Did some HDR and Dolby Vision training over the last 2 days

mantis

I'm not a videophile and never could be. I almost hate video due to all the issues and compression that goes on.
Today you really have 2 choices LED or OLED. Both technologies have flaws and real world issues.
LED Tv's in general have motion blur. Even the mighty Z9D and 940E from Sony have these issues. Off axis viewing is horrible , flashlight blooming on the screen , can't reproduce correct blacks and have poor grey scale.
Pro's of a LED TV is that they can get very bright and get into he Nit counts required for HDR and Dolby Vision. Not so much Dolby Vision as they decided to go all the way to 10,000 nits which nothing can reproduce that level of brightness.

With OLED the issues with them are they can't replay the highest level of brightness. Most stop under 700 Nits which isn't able to replay what studios are mastering to today which is 800-1000 nits in HDR.
Also burn in and image retention is a scary issue which is worse then plasma was. I never burned anything into mine and I game on it all the time.
OLED's do not have any of the issues LED's do. They are smooth and clean. IMO they look much better then the best LED's on the market.

So I have been thinking about buying a 4k HDR Dolby Vision Tv and I can't seem to buy one. The Z9D from Sony is really nice but I hate all it's flaws. They are minimum compared to all other LED"s on the market but it still has them.

I love the Sony A1E but the 77 inch is just outside what I want to pay for a new tv and it can't get to the brightness required by the new video formats.

Micro LED is coming and so is 8k which who really cares about 8 k anyway. 4k is already reaching the limitation of what we can see so 8 k to me makes no sense. I think the real killer is Dolby Vision. HDR is incredible but Dolby vision isn't static like HDR is. I understand they are fixing that with HDR 10 Plus. That requires a whole new HDMI spec in 2.1 so everything currently on the market will just fall to the waste side.

Video is frustrating to say the least.

rpf65

So...You're not buying a new TV? Or maybe you will but...?

dolbyd

I so agree.
I bought my 940E knowing all the new changes coming. Its like you just have to jump in the pool eventually. My DLP was done.

The center green burn in on the OLED was on every Set I looked at. Once you see it is so noticeable. Agree on the nits issue. It is also a no go if you don't have a dark room.
My 940E has been calibrated so its not bad on motion. You can still see it but the set is so good in other ways. I can live with it.
With HDMI 2.1 coming next year I see a lot of push for new Stuff all over again. I will stick with my 2.0 setup as long as I can. Most is new in the last year.

Nothing like keeping the economy rolling with a new set of Standards.

pitdogg2

8K only makes sense Dan because there will not be a need to process down to 4k. Which is really what they've been doing for a few years now.

I agree with most of what you have said. I see horrible motion artifacts on LED TV's. I love it when people tell me I'm not. It's like i do not tell you what colors you're seeing HTF do you know what I'm effing seeing.

Viking64

"fall to the waste side"

I bet that put a smile on Archie Bunker's face.

mpitogo

Go with the best you can and enjoy it. It seems there is always something new every year and waiting for perfection near impossible. But if you enjoy what you currently have, stick to it. Receivers are in the same category.

For the longest time I was running a Denon AVR-4802R and was enjoying it but newer TVs, video and audio formats was starting to make it obsolete. It’s still a great Amp but not so much for everything else. I jumped into Atmos but jumped in one generation too early with the Marantz SR7009. I should have waited for the SR7010. Only difference for me which mattered was HDR. SR7009 did 4K but didn’t have HDR pass through on the 4K switching. Thankfully the Apps have HDR with ARC to the receiver and the Sony BDP X800 had dual HDMI out, one to the TV for 4K HDR video and the other for audio with Atmos.

halo

What about projectors?

Clipdat

Personally I'd take a projector any day, assuming the space is right for it. They look damn good and they're a lot easier on the eyes for longer viewing sessions, imo.

halo wrote: »

What about projectors?

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

If you are seeking perfection you won't buy anything. I know the flaws of my 940C but I still love the thing. The motion control works well but still has its issues at times.

I'd say just keep your plasma for now and worry about it later. Eventually they'll get OLED right and by then they will be more affordable anyways.

PS - your rant sounds a bit videophilish to me.... just sayin.

Bingo....

There will never be perfection when it comes to consumer products. If there was, what motivation would you have to buy next years models ? Isn't that the name of the game...to keep you upgrading, buying the latest and greatest, keep the wheels of the economy churning ? Now we have the standards changing yet again, for technology not available on broadcast TV. They still haven't caught up with old technology. With more and more people dumping the physical media, watching Netflix, all this new tech is worthless.

