Denon HEOS

mantis

Hello everyone,
I'm currently rocking a full house audio system with Sonos. I find it to be fantastic and has been for years. Sonos is the leading multi Room audio system but Denon came out with the HEOS and I'm gonna try it out.
Does anyone Rock HEOS now? I know many of you Rock Sonos.

andrew82

I'm going to be spending a few weeks in a house wired with Heos in June. I'll circle back to you with my impressions. The gear seems to be legit.

tonyb

I've played with them at My local BestBuy, like my Sonos better. Not sure if the Heos is capable to be incorporated into regular stereo systems with digital outputs. I know it has Ethernet though.

Seems to me they market Heos the same way as Bose did, a reason to dump all your stereo gear for the smaller more convenient stuff. HEOS even has a wireless HT receiver, not much power to it's class D amps or a variety of connections but it was meant to work with other Heos speakers. Probably good for apartment dwellers, but like many of these small speaker systems, they fall short compared to real stereo/HT gear.

tonyb

Yes and no Skip, Heos has complete systems too just like Sonos does, meant to work with that software.

Can you incorporate the Helos software so that it works without a receiver ? Do any of the separate components have digital outputs ? That would be a game changer if they didn't.

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tonyb

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

I did a Yahoo search on Denon Heos and got "Denon vs. Sonos" and a page of products available at Amazon. The Heos speakers look surprisingly similar to the Sonos. Yamaha has its Musicast and Oppo has Sonica. It would be great if all these similar products used a compatible, interchangeable wireless standard.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/sonos-vs-denon-heos/

If they did, not much else would set them apart other than some software things. Sonos has the edge on the software part in my book. So easy a caveman can do it is an understatement.

mantis

The only reason I want to give it a go is it plays High Rez files where Sonos does not.
I asked Sonos many times over the years to build a High Rez player and they refuse to do so. They said it takes up to much bandwidth. With todays network abilities, I can't see any reason not to be able to stream high rez.
I don't know if there will be any benefit streaming high rez files with in ceiling , In wall and Outdoor speakers which is what I use all around my house. But in the Family Room where I have my main system I'm hoping it sounds as good as when I use my computer over USB.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

The only reason I want to give it a go is it plays High Rez files where Sonos does not.
I asked Sonos many times over the years to build a High Rez player and they refuse to do so. They said it takes up to much bandwidth. With todays network abilities, I can't see any reason not to be able to stream high rez.
I don't know if there will be any benefit streaming high rez files with in ceiling , In wall and Outdoor speakers which is what I use all around my house. But in the Family Room where I have my main system I'm hoping it sounds as good as when I use my computer over USB.

I hear ya on that. Don't know why Sonos is so adamant about it. Could be the bandwidth issue won't play well with their own wifi grid.....I dunno. My modded Sonos box can play 24/96 files but that's it. I've not been up to date on the any new mods for the Sonos, maybe someone has done it for higher rez, not sure, but I know they aren't cheap.

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tonyb

Most of these small cheaper wireless devices are for casual listening. However, with some you have the ability to hook up external dacs which take them to a new level over their mediocre built in ones. I use my Sonos with a Cary dac and get some pretty darn good results.

I don't think I would rely on any of the dacs with these cheaper wireless devices. They sound OK enough for casual listening, but when you want more....you have to go external dac.

I haven't done too much research on the Heos, but I'm hoping they at least have some digital outputs on some of their devices. Otherwise, your locked in to the sound you get.

I wouldn't use Sonos speakers, or Heos speakers, or any similar products speakers for anything other than casual listening. They aren't made for more than that in my view. I tried Sonos speakers, sent them back, didn't like them even for casual listening. I just use their box with my dac and pre, speakers. Heos as far as I can tell, doesn't have a stand alone streaming box, so I'm not sure how compatible it is with regular stereo gear. Unless I missed something on my quick searches....

DSD is just like SACD, you don't need a top flight system to hear the benefits. However, on small speakers like with Sonos or Heos, you may not be that impressed playing higher rez files.

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mantis

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Does Polk have any streaming speakers, besides their wireless subs and soundbars? The Sonos PLAY:5 Ultimate Wireless Smart Speaker for Streaming Music at Amazon lists for $499 each and their wireless sub is $699. This is a lot of money to spend just for average sound. Their bottom line speaker is Sonos PLAY:1 and costs $200.

If I was in the market for multi-zone in home, the cost of the Sonos gear is enough to make me do research on other multi-zone options and go slow before jumping off the Sonos cliff. But not just the cost, I would at least want decent sounding bookshelf speakers for the money Sonos asks. Sonos is selling ease of implementation and operation. They remind me of the home theater in a box set-ups.

