RTIa9

soccerTOOLsu

Would a Denon X4000 be strong enough to power a pair of Polk RTiA9's or LSiM705?

Already have a pair of RTiA5.
Already have the AVR-X4000.

Rated output
*THD figures are power amp stage values.
125 W + 125 W
(8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.05 %)

RTiA9
Electrical - Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Electrical - Recommended Amplifier Power 50-500 watts per channel

LSiM705
Electrical - Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Electrical - Recommended Amplifier Power 20-250 watts per channel

F1nut

It will do neither justice, especially the 9's.

Inspector 24

What he said. When I bought the A9's and hooked them up to my 140wpc Yamaha I thought they sounded terrible, worse than the RT800i's they were replacing. Once I had some proper power behind them they opened up and I could appreciate all they have to offer.

Go for a minimum 200wpc from a high current source like a Parasound, Adcom, B&k, or something similar.

soccerTOOLsu

Where do you plug all this equipment into?

Just one outlet on the wall?

Already feel like I have too much in one area and that I need to distribute circuit load elsewhere.

voltz

the Denon AVR-X4000 does have preout so, you could add a amplifier to run the 2 front speakers and then your AVR would handle the back for a Home theater setup. and then either of your 2 choices would be fine

if you look around for a nice used 2 channel amplifier you maybe able to do this and not spend a lot doing it.

soccerTOOLsu

Is the Emotiva XPA-7 recommended here? I will have more power the speakers are capable for the Center, Side & Rears.

tonyb

soccerTOOLsu wrote: »

Is the Emotiva XPA-7 recommended here? I will have more power the speakers are capable for the Center, Side & Rears.

Usually not with RTI speakers. Some like them though, some not, mainly because the amp and speakers are both a bit on the brighter side. If you like that kind of sound though, rock it.

Your other concern isn't valid though. Any amp doesn't automatically put out it's rated power when you turn it on. It simply stores the power for when it's needed by the speakers. Don't pay attention to those manufacturer suggested wattage numbers, you can never have too much power, but not enough can cause problems.

Most like Parasound amps, B&k amps, Adcom, McCormack, and a few others to pair up.Most all can be had on the used markets between 4-800 bucks for 2 channel amps....which may be the way for you to go and let the receiver handle the other speakers. Don't forget some quality interconnect cables to hook it up too.

cstmar01

I've run my 9s off emo and they were too forward sounding for music etc. HT was fine with them. I have used also Parasound which for music was a great fit or Anthem which I currently run now and enjoy. Adcom worked very well too and won't break the bank for cost on the used market.

jwb0007

Hello, all. My first post, so likely inviting some "differing opinions". But, what the heck . . . .

Have been a Klipsch user for a few years, and (still) have some of the best Klipsch floor standing speakers. Absolutely love the sound quality they deliver.

However, I did purchase very recently a pair of RTi-12 speakers (very similar predecessors of the A9s) that I have positioned as my L/R speakers in a 5.1 setup. I have a great room, dining area, and adjoining kitchen that have over 7000ft3, so the area is large.

I mention all that to get to the point of this post, and address the OP's question: I have a Yamaha RX-A2030 receiver. It states a power of 140 wpc (discrete amplifiers, so as to make the power claims legitimate). While I DO NOT listen to music or HT at ear-bleeding levels by any means (am over 50. Truth is, am nearly 70, ha ha), I have not found ANY need or reason to provide greater power to/for the speakers. They seem to do superbly with the power provided. In fact, I took them in under a probationary arrangement. If I felt I needed any additional power to "open them up" or to power them properly, then they would be going back. To do all kinds of gymnastics and to throw significant additional dollars at the issue when I already have very good equipment is not what I am willing to do.

So, while I may be in the minority among the more seasoned and prolific contributors here, I simply do not understand the frequent reviews that I read about their being "power hungry", and "needing" additional power. I am delighted with their output and tonal quality at their price range--the price range I have chosen consciously.

Meanwhile, I welcome the comments of others, and may learn some things in the process!

F1nut

Welcome Jim.

It's a case of if you haven't heard them with some real power driving them then you don't know what they are capable of.

jwb0007

Thanks, F1,

When you say "real power", are you thinking of:
1. Mostly volume
2. Sound quality/subtlety/depth/breadth at ANY volume

I ask because, as I mentioned, I am not unfamiliar with good and generous sound from my very large Klipsch speakers, and yet I have not gotten my mind around the comments relating to the special power needs of some of these Polk speakers.

