Amps and surge protectors

pkquat

I saw the post on the Monster hts5100, and notes about people plugging amps directly into the wall. Any reason not to include a surge protector in the path? I have always used one, albeit a basic one for some chance at protection from an unwanted surge. The amp is the only thing plugged in, and the surge protector has a more than adequate amp rating and cord.

On a side note depending on how the wall outlets are wired, they are probably on the same circuit, and sometimes only tapped off outlets already in the room.

tonyb

Like with everything, different grades of power conditioners. Most using MOV devices limit current. On smaller devices that don't suck up a lot of current like dvd players, cdp's, cable boxes, TV's, they usually don't pose a problem. Amps draw a considerable amount, and when combined with all the other components, can get a limited amount of current fed them.

There are power conditioners that don't limit current, usually more expensive than your run of the mill BestBuy stuff though like Monster. So generally speaking, we suggest the amp straight into the wall.

[Deleted User]

if you have an amp with a unregulated PS then it doesn't make sense to regulate the power in front of it. (unless you have a device that can do it well)

pkquat

I talking a plain surge protector, a power strip with surge protection, there is no line conditioning etc. It is only for power surges that might happen if the power blips or there is a lightening strike. Its a layer of protection between the amp and the wall. Up to a point it is supposed to fry the $25-50 strip and protect the $$$$ amp. The ones I use are rated for 25A, more than most wall outlets. This is similar.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1K02B90672

motorhead43026

^^sorry, but that is junk^^

EndersShadow

Do you rent or own?

If you own, it would be worth it to just invest now in a whole house protector that is installed at the breaker panel. Then you dont need tons of those cheap ones (which I wouldn't use on my audio gear anyway).

The stuff your using wont protect well if at all and I'd honestly discontinue it in general for your audio equipment.

tonyb

That might protect some things against small surges, but I wouldn't put any decent amp into it. Most electronic devices these days can do just fine with small surges on their own.

I had something similar way back when, anything bigger than a small surge will fry those puppies.

leftwinger57

I do it also. Tony makes sense that the amp draws more but I don't have a quad outlet only a duplex. So one plug strip for light and other sundries and the other goes to my Samson 9 outlet surge protector w a certain amount of joule protection and my Adcom is plugged into that. Also this outlet happens to be switched. I removed the switch and wire nutted and taped off the leads. it's behind my bookshelf cd case.

pkquat

Reminder this is only for an amp, not other audio equipment.

EndersShadow wrote: »

Do you rent or own?

If you own, it would be worth it to just invest now in a whole house protector that is installed at the breaker panel. Then you dont need tons of those cheap ones (which I wouldn't use on my audio gear anyway).

The stuff your using wont protect well if at all and I'd honestly discontinue it in general for your audio equipment.

I used to rent, and have a small supply from renting, but now I own. I am interested in recommendations for a whole house protector. I did a quick search, but I am thinking it is not the sub $200 Home Depot model.

If a whole house protector can protect from a house lightening strike, that sounds like a smart plan.

motorhead43026 wrote: »

^^sorry, but that is junk^^

tonyb wrote: »

That might protect some things against small surges, but I wouldn't put any decent amp into it. Most electronic devices these days can do just fine with small surges on their own.

I had something similar way back when, anything bigger than a small surge will fry those puppies.

I am a little confused. Are you saying it has no chance of protecting the amp? My thought is if it gets fried or takes some damage, better that than my amp, or at least limit the surge to the amp if it is not that good. They are rated for 20-25A continuous pass through current, so I don't think they are limiting anything. The cords are short. I've overloaded a similar one for garage work. The 20A garage breaker tripped first. The surge protector cord was not even warm. I understand I am adding some resistance and an extra plug, but I can't think it would make that much difference.

Do they color the power coming in? Wouldn't wall power have noise from other electronics? Do they lower the power draw response time?

I don't think surge protectors are fairy dust and magic beans, although some may be. Or maybe my thoughts on how well they might protect things may fall into the category of magic beans. If they are detrimental to powering an amp I am interested in knowing why.

tonyb

I wouldn't say they are detrimental, just not beneficial. What amp are you using anyway ?

The reason most don't use power strips is for their internal cheap parts. Putting more cheap parts between the juice and amp isn't going to benefit the sound.

F1nut

None of those surge protectors will do squat to stop a direct hit and small fluctuations in voltage are easily handled by the transformer in your power amp. All those strips do is add noise in the line. Motorhead is correct, that one is junk.

If want some real deal stuff, look at PS Audio, Shunyata or SurgeX. There is a very good reason they cost more.

pkquat

I have an Hafler DH-220 that is running great after 10+ years in storage, and Krell 300i. If my amps illicit the response of "eh, it doesn't make much different what those are plugged into", I am looking for general knowledge for the future. The when, where, and why it makes a difference. I am slowly expanding to better equipment and more power.

