How Important is Imaging to You?

K_M

rednedtugent wrote: »

^^^ I wouldn't disagree but you make it sound as if all music is recorded
live in the studio. To your point though, Quad mixes do sound different
than stereo mixes of the same LP thru non SDA type speakers.

Yes, do not want to come off like I dislike the effect, but I think it is very hit or miss.

When they mix and master the music they are using non SDA speakers, and as a result everything mixed is exaggerated on an SDA speaker. If they employed SDA speakers to mix and master ANY recording it would then follow through at the home listening point and be an accurate portrayal to some extent.
As is, I see it as an exaggerated effect, that can be very fun, very pleasant, but never truly accurate to what they intended. (unless they mixed on SDA speakers)

mhardy6647

Coaxes, boys and girls. Coaxes.

heiney9

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo. It was a contrived way to make music sound more realistic. SDA's are a closer approximation to real life. If you research both methods in depth, you will agree.

Neither is going to recreate or substitute for a real life event, but stereo is horribly flawed in that regard.

H9

[Deleted User]

you may be on to something...

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Coaxes, boys and girls. Coaxes.

[Deleted User]

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo. It was a contrived way to make music sound more realistic. SDA's are a closer approximation to real life. If you research both methods in depth, you will agree.

Neither is going to recreate or substitute for a real life event, but stereo is horribly flawed in that regard.

I see your point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLUEMj6cwA

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo.
H9

I dunno about that Brock. Place one hand over your left ear while listening and tell me stereo is flawed.

Stereo is by nature 2.....2 speakers, 2 ears. Most every concert I go to has speakers on the left of the stage and the right. They don't employ sda technologies either in concert or the recording studio.

Live music that uses no speakers at all, is much more dependent on room reflections and a stereo pair of ears. Examples would be a single piano in a concert hall or a Sax in a Jazz club. Listening to horns 6 feet away live is surreal to me and nothing I'm aware of can reproduce that. We don't hear as a single point source because we have stereo ears.

If anything is flawed, it's probably our hearing and ability to listen or even know what we are listening for. Our own individual flaws is what plays into our preferences. That's why some think MP3's and hi-rez recordings have little to no differences, cables don't matter, all amps sound the same.

The great thing about audio in general is that nothing is written in stone and we have great leeway to adjust our sound to match our preferences/flaws....and a variety of gear available to help us all on that journey. Bottom line here is....just enjoy your music how you see fit.

[Deleted User]

Not to mention low frequency waves reach the head "at the same time."
I defy you to pick out a problem w/ bass waves.

mhardy6647

DSkip wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Coaxes, boys and girls. Coaxes.

My experience with coaxials, at least in the Tannoy world:

*move head 1" to right*

"Where'd the soundstage go?"

More like six inches for the Duplexes

[Deleted User]

leaves me on the outside listening in...

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo.
H9

I dunno about that Brock. Place one hand over your left ear while listening and tell me stereo is flawed.

Stereo is by nature 2.....2 speakers, 2 ears. Most every concert I go to has speakers on the left of the stage and the right. They don't employ sda technologies either in concert or the recording studio.

Live music that uses no speakers at all, is much more dependent on room reflections and a stereo pair of ears. Examples would be a single piano in a concert hall or a Sax in a Jazz club. Listening to horns 6 feet away live is surreal to me and nothing I'm aware of can reproduce that. We don't hear as a single point source because we have stereo ears.

If anything is flawed, it's probably our hearing and ability to listen or even know what we are listening for. Our own individual flaws is what plays into our preferences. That's why some think MP3's and hi-rez recordings have little to no differences, cables don't matter, all amps sound the same.

The great thing about audio in general is that nothing is written in stone and we have great leeway to adjust our sound to match our preferences/flaws....and a variety of gear available to help us all on that journey. Bottom line here is....just enjoy your music how you see fit.

I disagree.

Do some research about hearing and stereo reproduction, you'll see what I mean about how contrived it is. Pay particular attention to how a stereo signal is created, it's false, nothing in nature or the natural world is "Stereo". We don't just hear in stereo despite only having two ears. If we did we be hit by cars, not able to hear conversation's, have very low reception of audio cues in the world around us.

SDA's were created to try and take very flawed Stereo and make it more realistic, still not close, but better as it solves some the stereo's inherent flaws.

