50 watt amp with 5% distortion.........only $149,000. Interested?

FestYboy

I'm saying that it shouldn't, not that it doesn't.

F1nut

Ok, but it is a point without any merit unless one has the exact same equipment in the exact same room as it was recorded/mastered in.

FestYboy

DSkip wrote: »

Good recordings get closer but a solid system can still give you some of that with mediocre studio recordings.

This is why I like this forum! Skip please throw some tutelage at me, if you would. 2.5 years working in live sound and 3 years at Berklee has me a bit biased in a way.

marvda1

DSkip wrote: »

The objective of hifi for me is not to reproduce what the engineer recorded. It's to capture the magic of the performance. I'll throw detail out the window if it means I can hear the sincerity of the singers lyrics as she sings them. If I wanted a truthful system I'd get monitors in near field and be done. Reproducing the sound has many layers to it though and monitors don't cover the entire spectrum.

You'll never get completely there regardless, but when your system reaches a certain level, even bad recordings are listenable and dare I say enjoyable. At this point, great recordings are like sitting in a cafe listening to them perform 10 feet in front of you.

Rosso had ruined every other speaker for me and I hate admitting that. I find value in other speakers but they'll never be my huckleberry. I skyped with Francesco a few days ago and asked him how he approaches speaker design. He likened it to a motorcycle trip. Sometimes you don't know where you are going, but you enjoy the ride and take in everything on the journey. When you get to where you are going, you know you have arrived. It's evident in his speakers that he enjoys that journey and definitely knows when he has arrived.

My visit to New Orleans keyed me into a better term and it's 'liveness'. Weird term but it's about the organic and natural presentation that makes the music feel intimate and real as opposed to a reproduction. This is what I seek and if you get that right, so many songs become more than simply a recording.

that's why back in the 80's i fell in love with the original klipsich (spelling) speakers.
you didn't listen for the usual audiophile items such as soundstage, imaging and the like, it was just fun, the real life sound and dynamics just made you want to dance.
of course as i got older and listened to a wider range of music and different systems.

i started to listen for the "audiophile" aspects of the sound.
like going from thunderbird/md 20/20 to a fine merlot

Joey_V

I think it’s essiest to accept that no component will be direct connect from one end to the next. You will never get to the source.

FestYboy

Joey_V wrote: »

I think it’s essiest to accept that no component will be direct connect from one end to the next. You will never get to the source.

I accept that completely (I have to, given what I was taught about electrical theory, acoustic engineering and physics) but if it's about getting to the sensation or emotive force, then why bother with specs at all? There must be truth of the source at some point.

codycatalist

DSkip wrote: »

The objective of hifi for me is not to reproduce what the engineer recorded. It's to capture the magic of the performance. I'll throw detail out the window if it means I can hear the sincerity of the singers lyrics as she sings them.

I don't think I have read a more truthful statement on this forum that applies to me as much as this.

FestYboy

DSkip wrote: »

They aren't exclusive points. There is more to it than just specs.

And there's the Crux of it all. At what point do they no longer hold significance? We use them as a benchmark and yet 2 units of identical spec can be miles apart in sound and price.

(I know this looks argumentative, but think of it as an exercise in approach).

msg

...but does it hum. That is the question.

Clipdat

Reported for douchebaggery.

msg wrote: »

...but does it hum. That is the question.

marvda1

i read years ago you can take two identical pieces of equipment off the assembly line and the two will sound different. so you can't go by specs, we learned in the 80's when we had the receiver wars of who can get the most watts and lowest distortion numbers. they all sounded like crap!

Joey_V

The main reason they sound different is that measurements are not encompassing... meaning they don’t measure everything an amp does. When the impedance is variable, a similarly measuring amp will no longer measure similarly.

mhardy6647

For my money -- if you want music that sounds real; like real, flesh and blood people singing and playing real musical instruments (even electronic ones!)... SET and high-sensitivity loudspeakers (which may or may not involve horns) will get you there the best for the $ invested.

Not that you can't get there other ways - but that's the way I've found that's best for me.

mhardy6647

I didn't.