I had always heard of people plugging directly into the wall. I get the reasons going directly to the wall vs. pluging it into a power strip with every other component, but wondered why not have its own surge protector or line conditioner if needed. When I saw it come up again, I thought I would ask.

[Deleted User]

questions are good. NP and good hunting.

boston1450

Always good idea to have great insurance policy too

pkquat

tonyb wrote: »

The reason most don't use power strips is for their internal cheap parts. Putting more cheap parts between the juice and amp isn't going to benefit the sound.

F1nut wrote: »

None of those surge protectors will do squat to stop a direct hit and small fluctuations in voltage are easily handled by the transformer in your power amp. All those strips do is add noise in the line. Motorhead is correct, that one is junk.

If want some real deal stuff, look at PS Audio, Shunyata or SurgeX. There is a very good reason they cost more.

So, although the surge protector may have the amp draw capacity, and decent power cable and plug it is mor for utility use. The cheaper surge components likely effect the power draw from some amps and likely introduce noise. They may add more noise than they claim to be removing, or the noise is added in a different region. This noise can still be passed through, and may be more or less noticeable depending on the amplifier design. If you are using $400-700 HT receiver with a basic setup, you probably won't notice a difference, and it may add a little insurance, i.e. its better than nothing, but if its too cheap, its probably a waste of money.

The one I linked is similar to what I generally use and was an easy internet find. Mine usually have more surge protection and I would say are better, but nowhere near what F1Nut linked.

Would what F1Nut linked would be recommended as some type of protection for an amp without adding noise (since they include line conditioning noise should be limited), or limiting the amp, or are they more for components, TV's, and receivers? $100-200, maybe more for good $1000+ amp protection seams wise. From what I gather line conditioning is not really needed for the amp, but I don't know if those exist. If not, then its on to the $300-400 range for a conditioner with protection that can handle the amp draw. At some point I would figure it becomes a percentage of the amp price, or it reaches a point that you find a way to claim the amp on an insurance policy.

What level of amps would you say are effected by a surge protector in the line? What type, class, of amps are more effected? When does general house circuit noise come into play?

F1nut

So, although the surge protector may have the amp draw capacity, and decent power cable and plug it is mor for utility use.

What strip surge protector do you have that is rated to pass high current? None of those inexpensive units come with a decent power cord/plug.

At some point I would figure it becomes a percentage of the amp price

Many look at it like that, but many, including myself don't.

What level of amps would you say are effected by a surge protector in the line? What type, class, of amps are more effected?

Once you get past consumer grade gear.

When does general house circuit noise come into play?

Immediately.

How about this. Listen with your amp plugged into your power strip, then with it straight into the wall. If you can't hear a difference you can sleep well.

headrott

F1nut wrote: »

How about this. Listen with your amp plugged into your power strip, then with it straight into the wall. If you can't hear a difference you can sleep well.

^^^^^^Yep.^^^^^

[Deleted User]

If I lived in Clearwater Fl. I'd get a TVSS.

You have two circuits into the room I presume.
Pick the less noisy/busy of the two. (free)

That Hafler DH-220 is a nice mosfet amp.
I'd look into the recommendations above.
You might like your amp more and be set for the
future in any case. I tried Furman strips that
the AV people swear by and they didn't do much
for me. (but better protection I hope)

It's hard to spend as much money as your amp is worth
on power. Those that do are rewarded.

smglbrth

This comes up every so often. I think that not only power spikes but also brown outs is why people ask. Maybe there is a list somewhere containing protectors/conditioners that don't limit current to amps? I can tell you one thing, out of the places I've lived, and the experiences I've had with all sorts of electrical outages/problems, I wouldn't be without a protection device. It's small piece of mind for big dollar amps...

[Deleted User]

I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.
ya know, i wou

tonyb

Obviously where you live will dictate your course of action. If you live in an area of constant surges or brown outs, maybe a whole home solution is your ticket at the breaker box.

If you have mid-line gear and live in a more stable area, The Furman's/Monster type units should suffice for simple surge protection. If your gear is running more to the higher end side, where audio differences are easily heard, the PS Audio, Shunyata type units should be on your radar.

Point is, there is a solution for every need. Variety is the spice of life, as they say.

machone

I have been reading this and other threads about plugging the amp into the surge/line conditioner or into the wall. I have all my components plugged into a Tripp-Lite LRC2400. A year ago I switched the Hafler 500 back and forth between the Tripp-Lite and the wall and could hear no difference. Since then I have added a better source (Marantz SA8005) better ic's (Wire World Equinox7) and better speakers (2.3TL's). I decided to plug the Hafler into the wall last night and I am liking what I am hearing. I will listen more tonight as I don't like comment too much after one listening session.

honestaquarian

Two things
1)I used to work at an audio shop that did equipment repairs. Once we had a huge ice storm in this area and for months after people were bringing in audio and video components which were plugged into a power strip and got taken out anyway.
2)Once I was trying to pick up a weak radio station that was thirty five or so miles away. I had it plugged into a regular 15 amp AC outlet and there was a LOT of noise. Then just for the halibut I decided to plug my radio into a 20 amp dedicated AC outlet that was designated for an air conditioner and on it's own circuit. The noise level dropped DRAMATICALLY.