H9

Stereo is just like 3D in movies. It's a contrived method to try a recreate a realistic event and both fail compared to real thing.

heiney9

All that said, I enjoy music and my rig immensely and imaging is a big part of that.

H9

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo.
H9

I dunno about that Brock. Place one hand over your left ear while listening and tell me stereo is flawed.

Stereo is by nature 2.....2 speakers, 2 ears. Most every concert I go to has speakers on the left of the stage and the right. They don't employ sda technologies either in concert or the recording studio.

Live music that uses no speakers at all, is much more dependent on room reflections and a stereo pair of ears. Examples would be a single piano in a concert hall or a Sax in a Jazz club. Listening to horns 6 feet away live is surreal to me and nothing I'm aware of can reproduce that. We don't hear as a single point source because we have stereo ears.

If anything is flawed, it's probably our hearing and ability to listen or even know what we are listening for. Our own individual flaws is what plays into our preferences. That's why some think MP3's and hi-rez recordings have little to no differences, cables don't matter, all amps sound the same.

The great thing about audio in general is that nothing is written in stone and we have great leeway to adjust our sound to match our preferences/flaws....and a variety of gear available to help us all on that journey. Bottom line here is....just enjoy your music how you see fit.

SDA's were created to try and take very flawed Stereo and make it more realistic, still not close, but better as it solves some the stereo's inherent flaws.

H9

Stereo is just like 3D in movies. It's a contrived method to try a recreate a realistic event and both fail compared to real thing.

Think the other way around actually.....
Would not SDA be comparable to 3D in movies?
It is artificially widening the sound, beyond what was intended.

Stereo speakers are what they utilized to make the recording in the mixing room, and we play recordings back on stereo speakers.

If they had used SDA speakers as the mixing speakers true, they would be much more ideal. But as is, stereo flawed or not, is at least trying to do what was intended.
Like it or not ( I like the effect!) SDA is adding an addition change to the music, and overall sound.
Same as adding surround speakers or ambiance effects, and saying they are more accurate.

Msabot1

Interesting that nobody has mentioned Ambisonics in this thread.....

heiney9

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo.
H9

I dunno about that Brock. Place one hand over your left ear while listening and tell me stereo is flawed.

Stereo is by nature 2.....2 speakers, 2 ears. Most every concert I go to has speakers on the left of the stage and the right. They don't employ sda technologies either in concert or the recording studio.

Live music that uses no speakers at all, is much more dependent on room reflections and a stereo pair of ears. Examples would be a single piano in a concert hall or a Sax in a Jazz club. Listening to horns 6 feet away live is surreal to me and nothing I'm aware of can reproduce that. We don't hear as a single point source because we have stereo ears.

If anything is flawed, it's probably our hearing and ability to listen or even know what we are listening for. Our own individual flaws is what plays into our preferences. That's why some think MP3's and hi-rez recordings have little to no differences, cables don't matter, all amps sound the same.

The great thing about audio in general is that nothing is written in stone and we have great leeway to adjust our sound to match our preferences/flaws....and a variety of gear available to help us all on that journey. Bottom line here is....just enjoy your music how you see fit.

SDA's were created to try and take very flawed Stereo and make it more realistic, still not close, but better as it solves some the stereo's inherent flaws.

H9

Stereo is just like 3D in movies. It's a contrived method to try a recreate a realistic event and both fail compared to real thing. It aims to solve a natural acoustic phenomenon. Perhaps you need to get your read on?

Think the other way around actually.....
Would not SDA be comparable to 3D in movies?
It is artificially widening the sound, beyond what was intended.

Stereo speakers are what they utilized to make the recording in the mixing room, and we play recordings back on stereo speakers.

If they had used SDA speakers as the mixing speakers true, they would be much more ideal. But as is, stereo flawed or not, is at least trying to do what was intended.
Like it or not ( I like the effect!) SDA is adding an addition change to the music, and overall sound.
Same as adding surround speakers or ambiance effects, and saying they are more accurate.

You obviously don't understand the concepts/principle's behind SDA's, nothing artificial about it. It solves a natural occurring phenomenon in stereo reproduction. Perhaps you should get your read on?

No, 3D and SDA are not the comparison. Stereo and 3D are the correct comparison since Stereo tries to add dimension to the "flat" recorded signal. It's like 3D adding dimension (literally) to a "flat" picture. Stereo creates the 3D impression, SDA just improves on that.

