Why SACD failed

Gatecrasher

Maybe their speaker wires weren't properly broken-in yet when they did the test?

lol

F1nut

Always the fool.

pitdogg2

New titles are coming all the time. They are also rereleasing existing titles that sell out quickly. You guys are either ignoring this fact or just trolling for an argument.
I've seen more good rock releases in the last 3 yrs then anytime since the beginning of sacd which was way too many classical rereleases for my taste. The rolling stones at one time had 90% of their catalogue in SACD. You can get just about anything you want from Japan in SACD. By the way gatecrasher they're many things i wouldn't go investing in for my 401k so for you to keep bringing it up is just silly. Nobody here is or was advocating that at anytime in this discussion.
In ten yrs all the folks driving turntables and albums will be on this bet on it. 15 yrs ago if someone said they would be opening new record pressing plants in the U.S.A. many would of said they were insane. Guess what its freaking happening!!!

F1nut

Ivan brings up a good point. I've seen more and more people who divested of their CD/SACD collection in favor of files stating they wish they had kept the physical discs with some rebuying them. Perhaps the latest/greatest isn't.

Gatecrasher

I think the resurgence of vinyl has hurt SACD sales. A lot of audiophiles choose vinyl over SACD if given the choice.

CD sales continue to decline every year.

voltz

At Acoustic sounds - Analogue productions have their own line of SACD's like they do Vinyl's. I know they press their own Vinyl there in Salina Kansas but who makes their SACD's they label?
http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&CategoryID=8&LabelID=507

Gatecrasher

pitdogg2 wrote: »

By the way gatecrasher they're many things i wouldn't go investing in for my 401k so for you to keep bringing it up is just silly. Nobody here is or was advocating that at anytime in this discussion.

Sorry if what I said offended you but I happen to totally-disagree with what you are saying here. Even though it sounded like you meant it more as a personal attack than anything constructive, I'm not offended. But I will elaborate for you since it sounds like you didn't understand what I was getting at. Generally speaking, when things are successful they make for good investments and when the future doesn't look too bright they tend to be poor investment opportunities.

For instance, it probably wouldn't be too bad of an investment to put some money into the re-emerging vinyl market. Unlike SACD, vinyl sales are growing by double digits every year and there are some investors who are probably making money from it. I doubt you can say the same about SACD. I think there are probably some investors who years ago expected bigger things from SACD and lost money (perhaps big money) in the technology. Compared to vinyl, one would tend to think that investing in SACD technology wouldn't be too smart of a smart move.

But heck, I may be wrong and you may be right about all of this. SACDs may make a big resurgence like vinyl has (although SACDs never were even remotely as popular as vinyl records were so "resurgence" probably isn't the right term).

After all, we are both just expressing our own personal opinions.

mrloren

Finding CD/SACD in store's like Fry's and Best Buy is getting harder and harder. I use to go to Circuit City ands they had a big section of SACD. I didn't want to buy copies of what I already own so I only have a few.

pitdogg2

Gatecrasher wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

By the way gatecrasher they're many things i wouldn't go investing in for my 401k so for you to keep bringing it up is just silly. Nobody here is or was advocating that at anytime in this discussion.

But heck, I may be wrong and you may be right about all of this. SACDs may make a big resurgence like vinyl has (although SACDs never were even remotely as popular as vinyl records were so "resurgence" probably isn't the right term).

After all, we are both just expressing our own personal opinions.

It was never meant as an attack brah.
I was never offended
Many things audio are not good investments as far as making money off of.
Records had the advantage of 80+yrs of saturation. Nothing today or tomorrow will ever have that.
I agree we are expressing our opinions after all. No harm no foul.

.

BlueFox

Personally, I think the vinyl 'resurgence' is just a flash in the pan. After the newbies get sick of accidentally destroying records, breaking the stylus, cleaning, and all the other BS that goes with vinyl they will drop it as fast as they picked it up.