As I do not often listen at LOUD volumes (though I will be watching Master and Commander tomorrow night, especially for the HT effects mentioned on some sites, relative to the RTi12). So, I do not want to misunderstand, or deprive myself of what is available to me with these speakers, but I do not want to feel the need to embellish without understanding what I am doing and why.

And what the incremental gain is likely to be to me. And its cost. 'Tis me Scottish nature!

Thanks.

F1nut

Number 2.

Klipsch speakers are very efficient and present an easy load. It doesn't take much to get them going. Speakers like the Polk's with an efficiency of around 90dB take a bit more juice to wake them up. In large part, it boils down to current and an AVR with its single power supply cannot provide large amounts of current.

It states a power of 140 wpc (discrete amplifiers, so as to make the power claims legitimate).

I haven't looked around for a bench test on your AVR, but I have little doubt that once there are more than a few channels driven that wpc channel rating will drop. The reason, again, is because the power supply cannot provide large amounts of current.

F1nut

I should add a few more comments. If you set the Polk's to small and let the sub handle the bottom it will be easier on your AVR and the Polk's will sound better than running full range.

Some guys are very serious about their HT, I'm not one of them. Even though I have a fair amount of money invested in my HT rig I'm perfectly satisfied using just an AVR.

mikeyb128

I had rtia9 at one point with a hefty hk receiver hooked to them. And clipped them and **** down the receiver. Didn't damage the a9's. But proceeded to pair them with an xpa 3... Ugh how ear piercing that was.

tonyb

jwb0007 wrote: »

Thanks, F1,

When you say "real power", are you thinking of:
1. Mostly volume
2. Sound quality/subtlety/depth/breadth at ANY volume

I ask because, as I mentioned, I am not unfamiliar with good and generous sound from my very large Klipsch speakers, and yet I have not gotten my mind around the comments relating to the special power needs of some of these Polk speakers.

As I do not often listen at LOUD volumes (though I will be watching Master and Commander tomorrow night, especially for the HT effects mentioned on some sites, relative to the RTi12). So, I do not want to misunderstand, or deprive myself of what is available to me with these speakers, but I do not want to feel the need to embellish without understanding what I am doing and why.

And what the incremental gain is likely to be to me. And its cost. 'Tis me Scottish nature!

Thanks.

Nobody really adds amps for loudness. They add them for clarity, dynamics, and more so even at lower volumes.

Any speaker can benefit from good quality current fed them.....any speaker. The RTI 12's really come alive on an amp of decent quality. However if your happy as is now, why change ? All we are saying is, those speakers are capable of more. If that doesn't interest you, then rock on as is and enjoy them.

That said, we all have different ideas of what constitutes value in audio. Some have deeper pockets than others, some can't hear the smaller differences certain things make for whatever reason, and yet some still don't feel a need to try different stuff and explore their options and see what various products bring to the table. In truth, as long as your happy, stay the course your on. It's all about enjoying what your hearing, not empting your wallet.

soccerTOOLsu

So HK AVR + EMOTIVA + POLK RTIA9 is a bad combo?

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I had rtia9 at one point with a hefty hk receiver hooked to them. And clipped them and **** down the receiver. Didn't damage the a9's. But proceeded to pair them with an xpa 3... Ugh how ear piercing that was.

tonyb

soccerTOOLsu wrote: »

So HK AVR + EMOTIVA + POLK RTIA9 is a bad combo?

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I had rtia9 at one point with a hefty hk receiver hooked to them. And clipped them and **** down the receiver. Didn't damage the a9's. But proceeded to pair them with an xpa 3... Ugh how ear piercing that was.

Most will say yes, some will say no, depends on your preferences. All we can do is comment on what our individual ears tell us.

larlane

My Denon X4000 gets quite warm driving old JBL 3800's (8 ohms, 89 db) at moderate levels. I am moving my Rtia7's to replace the JBL after I purchase 705's for my main room. When I make the move, I intend to get an amp. The X4000 makes a great preamp, though.

jeremymarcinko

tonyb wrote: »

soccerTOOLsu wrote: »

So HK AVR + EMOTIVA + POLK RTIA9 is a bad combo?