H9

heiney9

Also, recordings aren't done in "stereo" (maybe on purpose some are), the final product is mixed to stereo, but the recording is multi-faceted.

heiney9

For K_M:

Stereo sound systems can be divided into two forms: the first is "true" or "natural" stereo in which a live sound is captured, with any natural reverberation or ambience present, by an array of microphones. The signal is then reproduced over multiple loudspeakers to recreate, as closely as possible, the live sound.

Secondly "artificial" or "pan-pot" stereo, in which a single-channel (mono) sound is reproduced over multiple loudspeakers. By varying the relative amplitude of the signal sent to each speaker an artificial direction (relative to the listener) can be suggested. The control which is used to vary this relative amplitude of the signal is known as a "pan-pot" (panoramic potentiometer). By combining multiple "pan-potted" mono signals together, a complete, yet entirely artificial, sound field can be created.

In technical usage, true stereo means sound recording and sound reproduction that uses stereographic projection to encode the relative positions of objects and events recorded.

During two-channel stereo recording, two microphones are placed in strategically chosen locations relative to the sound source, with both recording simultaneously. The two recorded channels will be similar, but each will have distinct time-of-arrival and sound-pressure-level information. During playback, the listener's brain uses those subtle differences in timing and sound level to triangulate the positions of the recorded objects. Stereo recordings often cannot be played on monaural systems without a significant loss of fidelity. Since each microphone records each wavefront at a slightly different time, the wavefronts are out of phase; as a result, constructive and destructive interference can occur if both tracks are played back on the same speaker. This phenomenon is known as phase cancellation.

treitz3

.....and we're off!!!

*grabbing popcorn and a whiskey*

Tom

heiney9

Nah, nothing to see here..............

motorstereo

I find amusing H9 that you have this vast knowledge of how stereo recordings are made and such but you can't wire up a neutrik connector or a dreadnaught
I'm sorry I just had to

heiney9

motorstereo wrote: »

I find amusing H9 that you have this vast knowledge of how stereo recordings are made and such but you can't wire up a neutrik connector or a dreadnaught
I'm sorry I just had to

I can, I just was looking for a short cut and only wanted to do it once. The actual hardware list helped a lot more than the hook-up.

txcoastal1

Measure twice, cut once

tonyb

treitz3 wrote: »

.....and we're off!!!

*grabbing popcorn and a whiskey*

Tom

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Nah, nothing to see here..............

You are simply wrong.

Do they use SDA speakers to mix or master recording with??

If no, you got your answer, very simple.
No condescending comments needed> I know what SDA does, you simply think it is accurate, I know it is not.

treitz3

*takes a double shot*

Tom

heiney9

I don't think you do. We aren't talking about the mastering process which is a left and a right channel. We are talking about playback in stereo trying to create the illusion of space and true to life ambient cues.

If you understood what SDA's hope to accomplish or rather better accomplish, you would see the light.

Take your blinders off and try and learn something.

FTR, I never said stereo, nor SDA was accurate. Neither can be since the recording is an approximation of a real and live event taken down to a left and a right channel. A 2 channel mix isn't accurate either, far from it. SDA was designed to overcome some of the shortcomings of stereo reproduction.

Really, get your read on as you really don't understand.

H9

Nightfall

Do places master or mix on headphones? Probably. Which is essentially what SDAs try to do more or less.

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

In real life there is no such thing as Stereo. It was a contrived way to make music sound more realistic. SDA's are a closer approximation to real life. If you research both methods in depth, you will agree.

Neither is going to recreate or substitute for a real life event, but stereo is horribly flawed in that regard.

H9

No, wrong again. SDA is simply an effect that was marketed as being "more real", when in reality if you read the marketing stuff closer, you would know it does not approximate how real recordings are ever made. That is the glitch in their explanation of this fun effect.
The marketing makes some assumptions with reality of actual recordings and how recordings are made, and then presumes to fix a problem that in reality does not occur in hardly any recordings.

heiney9

I see you just don't want to take the time to explore the theories involved. You just want to spout off what you clearly don't understand.

heiney9

SDA's nor speakers "make" the recordings, they playback the recordings. When a musical event is recorded we don't record from in front of a set of speakers.....WTF are you talking about? Way more involved than sticking a mic in front of a speaker

Nightfall

K_M wrote: »

and then presumes to fix a problem that in reality does not occur in hardly any recordings.

The problem with crosstalk is in playback, not the recording.