50 watt amp with 5% distortion.........only $149,000. Interested?
delkal
Posts: 764
Looking at a post from the Pass lab thread there was a link to the milliandollarauto website. I started looking around and saw one tube amp, a Kagura 211monoblock for $149,000 (and not even sure if it is for one or the pair). The kagura site said how it is made from only the finest materials available (which is good) but looking at the specs it is only 50 watts (which is still OK) but the rated THD was at 5% (Huh?).
I know you can't rate an amp by the specs. You have to listen. But 5% sounds like a lot of distortion for something using the best design and materials available and I am not even factoring in the $149,000. For that price it better be 5% golden distortion that actually sounds better than live.
What am I missing?
audionote.co.jp/en/products/power_amplifier/kagura-i.html
https://higherfi.com/amplifiers/audio-note-kondo-kagura-mono
I know you can't rate an amp by the specs. You have to listen. But 5% sounds like a lot of distortion for something using the best design and materials available and I am not even factoring in the $149,000. For that price it better be 5% golden distortion that actually sounds better than live.
What am I missing?
audionote.co.jp/en/products/power_amplifier/kagura-i.html
https://higherfi.com/amplifiers/audio-note-kondo-kagura-mono
Comments
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Well -- I haven't heard that particular amp (which, at a quick glance, appears to be a parallel single-ended 211 amplifier), but:
1) Single-ended amplifiers, for better or worse, have an entirely different spectrum of distortion products than do amplifiers using the more common push-pull amplifier topology. Push-pull amps, by their design, cancel out the musical sounding even-order harmonics, leaving behind only odd-order, harsh sounding harmonics. A single ended amplifier does not. The HD of a single-ended amplifier is largely even-order.
A single-ended amplifier (tube or soiled - ahem - solid state) will sound good at 1% distortion if the distortion is predominantly second order. Conversely, a push-pull amp at 1% (or 5% or 10%) total harmonic distortion (predominantly 3rd and/or fifth order) will likely sound quite unpleasant. Yes, it is still distortion, but it is good sounding.
The reason is simple. the second order harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental. This is so-called euphonic distortion.
2) the traditional standard for hifi power ratings (well into the 1950s) was 10%. 5%, by traditional reckoning, isn't particularly high.
3) If the distortion is 5% at 50 watts, it's probably about 0.5% at 45 watts and 0.1% at 40 watts.
4) Sometimes the "cures" used to lower HD are worse than the disease (i.e., have other audible effects).
5) HARMONIC distortion isn't necessarily the kind of signal distortion that does the most audible harm. Ever hear of Matti Otala?
6) Have you heard a single-ended amplifier of any kind (tube or solid state) with a rated 5% THD?
I have listened to Gary Kaufman's single-ended 211 amplifier extensively. It is a beautifully made, and beautiful sounding amplifier.
You're missing a lot, IMO -- if all you're worried about is THD.
Just my opinions, of course -- YMMV. -
Whether that particular amplifer is worth $150k -- I can't say.
I can say I'll likely never know.
I can say that my daily driver is rated 3.5 watts per channel at 10% THD -- and it sounds superb. Again, if you've never heard a single-ended amplifier using direct-heated triode power output tubes -- you don't, IMO, know what you're missing.
There absolutely are some good sounding solid state amplifiers -- but they ain't cheap.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »Well -- I haven't heard that particular amp (which, at a quick glance, appears to be a parallel single-ended 211 amplifier), but:
1) Single-ended amplifiers, for better or worse, have an entirely different spectrum of distortion products than do amplifiers using the more common push-pull amplifier topology. Push-pull amps, by their design, cancel out the musical sounding even-order harmonics, leaving behind only odd-order, harsh sounding harmonics. A single ended amplifier does not. The HD of a single-ended amplifier is largely even-order.
A single-ended amplifier (tube or soiled - ahem - solid state) will sound good at 1% distortion if the distortion is predominantly second order. Conversely, a push-pull amp at 1% (or 5% or 10%) total harmonic distortion (predominantly 3rd and/or fifth order) will likely sound quite unpleasant. Yes, it is still distortion, but it is good sounding.
