Low to Mid grade cables for new LSiM703's? (Current ones are homebuilt)
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I would never recommend upgrading cables before upgrading to a good external amp. You'll hear more of a sonic upgrade with a new amp.
You don't know that. Besides, there's nothing wrong with upgrading ones cables before upgrading something else. They are, after all, just as important as the rest.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Cables are not gear - they are simply a means to interconnect gear and do as little harm to the original signals as possible.
If wire was just wire, my former employer, AT&T, would not have spent billions of dollars in research and development of low noise cable designs...and this was for wire carrying a very narrowband signal (human voice frequencies).Cables should not provide any sort of tone, filter, sound control, coloration or spatial effects as that is the role of real gear i.e. speakers, amplifiers, preamp, speakers, or source equipment.
Even if a cable achieved the holy grail of being a "straight wire with gain" there would still be the issue of electrical noise induced by environmental effects, crosstalk, and spurious noise induced by the capacitive effects of the insulation. The world is really not as simple as cable naysayers would have the gullible believe.Cables are important of course for without them there would be no sound from a component based system, however to achieve good results, one does not need to purchase expensive exotic cables that rival or exceed the cost of real gear.
This is true, just as it is true that one does not need to purchase expensive tires and other automotive performance enhancements (brakes, suspension, exhaust, etc.) that rival or exceed the cost of new car. It depends on the stereophonic performance goals the listener is pursuing.I understand there is a strong desire by some to promote the selling of these cables since they have a relatively large profit margin new and one doesn't want to diminish their value in the used market for resale. It is easy to observe that exotic cable pushers generally act in their own self interest by expanding this market and not in the real interests of those looking to improve their audio systems in an economical manner.
From what I have observed on this forum, most of the members here are of the "value" and "bang for the buck" mindset. Some are self-admitted audio cheapskates. Polk is not an esoteric, high dollar brand, therefore, your attempt to characterize some of us as lusting after expensive audio exotica does not make sense.
In my case, I have said time and time again that I prefer to purchase high performance cables on the used market and that I love a bargain. Many others here have said the same thing.For properly performing speaker cables, one needs to select the appropriate gauge of copper wire based on well established electrical engineering principles. That's it - just real science and not magic, fancy marketing jargon, or pseudo-science.
There are many articles on cable design in the Bell Laboratories Technical Journal and in many IEEE journals that validate that there is more to cable design than wire gauge. Tell us, if wire gauge is the only metric of performance, why did AT&T invest years of research in various "twisted pair" configurations? You do understand why telephone wire needs to be twisted don't you?Good connectors are recommended of course. I recommend locking banana plugs or spades. Esthetically dressing up cables with heat-shrink on wire ends, cable pants and techflex make for a good looking installation. Good looking and performing cables for a high performance home audio system do not have to cost hundreds and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
I trust that this will put this matter to rest.
You seem to want everyone to convert to your naysayer religion and pursue this hobby on the same level that you do. You seem to get angry with people who seek higher stereophonic performance. It is not even clear that you have an interest in stereophonic performance. We never see you discussing sound stage, imaging, image weight, layering, or any of the stereophonic effects that add a measure of "lifelike" quality to reproduced music.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Judging by the quotes Ray posted I have to say those that don't know, don't know they don't know and man, that's one that doesn't know.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
A crack of the bat and that one is OUTTA HERE!
DEEP over the left field wall. -
Put on a blindfold, and see if X,Y and Z, are still X, Y and Z, when you are not aware of which is which.
If they are, then proceed to give your Proof to those questioning the claim!
If it is merely based on Cognitive Dissonance, so be it!
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=14
I see guys comparing speaker cables to Vacuum cleaners, Wine,light bulbs, Car tires,Telephone Transmission cables, Steaks, Fast food, Chocolate and Laundry detergent.
If the difference or improvement one is experiencing is truly substantial, meaningful or important, it should be quite easy to demonstrate and prove! -
Actually, it is quite easy to prove. First one has to at least know what they are listening for, otherwise it's a wasted exercise.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I would never recommend upgrading cables before upgrading to a good external amp. You'll hear more of a sonic upgrade with a new amp.
You don't know that. Besides, there's nothing wrong with upgrading ones cables before upgrading something else. They are, after all, just as important as the rest.
I do know that, for me, anyway. What makes sense is changing the things in the order in which the biggest differences can be heard. Of course, you can just get the good cables first and not have to worry about it later. Anyway, case in point--I'm dealing with a crappy DAC in my Oppo which makes the music sound harsh and brittle. I'm adding an external DAC which will give me a (hopefully!) noticeable improvement. When that is right, then come the cables. I got the Audioquest ICs so that part should be good. I will then look to The Forum on suggestions of how to spend obscene amounts of money on peripherals.
TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier -
I would never recommend upgrading cables before upgrading to a good external amp. You'll hear more of a sonic upgrade with a new amp. Once you're good with that, then use new cables to fine tune your rig. You don't have to spend $500 on cabling right now. It just doesn't make sense. This is all, of course, IMHO.
Somebody already had this opinion. Two same opinions are not allowed.
The original opinion is null and void because I stated it so much more eloquently. Or something like that. j/kTV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier -
I DON'T KNOW WHY TELEPHONE WIRES ARE TWISTED AND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. NICE DISCUSSION HERE BUT IT IS A RE-RUN SEVERAL TIMES OVER AND NEEDS TO BE HASHED OUT FROM TIME TO TIME AND THE STORY RE-TOLD FOR ALL THE OBVIOUS REASONS. GOOD CABLES IN MY OPINION ARE ESSENTIAL KIND OF LIKE PAYING EXTRA FOR GOOD STEEL IN A CARVING TOOL OR CHISEL...YET ANOTHER COMPARISON. THIS IS SUCH FUN, NOW WHICH PRE-AMP DO I USE IN MY NEW RIG?Main Family Room: Sony 46 LCD, Sony Blue Ray, Sony DVD/VCR combo,Onkyo TXNR 708, Parasound 5250,
Polk SDS-SRS with mods, CSI 5 center + Klipsch SC2, Polk RT2000P rears, Klipsch KG 1.5's sides, Polk Micro Pro 1000, Polk Micro Pro 2000, Polk SW505, Belkin PF60, Signal Cable Classics,Monster IC's, 2 15 amp circuits & 1 20 amp circuit.
Living Room: Belkin PF60, Parasound HCA2200, MIT ProlineEXP balanced IC's,Emotiva XDA-1 DAC/Pre,Emotiva ERC2 transport,MIT AVT2, Polk LSI 9's. -
I will then look to The Forum on suggestions of how to spend obscene amounts of money on peripherals.
LOL
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
You seem to want everyone to convert to your naysayer religion and pursue this hobby on the same level that you do. You seem to get angry with people who seek higher stereophonic performance. It is not even clear that you have an interest in stereophonic performance. We never see you discussing sound stage, imaging, image weight, layering, or any of the stereophonic effects that add a measure of "lifelike" quality to reproduced music.
Has it ever occurred to you.........prove you can Tell "your" speaker wires, from run of the mill wires, by simply doing a Blind test?
Or is the fun "in" the bickering?
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TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier -
Put on a blindfold, and see if X,Y and Z, are still X, Y and Z, when you are not aware of which is which.
What does this have to do with stereophonic listening? The purpose of a stereophonic audio system is to produce an illusion of a three dimensional music performance. Therefore, when evaluating stereophonic equipment, I listen for:
1. Changes in the height, width, and depth of the sound stage.
2. Changes in the size and location of sound images in the sound stage.
3. Changes in the character and quality of sound images.
Do you know anything about stereo and how it works?
If they are, then proceed to give your Proof to those questioning the claim!I see guys comparing speaker cables to Vacuum cleaners, Wine,light bulbs, Car tires,Telephone Transmission cables, Steaks, Fast food, Chocolate and Laundry detergent.
The point was that it takes some measure of training and experience to evaluate sensory phenomena. A lot of people have to be trained to perceive the center image between a pair of stereo speakers. A trained driver will pick up differences in car suspensions that I would not perceive.If the difference or improvement one is experiencing is truly substantial, meaningful or important, it should be quite easy to demonstrate and prove!
It is easy to demonstrate and prove when people know how and what to listen for. With regard to stereo, it is foolish to just look for a "difference". You must qualify where the difference was found. For example, was the difference in tactile sensation, greater space between sound images, more clarity in percussion instruments, etc.?Has it ever occurred to you.........prove you can Tell "your" speaker wires, from run of the mill wires, by simply doing a Blind test?
Has it ever occurred to you that this hobby is not about proving what you hear to others, it is about discerning for yourself what hardware and software (music) provides the most realistic and satisfying music reproduction experience?Or is the fun "in" the bickering?
The fun in discussions with pseudo-scientific naysayers is in seeing them tuck tail and run whenever I ask them to scientifically justify the use of blindfolds in evaluating sensory phenomena (stereophonic sound) that was designed for trained listening ears. Blind tests are for naïve, inexperienced, untrained people.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
Has it ever occurred to you that this hobby is not about proving what you hear to others, it is about discerning for yourself what hardware and software (music) provides the most realistic and satisfying music reproduction experience?Or is the fun "in" the bickering?