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I had rtia9 at one point with a hefty hk receiver hooked to them. And clipped them and **** down the receiver. Didn't damage the a9's. But proceeded to pair them with an xpa 3... Ugh how ear piercing that was.

Most will say yes, some will say no, depends on your preferences. All we can do is comment on what our individual ears tell us.

The room is a big factor in whether Emotiva or any amp for that matter will be a successful matchup. The rich sound of the RTi's may need to be accentuated in lively rooms and Emotiva isn't the best choice. In my basement ht the room is really anechoic and the Emotiva pairs really well with the RTi, but in my den with tile flooring it would be very bad. That room called for a warmer amp and laid back speakers.

jwb0007

f1, nbrowser, tonyb in particular, I appreciate your explanations, which help me get closer to an accurate understanding.

To try to do a better job of experiencing the benefits of amp/pre-amp that you mention--and not having one just lying around--might I use another AVR as a pre-amp on the 2 front channels only, to get the dedicated and desired power to the speakers?

The speakers specs say they handle 50-500 watts of power. Would a 100-120w AVR:
1. Work?
2. Suffice?

gudnoyez

What center channel do you have? The RTIA5'S are a fine pair of speakers for fronts I have a pair with a CSIA6 center RTIA3'S as rears FxiA6 as sides. The A5's and A3's were originally hooked up to a Denon AVR 891 which powered them ok moved on to a beefier AVR a Onkyo TX-NR838 with more power, that they benefited from.

It wasn't until I added a 3 channel amp to the mix that I really noticed the difference 200 watts makes they sounded like they were intended to sound. I would love a pair of A9s but really don't need them give some proper power to your A5's you will be surprised of the difference in sound quality.

soccerTOOLsu

I have the CSiA6

Electrical - Efficiency 90 dB
Electrical - Lower -3dB Limit 55 Hz
Electrical - Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Electrical - Recommended Amplifier Power 20-200 watts per channel

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk.

A receiver is a amp/preamp combo. If your receiver has preouts, then all you need is an amp. I always recommend one that is at least 200wpc @ 8ohms. That seems to be the power range that just about everyone hears a clear and distinct improvement.

Your receiver would than just be acting as a preamp since the power for the speakers would be coming from the amp.

As you noted, to your ears currently, your receiver is doing just fine driving your speakers, but those of us who have moved up to separate amplification, know that they can sound a whole lot better and I'm not talking louder.

I spent days going through my cd collection after I got my Parasound 1500A amp just to finally hear all the fine details in my albums that I had never heard before either with my Denon receiver or when my speakers were powered by a 50wpc Rotel amp.

Once I heard the difference, I vowed never to go back to just a receiver powering my speakers.

Buying a powerful amp is an expense that is well worth it, and you can use it on any speakers you have now and in the future.

Check out www.audiogon.com for some used amps.

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/multi-ch-outlaw-audio-7500-2015-10-25-amplifiers-93710-fresno-ca

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-b-and-k-reference-5-s2-preamp-reference-200-2-power-amp-2015-10-30-cables-91301-oak-park-ca

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-polk-audio-lsi-9-bookshelf-parasound-hca-1200-mkii-amp-drives-it-is-avaiable-2015-10-19-speakers-08081-sicklerville-nj

jwb0007

cfrizz, getting the picture. The explanations have cumulative and overlapping effect.

So, I had better save my lunch money for an amp w/ at least 200 wpc, right?

F1nut

Agh, it's not wpc, it's CURRENT that matters.

deronb1

Are you currently upset Jess?

tonyb

nbrowser wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Agh, it's not wpc, it's CURRENT that matters.

And why do you think I mentioned current in my post?

Knew we raised you right, LOL !!

tonyb

jwb0007 wrote: »

f1, nbrowser, tonyb in particular, I appreciate your explanations, which help me get closer to an accurate understanding.

To try to do a better job of experiencing the benefits of amp/pre-amp that you mention--and not having one just lying around--might I use another AVR as a pre-amp on the 2 front channels only, to get the dedicated and desired power to the speakers?

The speakers specs say they handle 50-500 watts of power. Would a 100-120w AVR:
1. Work?
2. Suffice?

UH...no. Another AVR is not what we are talking about. You can get a used amp Like a Parasound 1200, 1500 for around 400 bucks. B&k is also another brand of good choice that for the same price, you could always re-sell and not lose any money by trying them out.