The reason is simple. the second order harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental. This is so-called euphonic distortion.
2) the traditional standard for hifi power ratings (well into the 1950s) was 10%. 5%, by traditional reckoning, isn't particularly high.
3) If the distortion is 5% at 50 watts, it's probably about 0.5% at 45 watts and 0.1% at 40 watts.
4) Sometimes the "cures" used to lower HD are worse than the disease (i.e., have other audible effects).
5) HARMONIC distortion isn't necessarily the kind of signal distortion that does the most audible harm. Ever hear of Matti Otala?
6) Have you heard a single-ended amplifier of any kind (tube or solid state) with a rated 5% THD?
I have listened to Gary Kaufman's single-ended 211 amplifier extensively. It is a beautifully made, and beautiful sounding amplifier.
You're missing a lot, IMO -- if all you're worried about is THD.
Just my opinions, of course -- YMMV.
Very good answer. Thank you!What are you missing? The sound. The 211/845 family of tubes are breathtaking and those 50 watts go MUCH further than you'd think.
The design is pretty much limited to 50 watts so the best you can do is build with the best components available to maximize the sound quality.
Does anyone else use these 211/845 tubes? Why can't they put these in s $2000 amp. Then I would seriously be interested.
I wasn't worried about the amp being 50 watts. But the watts per dollar calculation still makes my head spin. For that price I could get 3 of the Pass XS preamps and 6 of the XS monoblocks mentioned in the other thread.
Then I would really be rocking!
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http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/180769/feeler-mastersound-compact-845#latest
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2346461#Comment_2346461Post edited by marvda1 onAmplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156 -
Don’t let Joey see these. He might have an aneurysm.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Don’t let Joey see these. He might have an aneurysm.
Its worse than that..........it makes the Pass amps seem like a bargain! -
Fixed that for you.Its worse than that..........it makes the Pass amps seem like a Hello Kitty boombox!
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Urge to hear a MastersounD product RISING.Also, as far as single ended amps go, the reason they have exponential growth in price vs power is due to the high quality and beefy transformers needed to produce said power. The difference in quality between the MastersounD integrated and Shuguang separates is night and day - hence the price difference.
The Shuguang doesn't do well with 4 ohm loads but is sublime with 8 ohm loads. The MastersounD doesn't really care. It just sounds incredible either way.
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Very high plate voltages are needed for high power SET (single-ended triode).
Not only does this mean big output and power supply iron*, it also means passive components and wire that can handle maybe a kilovolt of DC. Standard goods -- won't.
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* In the traditional circuit design for single-ended vacuum tube audio amplifier, the plate voltage DC voltage goes through the output transformer primary winding. That's a tremendous added load that a push-pull output transformer doesn't have. -
Here's a photo, FWIW, of Gary Kaufman's aforementioned DIY 211 amp and its power supply.
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Heck no, 150$K for amps is way too much. Nothing is worth that much for just amps.Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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Why? If you had tons of money and $150k was actually equivalent to about $15k in your world, then you know you would buy them just to try them out!Heck no, 150$K for amps is way too much. Nothing is worth that much for just amps.
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Why? If you had tons of money and $150k was actually equivalent to about $15k in your world, then you know you would buy them just to try them out!
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I think Joey is much smarter than you give him credit for.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I'll bite....
Just my opinion.
A lot of high end is built on fugazi. It depends on exclusivity and rarity and the throughput of the factory. If it's a factory that cranks < 10 amps per year, you're gonna be charged a huge premium versus if a company like Cary were building a product and just churning them out.
I have heard a lot of high end product. I can tell you they are not worth the money they are charging. No way is the sound quality I'm getting from the Wel speaker wire worth the $31,000 that Magnolia is charging. Nor is the Boulder worth the $50,000 they are charging. Or the Emm being $30,000 for the stack? Nah.