The fun in discussions with pseudo-scientific naysayers is in seeing them tuck tail and run whenever I ask them to scientifically justify the use of blindfolds in evaluating sensory phenomena [/b](stereophonic sound) that was designed for trained listening ears. Blind tests are for naïve, inexperienced, untrained people.
Can we try again?
If that Xcapri guy brought over 2 run of the mill speaker wires and you had your choice of your "Best" wire, and you were not aware of which was being used, could you tell which was which if you were not aware?
No blindfold, no tricks.
How certain would you be of the outcome?
Just a fun question, no need to worry!
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Besides all the wacky videos you dudes are showing how about something this guy can really afford. Keep in mind they are not your choice and not for your system but Blue Jean Cables has different models,ends, lengths that a dude starting out might just be able to swing. Just let me/him know.
I think that's reasonable enough.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm2chl- Adcom GFA- 555-Onkyo P-3150v pre/amp- JVC-QL-A200 tt- Denon 1940 ci cdp- Adcom GFS-6 -Modded '87 SDA 2Bs - Dynamat Ext.- BH-5- X-Overs VR-3, RDO-194 tweeters, Larry's Rings, Speakon/Neutrik I/C- Cherry stain tops Advent Maestros,Ohm model E
H/T- Toshiba au40" flat- Yamaha RX- V665 avr- YSD-11 Dock- I-Pod- Klipsch #400HD Speaker set-
Bdrm- Nikko 6065 receiver- JBL -G-200s--Pioneer 305 headphones--Sony CE375-5 disc -
http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/home/home - about lat.html
Above for speaker cable. very good cable and value.
http://www.audioartcable.com/
Above for interconnects, great value.
2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.
Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.
Imagine making politics your entire personality. -
Can we try again?
If that Xcapri guy brought over 2 run of the mill speaker wires and you had your choice of your "Best" wire, and you were not aware of which was being used, could you tell which was which if you were not aware?
No blindfold, no tricks.
How certain would you be of the outcome?
Just a fun question, no need to worry!
No worries at all!
I met @Xcapri79 for lunch in June 2015 when he was in my city for business. After lunch I invited him to my home for some cable trials. He said he needed to get back home, but I gave him an open invitation to return. Here is a quote from a thread that mentioned our lunch meeting and my invitation:DarqueKnight wrote: »
It was nice meeting you and your colleague Dr. Q.
Xcapri79 doesn't live far from me and was in town on business. We met for a late lunch at one of the local delis.
If you had been able to accept my invitation to come to my home and participate in some listening tests, I would have demonstrated how something as simple as a power cable can impact stereophonic performance. For example, if I put the stock power cord on my left power amp, there is a perceivable shift in image weight and increased tactile sensation to the right. This is something that people with no interest or experience in audio can perceive. I understood that you and your colleague needed to get back home. On your next trip, if you have more time, you are welcome to come over and listen.
No blindfold, no tricks.
How certain would you be of the outcome?
The only thing I would be certain of is that I would be able to accurately characterize and document what I heard.
I just posted a review today in which I discussed that I was able to hear the differences in two analog cables and several digital cables with a new, more resolving DAC. With the previous DAC, in that particular audio system, I didn't hear a difference between a $45 digital cable and one costing 10X as much.
The difference between me and people like you is that I'm not afraid to try new things and I am not on a crusade to prove others wrong. I just want best stereophonic reproduction that I can afford.
Again, do you actually know anything about stereophonic reproduction and how to properly evaluate it?
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
Again, do you actually know anything about stereophonic reproduction and how to properly evaluate it?
We chide people who try to convince us that cables don't matter. Then we go ahead and try to convince them that there is a difference as they chide us. At the end of the day are we any better than them?TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier -
Ray, don't expect anything close to a reasoned response here because it will not be forthcoming.
lmao....
Notified,
Youtube lesson ? Seriously ? Audio is about sharing your experiences, not claiming others as your own when you have none. Too many internet Einsteins with nothing under their belts to form their own opinions.
Tonyb I'm beginning to pity you!!,
I assume from your reaction you haven't even taken the time to watch the video before ignorantly stating your uneducated opinion on it!
As a example of your incredible audacity you state "audio is about sharing" This is exactly what this group of professionals were doing in relation to their field in the audio genre,
furthermore you go on to state "I claim others as my own" HOW THE HELL do you derive at that conclusion?
I found a very relevant discussion on the net pertaining to this much debated topic and posted in [a semi sarcastic humorous way]that perhaps something could be learned by listening to professionals in their related field of study
Dear sir just were DO YOU GET OFF claiming I suggest Their opinions are my own!! Thats so ludicrous in its context that it makes absolutely no sense!!
and again may I point out that I never offered my opinion on the subject I'M just another student on the road to seek enlightenment!