SACDs will continue to be available, but the percentage of acceptance will continue to decrease. If it wasn't for universal DVD players the number of SACD players would decrease every year. At this time (March 2017) there are few dedicated SACD player manufacturers around.

As others have mentioned, DSD is the biggest aspect of SACD, and that is just a file format. However, even now the argument for DSD is just splitting hairs over high-res PCM. Yes, physical media will persist for the near future, but it is a dying distribution method.

At some point, even I will have to accept UHD Blue Rays are obsolete, and I will have to download movies. Fortunately, the last mile of the current Internet prevents BR downloads from equaling disks, so we are safe for a few years.

Nightfall

BlueFox wrote: »

Personally, I think the vinyl 'resurgence' is just a flash in the pan. After the newbies get sick of accidentally destroying records, breaking the stylus, cleaning, and all the other BS that goes with vinyl they will drop it as fast as they picked it up.

This resurgence has been going on for a few years now, if people were going to get sick of that stuff I'd think it would have happened by now. Also, I bet a lot of the Crosely player type LP buyers, which is probably a large portion of the younger segment, don't even bother with most of that stuff, really.

treitz3

All I know is what my ears provide me. SACD brought me to her as a format by sound alone. I do not care about the masses. What I care about is sound. For me, better sound is paramount, no matter the format. I will chase it wherever it may rear its beautiful head.

Tom

erniejade

I wonder if Mobile Fidelity and Audio Fidelity will get into remastering DSD digital download? I have noticed on their sacd's and the redbook layer sounds close to the sacd and much better than the original cd. Sacd still has the advantage over the redbook layer but, ultimately its the mastering that shapes the sound. This also includes sacd from Sony vs sacd from Mobile Fidelity like Dylan or Billy Joel. I wound up re-buying some sacds in mofi because they just sounded better.
I would think eventually they would put their touches on the download side.

treitz3

Burmester has made a DSD/CD that sounds great on either layer. Even the RB version of "Tin Pan Alley" by SRV is the very best I have ever heard. That was on the RB layer of the disc and confirmed by many.

To date, there is something missing when it comes to digital downloads, network players or music services. Yes, I will admit that the sound is similar, not too far off, etc...

With that said, until I hear the sound from what the physical media provides on my rig?

No, thank you for offering.

I want all that I am accustomed to experiencing, all that I am privy too and all that the particular formats have to offer. Until they or at least one of them arrive at that point? I'm not interested in any aspect of convenience.

All I care about is the end result as to what hits my ears. All aspects of it.

Tom

Nightfall

I don't see how an SACD could sound different than a DSD file played through the same DAC with the same mastering.

erniejade

Nightfall wrote: »

I don't see how an SACD could sound different than a DSD file played through the same DAC with the same mastering.

Jitter, source, cables, and ppower supply noise can all make the same mastering dsd sound different vs the sscd. Reclockers or things like w4s rexovery or better power supplies can make them actually sound as good or better.

Nightfall

Unless I am misunderstanding then the difference is not in SACD vs file but rather the equipment, so I still don't see how pulling the DSD file off an SACD would sound different than the same DSD file pulled off a hard drive.

[Deleted User]

HDCD. Use guys forgot HDCD.
"So...you need a TT to play those great recordings on vinyl, a SACD player for those great recordings, a standard cdp, a blu=ray player for those concert discs, and a digital system for those higher rez recordings also and all that entails."

I dug out the old Arcam DV88 as I found a HDCD of the the Cars first.
Best I have heard of this title. No further testing has been done yet...

"I will chase it wherever it may rear its beautiful head." Not sure which body part you are chasing. That may be another thread.

Being an "Audiophile" has never been about mass-market.

tonyb

Nightfall wrote: »

Unless I am misunderstanding then the difference is not in SACD vs file but rather the equipment, so I still don't see how pulling the DSD file off an SACD would sound different than the same DSD file pulled off a hard drive.