Are they good? Yes for sure. Is there a difference between that and lower priced products? From my experience, yes.
Example - the Directstream is good, at $12K retail. But the Emm is better. But 12K vs 30K? It's not a gulf of a difference, no.
These sky rocket pricing is so inflated, but that does not mean there is not a market for it. I can tell you if you were independently wealthy, have passive income where you don't have to lift a finger, or trust funded - of course, $150K on an amp, $250K on speakers.... that's just play money.
But I don't believe it makes it worth it. Then again, I don't play in that game or level, so I'm not sure how they might see it.
Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R -
I'm with Joey on this... At those $ levels and above, I would hope that the measured spec (at normal listening levels, especially for an amp) are all the same, so spending multiple times more to achieve the same result seems like quite the waste. I would even venture to say that after a certain point, any perceived change in sound is nothing more than placebo effect.
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... I would even venture to say that after a certain point, any perceived change in sound is nothing more than placebo effect.
True for all components, would you say?
Cables?
Loudspeakers?
Fuses?
PS I am kind of playing Devil's advocate here. There is nothing wrong with having an inconsistent worldview. Remember what Emerson wrote:A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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I agree completely Doc.
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I'm with Joey on this... At those $ levels and above, I would hope that the measured spec (at normal listening levels, especially for an amp) are all the same, so spending multiple times more to achieve the same result seems like quite the waste. I would even venture to say that after a certain point, any perceived change in sound is nothing more than placebo effect.
And here I thought you knew something about audio. Just goes to show I can be wrong.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Just to be clear: I would expect those amplifiers to be marvelous -- given what I've heard from amplifiers of similar design ethic at, probably, about a fifth of the cost. Mostly DIY, in the case of what I've heard.
I have long struggled with the "reverse snobbism" personality trait that is rampant at some forums (I won't mention any names -- but I have over 50k posts at one of them!) -- true confession is good for the soul.
And, FWIW, I got over "specs" as any sort of indicator of sound quality (with some very limited exceptions) by the 1980s.
YMMV, though, of course.
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I'm with Joey on this... At those $ levels and above, I would hope that the measured spec (at normal listening levels, especially for an amp) are all the same, so spending multiple times more to achieve the same result seems like quite the waste. I would even venture to say that after a certain point, any perceived change in sound is nothing more than placebo effect.
And here I thought you knew something about audio. Just goes to show I can be wrong.
Really Jesse, please read that again, there are a few key words that make a huge difference in my statement. Granted I should have stated that I'm not talking about speakers (at all). Doc seems to know what I'm getting at. -
I think the Doc and I are on the same page.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Carp! Doc mentioned speakers and I completely glazed over that.
Anyway, the point I was try to get at is the idea that any component between the media and speakers should never impart anything into or detract anything from the original signal. I get that there are always concessions and limitations due to cost and design and components. But when you jump to the realm of 6 figure pieces, I would expect the in ins and outs would look the same on a scope, or at least insanely close. I mean, isn't that the goal? -
I always thought the goal was to make the reproduced sound as close as possible to live.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I always thought the goal was to make the reproduced sound as close as possible to live.
To breath life into the sound produced by inanimate objects and machines, such that when you close your eyes, it becomes absolutely possible that the sound you hear are made by a live performance in your listening space.
That is the goal.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I always thought the goal was to make the reproduced sound as close as possible to live.
If the performance was recorded to reflect that "in the room with you" sound, then yes, but it has to be recorded/mastered that way first. -
I had a moment of this the other night while listening to a well recorded jazz SACD. It was great.nooshinjohn wrote: »To breath life into the sound produced by inanimate objects and machines, such that when you close your eyes, it becomes absolutely possible that the sound you hear are made by a live performance in your listening space.
That is the goal.
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Ok so now I'm confused, why do we do this again? To modify what the artist/producer/engineer originally intended? Quality equipment should never do that.
*Edit for autocorrectPost edited by FestYboy on -
The premise that a given piece of gear doesn't modify, to one degree or the other, the original recorded sound is seriously flawed.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