As for your BIGOTED "internet Einsteins" comment let me remind you although there is unfortunately a huge amount of fluff and misinformation on it. It was conceived as a means to share pernitive information and when you look in the right places you will find a wealth of wisdom to that regard!!,ie medical data scientific data, etc, posted by prominent universities and professionals not to mention major library's have their catalogues being added daily just to site another example.And this information is available worldwide!!
In conclusion and I've said this before to you and apologized as it with given in the wrong context but however in this instant it proves duly warranted -"Sometimes you have to remove your head from your **** before you realize that your s--t stinks!! Perhaps if you'd spend less time engaging in your polk troll pastime and more time spent in the pursuit of knowledge that recommendation may not be necessary -
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LIGHTMAN did you take the time to view the video? Perhaps you'd like to add your comments on it in a more serious literary manner
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LIGHTMAN did you take the time to view the video? Perhaps you'd like to add your comments on it in a more serious literary manner
Maybe you should chill and drop the rude and condescending attitude
You started out all p!ss and vinegar, so how do you expect any respect in returnPost edited by txcoastal1 on2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
txcoastal1 wrote: »You started out all p!ss and vinegar, so how do you expect expect any respect in return
Because he found a video on the Internet.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
This is why odds makers don't give odds on cable fights.TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier -
LIGHTMAN did you take the time to view the video? Perhaps you'd like to add your comments on it in a more serious literary manner
No on both parts. -
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Put on a blindfold, and see if X,Y and Z, are still X, Y and Z, when you are not aware of which is which.
If they are, then proceed to give your Proof to those questioning the claim!
If it is merely based on Cognitive Dissonance, so be it!
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=14
I see guys comparing speaker cables to Vacuum cleaners, Wine,light bulbs, Car tires,Telephone Transmission cables, Steaks, Fast food, Chocolate and Laundry detergent.
If the difference or improvement one is experiencing is truly substantial, meaningful or important, it should be quite easy to demonstrate and prove!
I have done the blindfold test, that too with cheap cables. I switched from monoprice to bluejeans speaker cables. No change in gear,cable length, source, even the banana plugs from the same manufacturer from the same batch. Bluejeans speaker cables opened up the sound stage much more. I immediately switched all the speaker cables in my HT to BlueJeans cable. Monoprice cables were higher pitch, tin sounding. If my fiance can say there is a difference in sound, then its definitely noticeable. I can say cables do impact the sound, I dont know the technicalities and how/why they do. May be more expensive cables will provide more or may be not. But two cables definitely sound different.
I am of a camp where I dont preach spending more than your gear on the cables. But when someone says all cables sound the same, its not true.
I dont have super nice speakers and gear, but I do believe in comparison and I go with which suits best for my taste and pocket. Without comparing, you really cant know what you are looking for. I am really tempted to try out some DIY silver cables
Yes, cars/wine/vacuum cleaners, all can be compared to speaker cables. Its all relative. I put high performance summer tires in my bmw, but I put all season tires in my audi. I drive my bmw hard in summer. If I were to drive hard with all seasons on the bmw, I would be wrapped around the tree. But the audi is a grocery getter, all wheel drive winter monster and daily driver, no need for expensive, high performance tires to get grocery. See my point? Buy the cables that suits your taste, expensive/cheap doesnt really matter.Sony BDP-S6500 | Raspberry Pi 2 | XBOX One S | Wii --> Yamaha RX-V667 --> Adcom 5006 bridged to 175 watts for front LCR -- >Front: Polk Audio RTi8s | Center: CSi5 | Side Surrounds: RTi4s | Rear surrounds: FXiA4s | Cheap 12" sub woofer|Samsung UN60KU6300 -
And beer! Blindfold me and put two (or more) in front of me and I'll tell you which one is better.
And I will continue on with my research until I'm slap effin silly with pros and cons of different beers! -
When we do blind comparisons here, you must leave you eyes in the bowl when entering. Although it causes problems with mismatched eyes when leaving, it works out eventually.
2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.
Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.
Imagine making politics your entire personality. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
Again, do you actually know anything about stereophonic reproduction and how to properly evaluate it?
We chide people who try to convince us that cables don't matter. Then we go ahead and try to convince them that there is a difference as they chide us. At the end of the day are we any better than them?
I didn't chide anyone. I asked someone if they actually knew anything about how stereo works and I asked them to explain the relevance of their proposed testing methodology to the sound localization skill required to hear a stereophonic sound stage.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
This discussion has been closed.