For the reasons Brian just explained. Everything influences the sound once that file is opened, be it on a disc or hard drive. A good analog output stage can make or break the sound too. Most well built SACD players should have a decent output stage, verses running a file from a hard drive into a 300 buck dac.

It's not so much the file itself, but what happens to it after it's opened and everything in between before it hits the speakers.

It was pointed out earlier that some players take that DSD file and down mix it into PCM, another conversion process that will affect the sound. Sometimes, we don't even realize it, the way we hook things up can add additional conversion processes into the equation further effecting the sound. Then you have the quality of the dac inside a SACD player and a stand alone dac. Depending on the quality of each, will also have a big influence.

It's always been my perception, that when using a hard drive for DSD files, your other electronics need to be up to snuff too....if you want the same type of sound that a good SACD player delivers.

Now here's my take on playing files from a hard drive verses a stand alone player, be it a regular CDP or SACD player. I'm not one of those golden ears types either, but I know how to listen and for what.

It's not EXACTLY the same. There are various reasons for that, and we covered many of them in the thread already. I still give the nod to the physical media holding a slight edge over hard drive media. Call it a better sense of weight, more fleshed out tones, whatever.....there is something there not replicated by a downloaded file. Now one can say, you need better quality gear hooked up to the hard drive. I've heard other systems with some darn good front end electronics and very nice audiophile grade streamers....something is still missing. You can say I'm being too picky, placebo effect, whatever....and it may be part true too.

The rub is, if you never heard the physical media, you'd think nothing was missing on the hard drive media, it sounds pretty frickin' good all on it's own. Just Like Ken said before, the best way to enjoy digital music is to never listen to analog. With that said, I think digital has the legs to close that gap to a point it won't matter much for most people.

A good TT setup, or a good SACD player costs some coinage these days, quality audio has a price when it comes to those things. That's why some people as they age, and have a few more bucks in their pockets, revert back to the analog side of things. There is something in the analog production that is just not replicated on the digital side and I can't quite put my finger on it.

We make trade offs though don't we. We trade a tad bit of SQ for convenience, and most of us are more than willing to make that trade. Think I'm wrong ? Would you buy a 4k tv if it had no remote capabilities.....or settle for a 1080p set with a remote ? You'd easily trade that difference in video quality for the convenience of a remote. Audio is kinda the same. We traded TT's for CDP's with remotes, thought it was the next best thing since sliced bread at the time too. Digital/hard drive takes that convenience a step further, and with the addition of music services that put 20 million songs at your finger tips....now your blowing people's minds with that kind of convenience.....and they'll make that small trade off once again in SQ.

The last few years though, digital has really stepped up it's game. I think the Gods who make this stuff realize the potential for good SQ and they've made leaps and bounds in improving digital playback. It's so close to a SACD player now, it's almost negligible....all things being equal on the mastering/recording side. Mastering is still key to all this, a good recording can sound stellar even on the most typical mid fi systems.

DarqueKnight

Nightfall wrote: »

I don't see how an SACD could sound different than a DSD file played through the same DAC with the same mastering.

Nightfall wrote: »

Unless I am misunderstanding then the difference is not in SACD vs file but rather the equipment, so I still don't see how pulling the DSD file off an SACD would sound different than the same DSD file pulled off a hard drive.

Basically it involves the electrical and mechanical noise characteristics of the hard drive, the computers or external enclosures the hard drive resides in, and the SACD transport.

I recently did an exercise where I compared the sound of the same digital files from a solid state drive and from the same hard drive installed in three different external enclosures.

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/176485/the-sound-of-hard-drive-enclosures

As Tony said, mastering plays a part also. The more clarity and detail there is in the master tape and transfer, the easier it is to hear differences when the file is played from various sources.

Nightfall

It must be a negligible difference if you're playing files like you are?

DarqueKnight

No.

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/176485/the-sound-of-hard-drive-enclosures