Nippon Chemicon or Nichicon?

xschop

I opened up my Akai to do an LED upgrade and found a couple leaky caps in what tha manual describes as power supply board.
After reading up, Im not sure if I should go back with originals or get Nichicon FG brand.... I figure I might as well do the Mains also since they are originals?
As usual opinions and experience appreciated....

txcoastal1

KenS or uncle Jesse would probably have the best answers on that one

daddyjt

The brand of caps in the power supply will have no affect on sound quality, as long as they are speced correctly. Pay particular attention to ESR.

Also, watch sizing, as the original size may no longer be produced. As long as you have it on the bench, I would do a full recap and calibration. If a couple caps are leaking, it's a safe bet that others are on their way too.

Luicas

for power supply caps, i've tried United Chemicon SMH series, with excellent results. These are low ESR and high ripple current. be sure to match or best your current caps' voltage and temp rating. And checkout for diameter and height... And don't go bigger (uF) unless your amp has inrush current protection. Otherwise, you'll probably burn something up when powering up....

for all the signal path caps, nichicon, elna, or panasonic. can't remember which series for these brands, but just filter your search specifying audio types. Your main limitation will be the available size that fits your application. (lead spacing, height, diameter). For the specified capacitance, voltage and temp, I always choose the physically largest cap I can fit.

I would do all the caps, not just the PS. And a complete solder reflow for the rest of the components.

heiney9

......

pitdogg2

If using any Elna make sure they are silmic II's or cerafine. Others use a very corrosive electrolytic that will eat boards and traces straight through. Go ahead ask me how I know.

My .02 stick with nichicon or the above Elna's.

F1nut

I have disagree with daddy jt on the power supply caps thing.

Nichicon FG or KA would be an excellent choice for those smaller values as would Elna Silmic II. For the filter caps I prefer Mundorf M-Lytic.

xschop

I'll be taking F1's advice on FG or KA Nichicon.
Also to be clear, following Luicas advice, it is OK to go larger Voltages, but same uF ONLY in power grids but keep factory values everywhere else?

The two large capacitors in the bottom left are marked 10,000uF @ 50v

heiney9

F1nut wrote: »

I have disagree with daddy jt on the power supply caps thing.

Nichicon FG or KA would be an excellent choice for those smaller values as would Elna Silmic II. For the filter caps I prefer Mundorf M-Lytic.

Yep, I disagree also. There are audible differences, perhaps not as dramatic as signal path caps.

Also Panasonic FC and Muse are excellent in addition to what F1 listed.

H9

heiney9

Interesting article.....test.....

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html

daddyjt

In my response to the OP, I was providing advice based on sound (pun) physical principals. The capacitors in the power supply of an amplifier cannot have an impact, positive or negative, on the sonic charastics of that amplifier, provided that they are of proper specification and functioning correctly.

By definition, the power supply provides voltage and current to the gain stages of the amplifier, period. No sonic characteristics are imparted in the power supply. If you think, or perceive, a sonic improvement with "audio grade" capacitors, more power to you (pun again).

There is something to be said for higher end capacitors in the gain stages, but at the end of the day, most of those benefits come from tighter tolerances and resistance to heat, and not exotic materials or designs.

F1nut

xschop wrote: »

I'll be taking F1's advice on FG or KA Nichicon.
Also to be clear, following Luicas advice, it is OK to go larger Voltages, but same uF ONLY in power grids but keep factory values everywhere else?

The two large capacitors in the bottom left are marked 10,000uF @ 50v

Yes, you can go higher on the voltage.

These are excellent, scroll down to the 10,000uF/63V. http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_mundorf_plugin.html

If at all possible get Elna Silmic II caps for the signal path. As indicated in the link Brock posted, they are very nice.

K_M

daddyjt wrote: »

In my response to the OP, I was providing advice based on sound (pun) physical principals. The capacitors in the power supply of an amplifier cannot have an impact, positive or negative, on the sonic charastics of that amplifier, provided that they are of proper specification and functioning correctly.

By definition, the power supply provides voltage and current to the gain stages of the amplifier, period. No sonic characteristics are imparted in the power supply. If you think, or perceive, a sonic improvement with "audio grade" capacitors, more power to you (pun again).

There is something to be said for higher end capacitors in the gain stages, but at the end of the day, most of those benefits come from tighter tolerances and resistance to heat, and not exotic materials or designs.