You would also need 2 rca cables of decent quality to hook up a 2 channel amp. MIT AVT series, Kimber PBJ, Morrow MA3, Acoustic zen Wow, or real cheap is Signal cable analog 2's. Just some examples of what to look for.

cfrizz

jwb0007 wrote: »

cfrizz, getting the picture. The explanations have cumulative and overlapping effect.

So, I had better save my lunch money for an amp w/ at least 200 wpc, right?

For me personally I would say yes. I like to keep things simple, since all speaker/receiver/amp companies talk about wpc, that is the same language that I talk in.

Jesse and company can go on forever about current, voltage blah blah blah all day long. The truth is that all of this stuff is very complicated, but if you have a high wpc amp, then more than likely you will also have an amp that has high current.

Now they will jump on this statement and say tube gear is totally different and you don't require a lot of wpc to get outstanding results. Not to mention that if you did get a tube amp with that much power you would have to spend several thousands of dollars to do so.

There are ALWAYS exceptions to everything. But the bottom line is what you want to achieve (having your speakers operate to their full potential) for the amount of money you are willing to spend, and how much of your money's worth do you get out of your purchase.

For me that means an separate amp of at least 200 wpc, and I'm talking about an amp that is built for home use not concerts. This will power just about any speaker you can have now and in the future and last you for decades.

62caddy

xcapri79 wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Agh, it's not wpc, it's CURRENT that matters.

There is a little more to it than that. I explained this back in April.

xcapri79 wrote: »

There is a lot of discussion about watts and amps from an amplifier. I wanted to show the fundamental relationship between watts, amps, volts and speaker impedance so that we can understand how this basically works.

A speaker represents a complex impedance load to the amp. It will appear as a different impedances depending on the frequency of the audio signal. At lower frequencies, the speaker will typically offer a lower impedance to a speaker requiring more current for a given power output. That is why you may need more power to drive a bass speaker.



It is a little more complicated than this, because the ear hears different frequencies at differing loudness for a given power which adds to this effect and each speaker has its own efficiency in which it converts power into sound.

So when you hear people say that you need a high current amp, this is an amp that can provide a suitably high current complex audio signal (source) to meet the frequency dependent impedance demands of the speaker (load). Quality watts means that the amp can more faithfully provide undistorted power (voltage and current) to the complex speaker load over a broad frequency range.

Hard to drive speakers are typically speakers that are of lower efficiency and offer lower impedances, i.e. nominal 4 ohm vs nominal 8 ohm impedance. The beautiful sounding Polk Audio LSi9 is typical of this. With a good amp like a McIntosh MC202, these speakers sound wonderful. With a poor amp like that of a typical AVR, they are not nearly as good and the amp may in fact shut down if played too loud.

All amps are not the same and you typically get what you pay for. This is why others have suggested alternative amps to the OP.

That said, it is difficult to understand why it so imperative that the RTiA9 be used with a particularly high current amplifier than that needed for any other 8ohm loudspeaker of similar sensitivity.

I will concede however that despite the near identical sensitivity specification of both the RTiA7 & RTiA9, the A9 does not seem to generate nearly the same SPL as the A7 at a given input which I found puzzling. I can only attribute this to more power being consumed by the A9's bass drivers whose LF output would be more likely to be detected by an SPL meter than the human ear when compared to the midrange frequencies.

In any case, I do agree that the A9 seems to have a voracious appetite for power. It can absorb seemingly endless amounts of power without strain and ask for more. The reward for its apparent lowish sensitivity is truly authoritative, and profound LF output which I would estimate in the 30Hz region. (I don't recall the exact spec)

I run my A9s with a 150 wpc McIntosh amplifier with high current capability; it even has output taps for 1(!) ohm and I could not ask for more. However my A9 serve only the rears in a system of 6 speakers in all. (Fronts are a pair of A7s and a pair of the last series Snell J7).

In another system consisting of a single pair of A9s, are more powerful amplifier might be desirable if you want to recreate earthquakes and explosions of the latest action movie. (I watch TCM so that wouldn't apply to me. lol!)

Interestingly, an AK member uses a pair of tube McIntosh MC60s with his A9s and he's very happy with the setup. Go figure...

jwb0007

Very Informative and helpful comments. It is/will sink in--albeit slowly . . . .