Dan, if your waiting for perfection, might as well throw in the towel in this A/V game. To me anyway, my Sony led is every bit as good as my Kuro was, better in picture quality, no motion blur on sports, no burn in, but it still has it's drawbacks with viewing angles. For me, those flaws can be compensated for. The enjoyable part is picture quality, not having to worry about burn in, a brighter picture. My plasma looked dull in comparison. None of LED flaws will actually hurt your TV, can't say the same for Oled.

steveinaz

...and to add to that, TV's can be super-awesome, but if the program material is squashed--its all for nothing. 1080p doesn't looks as sharp as it use to, I suspect higher compression.

pitdogg2

steveinaz wrote: »

...and to add to that, TV's can be super-awesome, but if the program material is squashed--its all for nothing. 1080p doesn't looks as sharp as it use to, I suspect higher compression.

Agree get an over the air antenna and see what it really should look like... AMAZING

tonyb

Definitely higher compression Steve. It would be nice, just sayin'....if we had one source with an abundant of channels in good pic quality, instead of having to change inputs for everything. Women, as in wives, get confused easily with all this switching to just watch tv .

BC6

DSkip wrote: »

If you are seeking perfection you won't buy anything. I know the flaws of my 940C but I still love the thing.

I agree. I have the 55" Sony A1E OLED and love it even with its flaws. Both the Sony and my Apple TV just updated to Dolby Vision. I didn't think it would make much difference, but holy cow it did. The colors and clarity are much better, however it is way less bright. It already wasn't super bright, but now it's even less so. With OLED vs LED you have to give up something, and I've personally never cared about bright. I want a TV that approximates real life, and people don't glow in real life like they do on the bright LEDs, even though the glowing is really pretty. It's mostly the same as audio. It's all about finding what you like and not seeking perfection.

mantis

rpf65 wrote: »

So...You're not buying a new TV? Or maybe you will but...?

I've been trying to buy a new tv for years now. I want 4k and HDR but can't lock down a set. the A8F OLED looks good but the brightness seems to be it's only issue. I don't really care about price for any 65 inch model. The 75/77 inch on the other hand the OLED A1E gets a bit out of my price range.
I got a shootout right now going between the Z9D A1E and the new A8F. I think eventually when I weigh in all the ups and downs one will come home for good.

mantis

DSkip wrote: »

If you are seeking perfection you won't buy anything. I know the flaws of my 940C but I still love the thing. The motion control works well but still has its issues at times.

I'd say just keep your plasma for now and worry about it later. Eventually they'll get OLED right and by then they will be more affordable anyways.

PS - your rant sounds a bit videophilish to me.... just sayin.

Sure does after re reading it to see it from your prospective.

mantis

dolbyd wrote: »

I so agree.
I bought my 940E knowing all the new changes coming. Its like you just have to jump in the pool eventually. My DLP was done.

The center green burn in on the OLED was on every Set I looked at. Once you see it is so noticeable. Agree on the nits issue. It is also a no go if you don't have a dark room.
My 940E has been calibrated so its not bad on motion. You can still see it but the set is so good in other ways. I can live with it.
With HDMI 2.1 coming next year I see a lot of push for new Stuff all over again. I will stick with my 2.0 setup as long as I can. Most is new in the last year.

Nothing like keeping the economy rolling with a new set of Standards.

I've watched the 940E for like 6 to 8 hours now. Last time I was watching the new Transformers King Author stuff in the beginning and the motion blur was pretty bad for me at least. I messed with the Motion settings and really improved it. The size and price of the 940E is really nice but the Z9D is a better set. The 75 inch Z9D is pricey but the 65 is very affordable.
I'm stuck on OLED until I figure out all it's flaws in person. So far I have seen none other then reading about the Nit limitation and burn in issues. I have not seen this myself, I don't run static images for any length of time as I game and watch Tv movies etc. My family barely uses the TV , my wife will watch some games shows, the news and a movie with me once in a while. I watch it the most.

mantis

pitdogg2 wrote: »

8K only makes sense Dan because there will not be a need to process down to 4k. Which is really what they've been doing for a few years now.

I agree with most of what you have said. I see horrible motion artifacts on LED TV's. I love it when people tell me I'm not. It's like i do not tell you what colors you're seeing HTF do you know what I'm effing seeing.