At the end of the day, some will believe anything.
Just how human nature works.
Some prey on human natures ability to see changes in everything.

txcoastal1

K_M wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

In my response to the OP, I was providing advice based on sound (pun) physical principals. The capacitors in the power supply of an amplifier cannot have an impact, positive or negative, on the sonic charastics of that amplifier, provided that they are of proper specification and functioning correctly.

By definition, the power supply provides voltage and current to the gain stages of the amplifier, period. No sonic characteristics are imparted in the power supply. If you think, or perceive, a sonic improvement with "audio grade" capacitors, more power to you (pun again).

There is something to be said for higher end capacitors in the gain stages, but at the end of the day, most of those benefits come from tighter tolerances and resistance to heat, and not exotic materials or designs.

At the end of the day, some will believe anything.
Just how human nature works.
Some prey on human natures ability to see changes in everything.

https://youtu.be/BdIev12fCPs

[Deleted User]

"By definition, the power supply provides voltage and current to the gain stages of the amplifier, period. No sonic characteristics are imparted in the power supply. If you think, or perceive, a sonic improvement with "audio grade" capacitors, more power to you (pun again)."
This view point is definitely not shared by the majority of high end audio companies nor people who have attained a reputation for building better sounding audio components. The power supply and its components become part of the complete sound produced by the signal processing circuitry. This is why some companies, such as conrad-johnson, will eliminate any electrolytic capacitors in their ART preamp. Believe me they wouldn't go to that expense if they didn't think it made a difference and this is just one small example.

daddyjt

With all due respect, the majority of audio companies do not use "high end" capacitors in the power supply - especially the filter caps. Further, most of the very large filter caps in high power amplifiers are not even available in esoteric "audio grade" designations.

Eliminating electrolytics in a pre amp is relatively easy, as preamps have few of them to begin with. And I suspect they do this because film and poly caps tend to have a much lower tolerance rating, vs electrolytics.

I will not presume to determine what you can and cannot hear in an amplifier. What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier, provided the power supply is producing the required voltage and current, with no (under spec) ripple.

F1nut

Further, most of the very large filter caps in high power amplifiers are not even available in esoteric "audio grade" designations.

A good number of higher end, high powered amps use banks of small value power supply caps these days instead of the coke cans for two reasons. One because as you stated and they found audio grade caps do make a positive difference. The other is they found a bank of small caps perform better than a few large ones.

daddyjt

F1nut wrote: »

Further, most of the very large filter caps in high power amplifiers are not even available in esoteric "audio grade" designations.

A good number of higher end, high powered amps use banks of small value power supply caps these days instead of the coke cans for two reasons. One because as you stated and they found audio grade caps do make a positive difference. The other is they found a bank of small caps perform better than a few large ones.

Agreed on the bank of smaller caps - it is also easier to achieve a MUCH lower ESR that way. It is also a very viable option when restoring older amplifiers, where the original filter caps are no longer available (re 9300uf 160v for the Silver 7t/9t).

pitdogg2

daddyjt wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Further, most of the very large filter caps in high power amplifiers are not even available in esoteric "audio grade" designations.

A good number of higher end, high powered amps use banks of small value power supply caps these days instead of the coke cans for two reasons. One because as you stated and they found audio grade caps do make a positive difference. The other is they found a bank of small caps perform better than a few large ones.

Agreed on the bank of smaller caps - it is also easier to achieve a MUCH lower ESR that way. It is also a very viable option when restoring older amplifiers, where the original filter caps are no longer available (re 9300uf 160v for the Silver 7t/9t).

Or my TFM 45. This is exactly what Roland did for mine. From my understanding it was well researched by Bob C. Smaller but much better caps which exceeded the big sausages Bob originally used.

K_M

txcoastal1 wrote: »

K_M wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

In my response to the OP, I was providing advice based on sound (pun) physical principals. The capacitors in the power supply of an amplifier cannot have an impact, positive or negative, on the sonic charastics of that amplifier, provided that they are of proper specification and functioning correctly.

By definition, the power supply provides voltage and current to the gain stages of the amplifier, period. No sonic characteristics are imparted in the power supply. If you think, or perceive, a sonic improvement with "audio grade" capacitors, more power to you (pun again).