For me, though, the magic (again, dollar for dollar) is when the loudspeakers are capable of real dynamics. The Frankenaltecs here can do that, in spades.

verb

Newbie trying to keep up. Taking notes.

verb

DSkip wrote: »

Don't discount high powered SE and average sensitivity speakers. To me SE is the key. Some solid state gets close and some push pull gets closer, but none of them reach SE. YMMV.

Keepin up!
https://www.passlabs.com/press/single-ended-class

msg

rePORted for being db enough to use the term db.

Clipdat wrote: »

Reported for douchebaggery.

msg wrote: »

...but does it hum. That is the question.

mpitogo

I say hog wash. I’ve heard some really $$$$ systems and the sound was very different but better? its subjective. Does more $$$$ really = better sound? Like cables, audio, digital, speaker or power, does it really make it better? Or is it only because you paid $$$ that psychoacousticly you think it does, like that phantom limb pushing you to never be satisfied no matter how good it sounds because you think something better is around the corner?

txcoastal1

When you start playing in the realm of systems over $50k plus speakers, it all starts with "THE SPEAKERS". Everything behind the speakers follows the law of diminishing returns. The tech is not really that different on the insides $30k...$50k amp vs $100k amp.

BUT...If I could afford to drop a million dollars into a room and not blink an eye, and enjoyed doing it.....yeah I would WTH not

mpitogo

Speakers, you’ve got me on that as it’s the laws of physics and I agree full dynamic range will take a considerable amount engineering. And speaker to speaker there are vast differences in sound where measurements can only go so far.

I’m probably just as bad of a hypocrite, I’m listening to Phish Fuego Vinyl Side B.

marvda1

below is the mastersound published specs on my compact 845 integrated.
tell me how it sounds? there are some that will not consider a piece of equipment if extensive specs are not shown.

SPECIFICATIONS:

Single Ended in Class "A"

Power
2 x 30 Watt

Finals tubes
2 x 845

Pre-drivers tubes
2 x ECC802

Drivers tubes
2 x 6SN7 GT

Input impedance
50K OHM

Inputs
3 x Line + 1 Direct

Output transformer
MASTERSOUND

Load impedance
4 – 8 Ohm

Negative feedback
0 dB

Volume
with remote control

Bandwidth
8 Hz / 40 kHz – 0dB

Dimensions
45 x 43 x 27 cm. (17.7 x 16.9 x 10.6 in)

Weight
34 Kg. (75 lbs)

Warranty
5 years (excluding tubes)

mhardy6647

marvda1 wrote: »

below is the mastersound published specs on my compact 845 integrated.
tell me how it sounds? there are some that will not consider a piece of equipment if extensive specs are not shown.
...

Such people -- are fools.



Well, they're not very open minded -- or maybe they're just not very right brained.

Oh, it is possible to make high-ish powered SET amplifiers with only one output device per channel. The trick is to use output triodes that were developed for RF amplifiers (AM transmitters). Those can go up to 50 thousand watts -- but they're generally not very practical for home audio -- and the plate voltages involved are spectacular.

http://www.modestoradiomuseum.org/border stations geo.html

Viking64

Isn't "plate voltage" when a restaurant serves you an electric eel?

FestYboy

@mhardy6647 I read the link and subsection on the transmittersand the tubes used. I'm familiar with "soiled state" amp topology and how they work, but I'm still fuzzy on tubes and their roll within the circuit (or more how exactly they operate) and the PS's role in their operation. Got any good links for that info? (If I go full on tube junkie because of this rabbit hole, I'm blaming you )

mhardy6647

Tubes are way simpler to understand than transistors. OK -- to methey're way easier to understand. They're also generally amenable to producing high performance via much simpler circuits (in the analog domain!) and much more forgiving of operation under "less than optimal" conditions than are transistors. Transistors are finicky little gizmos, way more susceptible to static discharge or power spikes than vacuum tubes, e.g.