LED people try to ignore that as well as off axis viewing issues but they are there. The motion blur is really the only thing holding me up from just buying a Z9D or the 940E. Funny the new 900F seems to have the least I've seen in a LED as I put one in last friday and I was surprised on it's overall performance. Very nice set and the price can't be beat vs performance. It's tempting to just get a 900F 65 or 75 for that matter and call it a day

mantis

halo wrote: »

What about projectors?

Currently even the Laser Projectors can't reproduce the Nit's required for HDR. It's like the spec can't be reached other then a LED panel of the high end. Even the 9D falls short of spec and don't get me started with Dolby Vision, nothing on the market can touch those specs. It's like they made all these new formats but didn't consider current technologies ability to replay them.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

If you are seeking perfection you won't buy anything. I know the flaws of my 940C but I still love the thing. The motion control works well but still has its issues at times.

I'd say just keep your plasma for now and worry about it later. Eventually they'll get OLED right and by then they will be more affordable anyways.

PS - your rant sounds a bit videophilish to me.... just sayin.

Bingo....

There will never be perfection when it comes to consumer products. If there was, what motivation would you have to buy next years models ? Isn't that the name of the game...to keep you upgrading, buying the latest and greatest, keep the wheels of the economy churning ? Now we have the standards changing yet again, for technology not available on broadcast TV. They still haven't caught up with old technology. With more and more people dumping the physical media, watching Netflix, all this new tech is worthless.

Dan, if your waiting for perfection, might as well throw in the towel in this A/V game. To me anyway, my Sony led is every bit as good as my Kuro was, better in picture quality, no motion blur on sports, no burn in, but it still has it's drawbacks with viewing angles. For me, those flaws can be compensated for. The enjoyable part is picture quality, not having to worry about burn in, a brighter picture. My plasma looked dull in comparison. None of LED flaws will actually hurt your TV, can't say the same for Oled.

What LED are you running? The Z9D is the reference model right now, nothing made can out perform it. What I see in OLED Sony anyway I don't care much for the LG's but they are damn nice. I don't like the white levels with the sun burn effect it does it basically loses color correctness on the top end of white all other colors suffer when it tried to get up there.
The A1E is a perfect video performing set in everything but the last word in white levels brightness. It retains it's color correct temperature but crushes the whites at that level. I prefer that flaw over LG's.
I think besides the top end brightness the A1E video quality is the best I've ever seen. The A8F is supposed to be as good but mounts to the wall better with it's redesigned backing. I have not seen it go yet as I left for Belgium before we got any in. When I get back I'm hoping to see a A8F so I can decide if I want to go OLED or the Z9D in the 65 inch size. The only 75 inch sizes I'm considering is the new 900F and last years 940E. the 940E in ways looks better but I see things in the 900F I like better like motion.
Still picture quality the 940E is a better looking set. Black levels and light blooming all look better on the 940E. The only thing the 900F does better is the motion control. Other then that the 940e is a much better set.
The Z9D on the other hand does everything better then both sets but I'm not so sure on motion control. Surprising the new Motion abilities on the 900F is impressive and it's the thing I hate the most about LED. I could care less about the off axis viewing I watch from the middle. I'm a audiophile so there is no way I would not sit in the King seat LOL.

mantis

steveinaz wrote: »

...and to add to that, TV's can be super-awesome, but if the program material is squashed--its all for nothing. 1080p doesn't looks as sharp as it use to, I suspect higher compression.

I agree with you if your watching Comcast cable. Verizon still has a better picture IMO on my Kuro. On LED Tv's I had the 930E at the house for a week and the Kuro looked better for 1080P stuff which kinda depressed me as I really liked the 930e model.
The 930E is killer for HDR and 4k stuff, I was amazing and in awe WOW what a picture and I think it handles motion better then the 940e. It might be due to the larger panel size. Even the Z9D at 65 inch is hard to see blur. The 75 inch panels it's much easier to see.

mantis

BC6 wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

If you are seeking perfection you won't buy anything. I know the flaws of my 940C but I still love the thing.

I agree. I have the 55" Sony A1E OLED and love it even with its flaws. Both the Sony and my Apple TV just updated to Dolby Vision. I didn't think it would make much difference, but holy cow it did. The colors and clarity are much better, however it is way less bright. It already wasn't super bright, but now it's even less so. With OLED vs LED you have to give up something, and I've personally never cared about bright. I want a TV that approximates real life, and people don't glow in real life like they do on the bright LEDs, even though the glowing is really pretty. It's mostly the same as audio. It's all about finding what you like and not seeking perfection.

