receiver on VE. Anyway...
I think Don only sells the Alvania grease. For the other lubes, it will depend on how far you want to go with your restoration as to whether you'll need them. The Alvania grease is used for almost all of the levers and switches (not electronic switches). There are other lubes (oils) for the spindle bearing, motor bearing, and cue lift damping, so it just depends on what all you want/need to service. Don sells a handy 'Service Guide' in PDF form that is good for all 10XX 12XX Dual turntables. It is well worth it IMO. I wish I could just share my copy with you, but I will respect his copyrighted property
Having said that, you might also look at Klaus' (dualcan) website here: https://dualcan.tumblr.com/ In the 'Service Tips' section, he has some free PDF files for download - mainly the first two for the motor and main cam. The other files are primarily just pics.
Good to know regarding that little belt. I have seen refurbs where remaining teeth are just ground away on an existing belt as a last resort (i.e., the teeth are too brittle)."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
It probably was hifi engine, that was almost a year ago now I think, so I can't quite remember.
I will go and find Don on VE as soon as I'm done posting here! And I will take a look at Klaus' site.
I must ask, this thing when it is on makes a very quiet ticking sound. At first I thought it was a bomb so I took cover, but when it didn't go off I decided it must be something else. (Beat you to it Viking!) anyway, I looked for things the platter could be hitting, or possibly the belt, but I haven't found anything yet. It doesn't make noise without the platter on it, so it must be from the platter, right? If you have any ideas on what it could be that'd be awesome.
Thanks again! -
Happy to help! So if you remove the drive belt, and just spin the platter by hand (at normal speed), does it tick? If so, it is probably the spindle bearing needing some love. You can also remove the top platter and just spin the sub platter to listen closer for the origin of the ticking. Of course if the ticking happens once every revolution (at the same point), you are almost assured it is either the platter brushing something every time around, or something in the spindle bearing.
In Klaus' "Servicing Dual Motors" PDF guide, the detail on the spindle bearing starts on page 17. The proper replacement oil (after a thorough cleaning of the parts) is chain saw oil since it has good adhesion properties. I can send you some if needed. The quart I purchased could do a few hundred turntables!"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
It does not tick without the drive belt installed. It does with the belt (obviously.) I used the belt to spin the motor without the platter on it as well, and still no ticking. I wonder if the belt itself is the culprit somehow?
And forgive my ignorance... what is a sub platter/top platter? By top platter, are you referring to the rubber mat on top? Or something else?
I'll look a bit more into Klaus' guide right now. Thanks! I might have missed that.
And on the front of the chainsaw oil... thank you very much! But I'm pretty sure we have some in the garage, and if we don't then my grandpa definitely does. But once again, this shows the greatness of this forum and the members therein. -
Process of elimination...as with many things audio How does the motor sound on its own...with no belt at all? Without the belt (and without the platter), you should be able to move the tonearm over the platter (area), and the motor will start. Any ticking?
Also, how is it holding speed? Steady? Speed instability is usually the first sign of a bad belt. But hey, let's not rule it out for that ticking sound just yet. With belt drive tt's that have sat idle awhile, the belt can develop a 'memory', and create an uneven rotation. When you pull the belt off and lay it on the table, is it still round, or more teardrop shaped???
My apologies on the sub-platter thing. I thought the 1242 might have a two-piece platter like the 1249, but alas, it doesn't.
You may be able to service the 'platter support bearing' without removing the main cam, but likely the cam will have to be loosened at a minimum. But again, it comes down to how much servicing you want to do. Trust me when I say you don't want to have to go in there multiple times disassembling things. If you have to remove the cam, might as well service it while you're at it.
Jody"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
It doesn't tick with the motor spinning freely.
It is holding speed OK, but not amazingly. I think wow/flutter was 0.38%? And that's because the platter spindle needs love like you said, although I don't think it's the cause of the ticking.
The ticking I'm referring to isn't once per rotation. Have you ever turned a mechanical timer faster than it isn't intended to? It has that speed to it.
Now this may end up being a bit controversial here, but given that the automatic system is broken, and I don't care about having an automatic TT (in fact, I'd prefer a manual) how bad of an idea is it to simply remove all the automatic mechanisms and such? Id leave everything that needs to be there for the manual functions, but remove the big gear in the middle, and all the other automatic associated stuff.
On the front of the belt, that very well could be the culprit. But it is a circle when I set it down, although there do appear to be some... inconsistencies? There are a couple of spots where no matter how hard I try to straighten it, it bends a bit inward or outward, but maybe that's normal.
I'll do a bit more testing and see what happens. I might even try pulling the belt off my dads TT (I know, slim chance it'll work but if it happens to grip and it doesn't tick the next I'll know the problem. )
Thanks again,
-Micah -
Might be time to take the conversation to the Dual sub-forum on VE. That ticking is a puzzle if not coming from the bearing, nor the motor.
I might have missed the fact that auto functions are not working. That may simply be the stuerpimple needing replacing, but again, go to VE for more info. I would NOT advocate removing mechanisms in hopes of alleviating the problem. It would decrease value of the unit, and still might not 'solve' problems.