Sonos equipment does not sound average. For the money they are extremely nice. The Speakers are from the engineers that use to work for Velodyne. The Sub is fantastic as well as all the Play models including the sound bar. It sounds amazing for the $699 asking retail price. I find nothing wrong with it or anything else sounding better for that kind of money.

My Multi room audio uses Sonos Connects for sources only. I have Niles, Elan and Integra amps powering my house speakers which are all in wall in ceiling outdoor Polk speakers and 1 pair of B&W LM1's paired with a Polk subwoofer.
Back when my house was being built, I wired the entire house in Monster cable speaker wire. My Main room was re wired with audioquest and I may one day re wire the entire house with audioquest speaker wire if I decide to put in higher end speakers. The polk / monster cable combo works very well and my house all rooms sound great.

The HEOS really may only go into my main system and may not become the sources for the house system. Unless I really love the way Denon did the HEOS, Sonos will stay.
I have talked to many people in our industry and they say the HEOS is awesome and much better then Sonos. I don't buy that and thats why I like to test this stuff myself.
Sonos is IMO the Ultimate full house audio system. The Connect is the source for each room or group of room if you will depending on how you configure your amps.
I use a combo of Multi channel amps and 2 channel amps. I have 7 zones plus my main room which technically makes it 8.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

The only reason I want to give it a go is it plays High Rez files where Sonos does not.
I asked Sonos many times over the years to build a High Rez player and they refuse to do so. They said it takes up to much bandwidth. With todays network abilities, I can't see any reason not to be able to stream high rez.
I don't know if there will be any benefit streaming high rez files with in ceiling , In wall and Outdoor speakers which is what I use all around my house. But in the Family Room where I have my main system I'm hoping it sounds as good as when I use my computer over USB.

I hear ya on that. Don't know why Sonos is so adamant about it. Could be the bandwidth issue won't play well with their own wifi grid.....I dunno. My modded Sonos box can play 24/96 files but that's it. I've not been up to date on the any new mods for the Sonos, maybe someone has done it for higher rez, not sure, but I know they aren't cheap.

I never looked into modding any of my Sonos Connects. Cool idea as that would really be nice.
Sonos does what Sonos wants to do. We have been asking them to make a chassis Sonos unit that can power 6 rooms. A 12 channel internal amp and 6 Sonos connects in one chassis. They refuse to build it as we would sell the hell out of it.
So what we do is just sell Connects for each room or group of rooms and add multi channel amps to power each set of speakers. Group rooms would get in wall volume controls old school style and signal rooms you would use the Sonos app to control volume. I prefer to have a Connect for each room so you don't have to walk over to the wall to change volume.
My house I wired with in wall volume controls so I group my main rooms together and have to go to the wall to change volume. I plan on changing that one day but it's not that big of deal. When we use the system the volume usually doesn't change as I have all the rooms set to a very comfortably level. Party mode or jamming mode I may crank up a few rooms.

tonyb

Sonos speakers are not like those HT in a box speakers, they sound better than that. Not as good as a dedicated bookshelf system though in my view. I'm sure Heos is comparable.

What I like about the Sonos is you don't have to use their speakers. Use any speakers you want, any electronics you want. You can group zones together or play separate songs in each zone from one controller or app. at the same time. For versatility, ease of use, it's hard to beat.

If you have a negative reaction to speaker wire though, the wireless speaker option may work for you. Possibly if you have a hard place to set up speakers with wires too, like a Kitchen.

mantis

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Some of the software will down sample to 24/96. That may or may not defeat the purpose of doing DSD or other ultra high res files. 24/96 is the highest MS Windows goes as plug and play. Beyond that special drivers are needed. The Sonos speakers may not sound any better beyond 24/96.

For DSD to be effective, does the entire audio chain need to be premium equipment and speakers? Is DSD best with premium gear and a listening room set up for critical listening? The Sonos would be great for home filling background and mood music. IF Sonos beats FM radio, or is at least as good, many would be OK with that quality sound level. People using Sonos may not be after an ultimate sound experience. They may only want to achieve an excellent, home filling sound.

I don't know if it's going to be important to me or not. I like the way my house system sounds now running 16/44.1 and some 256k stuff from iTunes as I have Apple music and use it a lot for house music. It's pretty awesome for that job and I get to listen to stuff before I purchase it. I like to buy higher rez stuff then what Apple provides and I still buy CD's LOL and then rip them into my Music Library. I don't spin them hardly never.
I also have SACD and DVD audio disc's that I will occasionally listen to to but when I do that, I just use them in my main room on my best speakers. The house speakers I don't think will do it any justice but once I try out HEOS , that opinion may or may not change.

woodhead 2

When I bought my Marantz I received a HEOS Link SRE3 with it. Haven't hooked it up yet.

mantis

DSkip wrote: »

Sonos is a software as well with a full array of products designed specifically for the software. The difference is HEOS is no longer just for those 'specific products'. Since all new Denon and Marantz receivers (as far as I know) are getting HEOS built into them, this makes the software more versatile.