How does a vacuum tube work, you say? Basically, electrons are boiled off of the cathode into a vacuum. They're attracted to a positively charged plate (a/k/a "anode"). If you just have a tube with those two elements (cathode and plate), you've made a diode, which can be used to "rectify" AC to DC -- just like a solid state diode.

The magic, as Lee DeForest (and probably others) figured out, is that you can intersperse a metal grid between the cathode and the plate. Now, imagine that you apply an "alternating current" (AC) voltage, one that swings between positive and negative, onto that grid*. The grid now acts variably to gate the flow of those electrons from cathode to plate as the signal applied to the grid varies. A small signal applied to the grid essentially gets magnified by the flow of all those electrons from cathode to plate -- and thus is a triode a signal amplifier.

Here's my favorite primer on vacuum tubes for absolute starters.
http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

I'll offer a few more "reading opportunities" anon and under separate cover, too!

HTH as they say.

______________________
* Where does that AC signal on the grid come from? A "source". That source could be, e.g., a microphone (which 'transduces' sound pressure waves into a small AC voltage and current) or a phonograph "pickup" (an old-time crystal phono cartridge can drive a power amplifier tube directly!).

FestYboy

Ok thats a lot easier to grasp except for how the traveling electrons amplify the source since they travel in DC, yet the amplified signal is in AC... and with only one tube per channel. I need to get my read on. It's the SET part that's throwing me.

mhardy6647

FestYboy wrote: »

Ok thats a lot easier to grasp except for how the traveling electrons amplify the source since they travel in DC, yet the amplified signal is in AC... and with only one tube per channel. I need to get my read on. It's the SET part that's throwing me.

The Force is strong with this one.

A few seconds' reflection occasioned by what your wrote will probably lead you to exclaim, "oh! Now I know why there's bias!"

... not the sociological kind or the ABX testing kind

mhardy6647

The SET circuit can be as simple as an amplifier can be. A class A preamp stage is (usually, though not always) a SET voltage amplifier. A low voltage (low power) signal comes in to the grid of a triode (e.g., one section of a 12AT7 or one section of a 6SN7), and a high voltage signal just like it (still low power) comes out.

Now, that high voltage signal can be applied to the grid of a power amplifier triode to generate a high voltage and high power signal. That signal is applied to the relatively high impedance primary winding of an output transformer, and that signal is inductively coupled to the secondary winding of the output transfomer, which results in a signal of appropriate voltage to drive a low impedance load... heh, heh, heh, that's be Mr. Voice Coil.

The DC voltages in the SET amplifier circuits do the work -- they're removed from the final product by coupling capacitors (e.g., between the voltage amplifier and the power triode) or by the magic of the output transformer. That DC plate voltage flows through the primary winding all of the time (heats it up, and makes it an electromagnet!) but, since it's DC, it doesn't make it to the secondary winding -- only the signal (music) does.

"Any suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -
Arthur C. Clarke

FestYboy

The crystal ball is looking less hazy...

Wiki is helping. Seems like you're referencing a SET with a parafeed output transformer stage?

Clipdat

Translation: It sounds really really good.

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The SET circuit can be as simple as an amplifier can be. A class A preamp stage is (usually, though not always) a SET voltage amplifier. A low voltage (low power) signal comes in to the grid of a triode (e.g., one section of a 12AT7 or one section of a 6SN7), and a high voltage signal just like it (still low power) comes out.

Now, that high voltage signal can be applied to the grid of a power amplifier triode to generate a high voltage and high power signal. That signal is applied to the relatively high impedance primary winding of an output transformer, and that signal is inductively coupled to the secondary winding of the output transfomer, which results in a signal of appropriate voltage to drive a low impedance load... heh, heh, heh, that's be Mr. Voice Coil.

The DC voltages in the SET amplifier circuits do the work -- they're removed from the final product by coupling capacitors (e.g., between the voltage amplifier and the power triode) or by the magic of the output transformer. That DC plate voltage flows through the primary winding all of the time (heats it up, and makes it an electromagnet!) but, since it's DC, it doesn't make it to the secondary winding -- only the signal (music) does.

"Any suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -
Arthur C. Clarke