Working on vintage Dual turntables is a love/hate relationship. It's kind of all or nothing. Personally, I find it rewarding to tinker on them, and get them back into working order. If you can fix a Dual, everything else seems easy. At a minimum, it is good experience to have under your belt."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Might be time to take the conversation to the Dual sub-forum on VE. That ticking is a puzzle if not coming from the bearing, nor the motor.
I might have missed the fact that auto functions are not working. That may simply be the stuerpimple needing replacing, but again, go to VE for more info. I would NOT advocate removing mechanisms in hopes of alleviating the problem. It would decrease value of the unit, and still might not 'solve' problems.
Working on vintage Dual turntables is a love/hate relationship. It's kind of all or nothing. Personally, I find it rewarding to tinker on them, and get them back into working order. If you can fix a Dual, everything else seems easy. At a minimum, it is good experience to have under your belt.
Ok, I will drop in over there later when I am at my computer. Thanks for helping so far!
I was not thinking of removing the automatic mechanisms to fix the table, rather because even if they are there, I probably wouldn't use them. That was really a separate question.
So far I've enjoyed working on this thing, and I plan to continue working on it. I think I definitely fall on the love side of the spectrum
Thanks for your help! I will swing by VE before I start school.
-Micah -
mlistens03 wrote: »I found the service manual on Vinyl Engine. I created an account there a while back after they were the only place with manuals for my Lafayette receiver. Anytime I have anything I can't find a manual for, Vinyl Engine is my go to.
I may see about shooting this "mrow2" character a PM over there. I assume I would need all four of them? Or is there a "one size fits all" lubricant, so to speak?
When I first started with the speed adjustment, it seemed like the belt had stretched because it would slip a little bit from time to time. I tried to find a replacement, and there is a guy on eBay who sells them. Interestingly enough, they don't actually have teeth, it just appears to be your average belt. I don't know how well it would work, but in a pinch I imagine it'd be worth $7 +shipping. FWIW
Thanks! -Micah
My first turntable was a Dual 1249 purchased new in the mid 70's. A fine turntable. My second turntable was a Dual 1249 found at my local Goodwill about 4-5 years ago. I still had both of them until September of this year; I gave one to a friend in Jackson MS. His grandmother had given his turntable away before he could resurrect it. A Pioneer PL-570 Direct Drive from the 70's joined the Duals and a techniques model given to me by my best friend a few years ago.
On the Duals, as Jody said "mrow2" is the man to know. Don has a good restoration manual and sells the stuerpimple which I purchased from him for my two Duals. I had to replace the 640 motor with the 660 motor on the Dual 1249's because of the known speed problem.
Don's father was one of the original sales/marketing people with Fender. By the way, turntables sound better when you are sippin Tequila.
Harry in Marietta GA."Sometimes you have to look to the past to understand where you are going in the future"Anger is just anger. It isn’t good. It isn’t bad. It just is. What you do with it is what matters.
You can use it to build or to destroy. You just have to make the choice. Jim Butcher
Harry / Marietta GA -
I couldn't agree more, HarryBlueBirdMusic wrote: »By the way, turntables sound better when you are sippin Tequila.
Harry in Marietta GA. Spinning turntables from Germany, Japan, England, while sipping a Mexican spirit - it is very cosmopolitan 
"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
BlueBirdMusic wrote: »mlistens03 wrote: »I found the service manual on Vinyl Engine. I created an account there a while back after they were the only place with manuals for my Lafayette receiver. Anytime I have anything I can't find a manual for, Vinyl Engine is my go to.
I may see about shooting this "mrow2" character a PM over there. I assume I would need all four of them? Or is there a "one size fits all" lubricant, so to speak?
When I first started with the speed adjustment, it seemed like the belt had stretched because it would slip a little bit from time to time. I tried to find a replacement, and there is a guy on eBay who sells them. Interestingly enough, they don't actually have teeth, it just appears to be your average belt. I don't know how well it would work, but in a pinch I imagine it'd be worth $7 +shipping. FWIW
Thanks! -Micah
My first turntable was a Dual 1249 purchased new in the mid 70's. A fine turntable. My second turntable was a Dual 1249 found at my local Goodwill about 4-5 years ago. I still had both of them until September of this year; I gave one to a friend in Jackson MS. His grandmother had given his turntable away before he could resurrect it. A Pioneer PL-570 Direct Drive from the 70's joined the Duals and a techniques model given to me by my best friend a few years ago.
On the Duals, as Jody said "mrow2" is the man to know. Don has a good restoration manual and sells the stuerpimple which I purchased from him for my two Duals. I had to replace the 640 motor with the 660 motor on the Dual 1249's because of the known speed problem.
Don's father was one of the original sales/marketing people with Fender. By the way, turntables sound better when you are sippin Tequila.
Harry in Marietta GA.
Wow, seems like both you and Jody have a lot of experience with Duals! I'll need to find some more to catch up.
I'm certain that it would sound better drinking tequila! But I'm 16, so that's not allowed. And even if I was old enough, I don't think I would.
-Micah