Denon and many other companies designed competing products to go against Sonos and offer them at lower prices. HEOS now has something the others do not - full integration into a home theater/main listening area without adding another piece to the mix.

We don'e actively sell Denon or Marantz receivers but could as they are apart of our buying group. We sell mostly Integra and some Sony ES stuff. Sony ES may take a larger roll in our receiver sales.
I'm really hoping Sony makes Seperates again as they where fantastic back in the day.

mantis

OK,
So I got a HEO's preamp which if it was a Sonos it would be called a Connect.
For a completely fair compare to Sonos I only played 16/44.1 stuff.
Compared to Sonos the HEOS has a smoothness to it. Also to make it fair I'm comparing the internal DAC's on both units as I usually use Sonos Digital Coax out. This way I'm removing my Sabre DAC's I usually use on Sonos and both units are using their internal DAC's.
The HEOS vs Sonos is a very close compare people. It's just the HEOS sounds a bit smoother, it's how I want to explain it. It's like it's more gentle and graceful where the Sonos has a few ruff edges to the sound. I could say the Sonos might have a slighty cheaper DAC internally but I have no idea what either one is using. For all I know they could use the same exact chip set and it's the output stage on the Denon that is of better quality. Not sure but I think I like the HEOS so far a bit better.
I'm gonna use Digital coax for me next test then Optical for the Coax vs Optical crowd which just so you know when both cables are of equality quality there is absolutely no sound quality difference at all. Both Digital transfers work perfectly when you use high quality cables. The only time I ever head a difference is when I used some cheaper made cables which I chalk up to the fact they where not passing the full digital signal and was losing something. Other then that I would either on in any of my systems but I'm a cable nut so I will test both.

mantis

Finally got around to pumping some High rez stuff on a Flash drive USB and stuck it in the HEOS. With using the internal DAC it doesn't quite give you that life air and black between the notes. It sounds good overall but it seems to lack the luster.
So I ran a Audioquest Digital Coax cable to my SC-99 which uses Sabre Internal DAC's per channel and BAM a lot of the magic I'm use to hearing when playing High Rez Stuff came back. So at this point the HEOS is just a transport.

The HEOS doesn't play Apple Music which I think I already mentioned. This isn't a wise decision by Denon as many have Apple Music and love it. But for me personally I have Sonos and I can use Sonos for that duty.

I don't think HEOS is a whole house solution for many people out there. But I do think it can fit the bill for many others. It's a nice product and for the money for a high rez streamer it's perfectly fine. Even using its internal DAC's for High rez stuff isn't bad if you had to use them.

The App isn't on the same level as Sonos but it's nice enough that one who doesn't use Sonos wouldn't feel it's lacking anything. It's fine.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

So at this point the HEOS is just a transport.
.

Mirrors my own opinions on the matter. The internal dacs of these small digital devices are ok for casual listening, but hook them up to a better dac and the sound improves greatly.

mantis

Quick update on the HEOS

I talked to our Rep about why the decision was made not to have Apple Music. He said they have been working on that deal and it's their #1 priority right now. So we should expect by the summer to have Apple Music on HEOS. This is a big deal for me as I use this service to preview Albums before I buy and I use it as my streaming service for back ground music around the house currently with Sonos.
If and when this deal happens I may switch totally over to HEOS. Today I'm gonna hook HEOS up to my House system and see what kind of Improvements I can get there. I don't have external DAC's for my house system but using In wall, In ceiling , on wall and Outdoor speakers( Mostly Polk except 1 pair of B&W's in my basement) I think I can get away with the internal DAC's in the HEOS.
I'm currently very happy with Sonos except the fact it doesn't allow me to listen to my High Rez stuff. I'm still on the fence about this as I do have a limited amount of High rez stuff, only stuff I want to take time , sit down and listen with wine , Beer and a mood change etc. Sonos plays 16/44.1 with it's internal DAC very well so I guess maybe having HEOS also in my House system I may want to buy more high rez stuff instead of being so selective with it.

Do any of you pump High rez stuff into your house systems? What I mean by House system is this is my Music all around my house system. It consists of multi channel amps and Sonos Preamps. I also have a Sonos in my main system so I can add it into the House system for party mode, cleaning mode or working around the house times.

tonyb

I don't pump hi-rez into mine. It's kinda wasted on outdoor speakers where you really can't hear the benefits as well as on your main system. That's why 16/44 works for whole house systems, usually the speakers and associated gear used for whole house applications are not exactly the best at complimenting higher rez.

I can understand why some would want to though. Having all your music in one library and being able to play it anywhere is attractive. You don't have to keep the higher rez stuff separate from the cd quality stuff.