There is something to be said for higher end capacitors in the gain stages, but at the end of the day, most of those benefits come from tighter tolerances and resistance to heat, and not exotic materials or designs.

At the end of the day, some will believe anything.
Just how human nature works.
Some prey on human natures ability to see changes in everything.

https://youtu.be/BdIev12fCPs

Sorry, before my time...

Nightfall

Irrelevant, you know who Mighty Mouse is and that's all that matters.

heiney9

daddyjt wrote: »

I will not presume to determine what you can and cannot hear in an amplifier. What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier, provided the power supply is producing the required voltage and current, with no (under spec) ripple.

Sorry I disagree and have experienced different sonic characteristics. Not say you will with every piece of gear every time when changing electrolytics in a PS.

As an aside, why is it when I switch voltage rectifying tubes (exact same spec in the circuit) in a tube pre or amp and it has a very different sonic signature? According to your above statement, if it's the same rectifier spec, then how could that be?

Ever heard the difference between a Mullard GZ34 and Russian GZ34 rectifier? The difference in sonic characteristics can be heard by anyone.

H9

heiney9

Also what about a switching walwart power supply vs. a dedicated linear power supply. The later was clearly the better performer by way of my ears. Again asking based on your statement below ;

What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier

Both power supplies were within spec, the linear one sounded better by a pretty good margin.

H9

xschop

My threads always turn into mayhem...but
I learn alot from you guys' bickering.

Ordered FG for power supply board and KG for two mains in 80v... There was not FG in that size.

I did make some progress as my T10 LED sockets showed up and we are now modernized in the lighting dept.

heiney9

Nah, no bickering just difference's in experiences. Anytime you refresh an older piece w/newer, better parts.......it's going be a good thing.

H9

daddyjt

heiney9 wrote: »

As an aside, why is it when I switch voltage rectifying tubes (exact same spec in the circuit) in a tube pre or amp and it has a very different sonic signature? According to your above statement, if it's the same rectifier spec, then how could that be?

Ever heard the difference between a Mullard GZ34 and Russian GZ34 rectifier? The difference in sonic characteristics can be heard by anyone.

H9

I have no interest in tubes (no disrespect to tube enthusiasts, they just don't do it for me), and I have little to no experience with them - so no, I have never heard the difference between a Mullard GZ34 and Russian GZ34 rectifier. However, I do know that there are significant differences between tube and solid state topology, so I cannot say with certainty that your comparison is accurate.

heiney9

But your statement stands whether it's tubes or solid state. You said;

What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier


It doesn't matter what the semiconductors are, you are saying there is no audible link between a power supply and sonic characteristics.

Would you address my example of a walwart switching PS vs. a dedicated linear supply that both supply the proper spec to the same unit, yet sound much different?

heiney9

Also fast recovery diodes play a role in the power supply and can influence the sonic characteristics. I installed discrete voltage regulators in the PS of a unit replacing I/C based regulators and there was a sonic benefit.

How can this be, if ;

What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier

H9

heiney9

The largest cost of a high end components is the power supply section, so if your statement is fact

What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier


Why would they spend all that money on the power supply section. This is especially true for digital playback gear like DAC's and CDp's, etc.

H9

daddyjt

heiney9 wrote: »

Also what about a switching walwart power supply vs. a dedicated linear power supply. The later was clearly the better performer by way of my ears. Again asking based on your statement below ;

What I can tell you, it's that from a physics standpoint, there is no audible link between the power supply and the sonic charachteristics of an amplifier

Both power supplies were within spec, the linear one sounded better by a pretty good margin.

H9

This is not a valid comparison. Switching and linear power supplies operate in different manners. It is well known that switching power supplies create noise, which in the case of powering a laptop or cell phone charger is not an issue, but in the case of audio (especially line level signals), it can have a detrimental affect. This is most likely the sonic improvement you experienced, elimination of interference and noise.

Again, I will not stipulate what you can, and cannot hear. If it sounds better to you, great - that's all that matters. My advice to the OP was rooted in physics and the electrical principals of amplifier design, and the interest of not having him or her spend additional money on parts that will not yield a measurable sonic improvement.

heiney9

Except you stated a very definitive fact about power supplies. You didn't specifically say what type, you inferred "all". Now you're saying they are different designs, etc, etc........so there is an audible link based on the power supply. A poor design yields poorer sound vs, a well designed one that yields better sound.