[Deleted User]

^^^ plus it ran cooler.

halo

In a perfect world, the dedicated circuit is the way to go with whole house surge protection at the breaker box.

I live in an apartment and the wiring is all messed up. So, I'm basically screwed as far as clean, free flowing, power to my set up is concerned.

Maybe solar panels or an electricity generating windmill is the way to go? If you have a river near by, use your own generator powered by the current of the river? Sell what you don't use back to the utility company.

Willow

halo wrote: »

In a perfect world, the dedicated circuit is the way to go with whole house surge protection at the breaker box.

I live in an apartment and the wiring is all messed up. So, I'm basically screwed as far as clean, free flowing, power to my set up is concerned.

Maybe solar panels or an electricity generating windmill is the way to go? If you have a river near by, use your own generator powered by the current of the river? Sell what you don't use back to the utility company.

This is what I don't get, and no, this is not directed at you. Most people have run of the mill power cables that the builder bought in bulk and installed behind the walls. So why are some buying power cables worth more than the entire run of electrical cables combined throughout the house?

Secondly, I'm tempted to try my rotel plugged directly into the wall. However I am reluctant as we live in a new build and they are still building a couple blocks away and we never know when they will shut down the power to hook up more houses. What kind of damage if any could be caused to my amp? Or am I better leaving in my monster power conditioner Jic?

halo

Willow wrote: »

This is what I don't get, and no, this is not directed at you. Most people have run of the mill power cables that the builder bought in bulk and installed behind the walls. So why are some buying power cables worth more than the entire run of electrical cables combined throughout the house?

Well, that's kind of what I mean. How much control do you, the consumer, have over the alternating current that's being delivered to your home or, more specifically, to your Hi-fi? If you were going to build a house and ComEd is running the power to your home, what kind of cables are they using? Would you substitute their cable runs for yours? Can you? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm honestly curious about the affect of a 3' cable at the end of the chain.

[Deleted User]

"I'm honestly curious about the affect of a 3' cable at the end of the chain."
You are focusing on one "link" in the chain.

"Belkin Commercial Surge Protector" Hmmm.

"Panamax MAX500 DBS" how do you like these?

halo

rednedtugent wrote: »

"I'm honestly curious about the affect of a 3' cable at the end of the chain."
You are focusing on one "link" in the chain.

Did you read my post? I am most certainly NOT focusing on ONE link in the chain. Build a house, what CABLE / WIRING do you install? ComEd comes out to hook you up to the grid with their CABLE. Can you swap your choice of CABLE for their CABLE?

I don't know what you got out of my initial post, but you might need to reread it and address ALL the LINKS in the CHAIN which is what I was asking about.

rednedtugent wrote: »

"Belkin Commercial Surge Protector" Hmmm.

Are you judging me? lol. ok. Let me reiterate, I live in an APARTMENT where the WIRING is a MESS. I don't have access to clean power where I'm at right now. So, ya, a Belkin Commercial Surge Protector gives me a little peace of mind and some additional outlets, since outlets are few and far between in my APARTMENT.

rednedtugent wrote: »

"Panamax MAX500 DBS" how do you like these?

I like them fine. That said, I don't notice them "doing anything." Maybe that's the point? I don't have any noise in my set up. Is that what you're asking?

They were with me when I was living in a house with a dedicated 20A line running my InnerSound Eros Electrostatic Hybrid speakers, InneSound 400 wpc x-over / bass amp, Sanders Sound System ESL amp, Modwright modified Sony 9100 ES w/ tube rectified PS, and a VTL 2.5 preamp. I'm still using stuff that I have left over from that set up but all of the core components are long gone due to an unfortunate series of events a few years back.

So, what's the ideal way to get clean, pure alternating current into your set up? As I questioned, are you better off producing your own electricity with solar panels or wind or water propelled generators? That way, I would think, you have the most control over the AC in your house, no?

If you have to rely on the utility company, like ComEd, for your AC, what's the best way to get the most out of it?

tonyb

The best way ? May not be wallet friendly. IMHO, the best way is to invest in the power conditioners that regenerate the juice also, like PS Audio's higher end units and the likes. Also, the best way is to have your system on dedicated circuits, so that other things like appliances, AC/HEAT, aren't introducing noise into the line. If you had your own electricity such as solar or wind, you'd still have the same problems if you didn't have dedicated circuits.

F1nut

So why are some buying power cables worth more than the entire run of electrical cables combined throughout the house?

To help lower the noise floor, which you don't really hear until it gets lowered resulting in greater clarity. Power cords are not the last 3 feet, they are the first.

However I am reluctant as we live in a new build and they are still building a couple blocks away and we never know when they will shut down the power to hook up more houses. What kind of damage if any could be caused to my amp?

No different than you hitting the power switch.