How long have you have the A1E? Any issues with it? I know about the brightness issues as I'm always getting slapped around by my Z9D co workers about it. They brag about their sets and say OLED isn't worth it right now as it's overall brightness wrecks the HDR and Dolby Vision overall experience. I don't have 4k HDR and Dolby vision yet so I can't comment either way personally. I know buying a new set for me anyway is way harder then I expected. I was just gonna buy the A1E then the 940e came down in price then the Z9D did then the A8F got announced then the 900F hit the market, for me it's been a whirlwind of a ride so far. I way enjoy the hunt just to admit and I think thats why I haven't pulled the trigger on one yet. I want to wallow in the hunt for just a bit more. Learn just a bit more before I decide what I'm gonna give up to get the other.

rpf65

The A1E and A8F are basically the same sets, as far as everything to do with the display. At least that's what I read. Haven't seen the A8F, so personally haven't compared the two, but supposedly very minor differences between them.

Hopefully Rtings will test one soon.

Think the Z9D has a great picture. Did a side by side with the A1E, and from head on, set up at BB, I really couldn't see much difference. Slight motion blur in the Z9D, but really wasn't too bad. Most people probably wouldn't have noticed it. Of course that was a movie scene, and not a hockey game, which would be the real test.

Haven't seen the 900F, but did see the 940E. Very good picture, but not up there with Z9D or A1E. From what I've read, the 940E has pretty bad motion blur, and slight blooming issues. Hopefully Sony did something to address those issues with the 900F models.

BC6

[/quote]
How long have you have the A1E? Any issues with it?
[/quote]

I've had it about 8 months. No serious issues other than adapting to the new awesomeness. My wife wanted me to take it back at first because it gave her headaches, but that was because her eyes couldn't adjust to how much better it was than the old tv. She tolerates it now, which for her is high praise.

There's also a ton of options for setting it up. I spent the first couple of months changing settings instead of watching shows. I finally looked up the settings on a website to lock it in and it was perfect. I haven't had the time to play with the Dolby Vision settings yet. It looks great but too dark.

dolbyd

I spent a lot of time researching and go back and forth like you are. If cost was equal I would have gone with the Z9D. I went for the 940E for the $2700 it left in my pocket. I also had to have a 75”.
When I upgrade the MB set I will go with whatever replaces the Z9D.

Once I got the set I had it professionally calibrated. Once that was done it is great. The guy who did it said he was impressed with the set.
He also said the new Ultimate chip will be a big step forward for both LED/OLED.

mantis

I'm basically ruling out the 940E at this point. The motion blur isn't for me.I'd rather spend the money on the Z9D and get a overall better set.
So basically I'm gonna get the Z9D or a OLED. Unless I find the 900F to make a real statement in the next few weeks which so far I think that set is pretty awesome, I'm gonna shootout the Z9D and one of the Sony OLED's and call it a day.
I know 8k and HDMI 2.2 is on it's way later this year or early next year. I can wait for those technologies to settle in a bit and go 4k HDR and Dolby Vision now.
Time to move on from 1080p and from Plasma.

dolbyd

mantis wrote: »

I'm basically ruling out the 940E at this point. The motion blur isn't for me.I'd rather spend the money on the Z9D and get a overall better set.
So basically I'm gonna get the Z9D or a OLED. Unless I find the 900F to make a real statement in the next few weeks which so far I think that set is pretty awesome, I'm gonna shootout the Z9D and one of the Sony OLED's and call it a day.
I know 8k and HDMI 2.2 is on it's way later this year or early next year. I can wait for those technologies to settle in a bit and go 4k HDR and Dolby Vision now.
Time to move on from 1080p and from Plasma.

Upgrading isn't always fun or simple for sure. I still have 2 Panasonic plasmas in the house so I know where your coming from.

Go Z9D, I still think OLED has work to be done. It is still too new technolgy I think.
I bet the new Ultimate chip will give Sony the edge to push it to the top for all room conditions.

mantis

The Z9D is one badass LED. I have not seen anything even close to it's performance in the LED world even though it's a 2016 model year TV. Sony didn't feel any need to upgrade it for 2 years now and going on it's 3rd.