Rti A9 vs the Discount Amplifier

Oldskool

Hi guys so for years I've been using a:

Harmon Kardon Avr 125 (55 wpc 2 channels driven, 45 wpc 5 channels driven)
r50 fronts
csi30 front
merak mt150 rears
subwoofer ate it
bit this system has served me well as I had it all assembled before I even owned a car haha,

So recently I aquired a pair of Rti A9's (for 300$/ea Canadian!!! boxing day doorcrasher)
Should have bought 4 honestly but I was wary about them at first. Should have bought 4 though haha.

Anyway, I don't really watch movies loud so when I'm cranking the stereo it's for music.
I currently have everything else unhooked and am just running the Rti A9's with the Avr.

I tried them for weeks using just the front channels with all the other speakers set to off and they sound great but start losing their low end at high volume. I never tried bi-amping becauyse I've read that it doesn't work, Got curious tonight and decided to try anyways.

I did some research and this amp can only put out 55 wpc MAX or 45 wpc (all 5 driven)

As a result I've bi-amped them and used the front channels to power the bottom half's
(3 ... 7 inch woofers) with the subwoofer setting to output Front (L/R) to add a few more hz onto the very low end.

The sound is much clearer and feels like alot more headroom until about -10dB . But anything louder the bottom end of the speakers start to lose power. (slightly earlier than in stereo. But the lower listening volume is much much better bi-amped.)
So I don't think it's not that it doesn't work. But that it may not be as loud but I can get more reserve power at lower volumes Bi-amped for more intense crescendo's etc.

Really noticed the clarity difference listening to Lindsey Stirlings Phantom of the Opera and Blitzen Trappers Black River Killer.

ps I should note at this point this entire stereo has never let me down at any point. (Other than the sub but that was a failed experiment with a bass guitar and not the subwoofers fault.

Anyways. I'm looking for some real power for my Rti A9';s as the receiver seems to be able to drive the rest of the speakers just fine, although a Receiver upgrade is in the near future.
(Yes I know Center Channel Upgrade is definitely the next step)

So... Has anyone had any experience with the discount amp brands like
Behringer inuke-3000 etc etc and is their sound quality any good.

Also if you had no neighbours haha... how much power can these speakers really handle to make them sing. I mean, they say they're rated for 50-500, tried them with 55 and they sing, but there is almost no visual movement in the woofers. Where the r50's wired to the 55 wpc are almost exploding out of their cabinet.

so:
1: would I notice a major difference between 250 wpc and 500 wpc standalone amp and how
2: is say a high powered AVR (let's say 120 wpc all channels driven) ever going to push these to their true potential.
3: Would I be better off to get a 5 or 7 channel power amp and run it through my current HK 125, or.... get a 2 channel power amp for the Rti A9's and a new 7 channel receiver and set up my old merak's as the 6th and 7th.
4: Are the emotiva etc amps that much better than the behrigner or other low price extreme wattage brands.
5: Has anyone tried running these with an old high powered tube amp and what was the results.

Thanks guys. Also anything related to imrproving the quality of these speakers sound would be amazing. I've noticed spacing from walls is important and luckily they are in my basement with good spacing from walls etc and all solid walls around them (concrete with framing)


Any other suggestions would be amazing thank you.

Oldskool

Also this is my first post even though i bought my first polks many many years ago when I was 14 dishwashing at a catering company haha

Nightfall

Off topic a bit, how much higher than -10db are you going? With what sounds like a pretty weak power supply I assume you're really pushing the envelope as far as clipping. Be careful, good luck!

62caddy

Visible woofer movement is not desirable because that means it is distorting. Cone movement of the RTi A7 and A9 is very minimal even at very high SPL levels at low frequency. This is indicative of the excellent design of the speakers.

Personally I never cared much for multichannel amplification devices - whether AVRs or power amplifiers. These devices are rated very differently than standard two-channel units which fall under the older, but more stringent standard of FTC Power Ratings of 1974.

I run my own A9s with a McIntosh 150 wpc amplifier but only as the rears - for which 150 - 200 wpc of the MC 2155 is plenty since there are 3 pairs of speakers in the system. In any case, I strongly recommend a good quality power amplifier in order to obtain the best performance from the A9s.

I also feel you'd be better off with solid state amplification with the A9.

Oldskool

@Nightfall I don't know what it is about this Karmon Amp. But if I'm listening to Techno or anything, with the rtia9 wired as the fronts and all other speakers off, A song like Bangarang (skrillex) will go to -3 before any loss of the low end occurs and there isn't audible distortion until about +5, Waters of Nazareth by Justice on the other hand is completely clean (if you can call it that) all the way up to about +7 and only minorly starts losing form at around +10. But these songs perform along a very linear sound field (aka Anything with a full orchesta or something begins losing clarity much sooner)

With the old setup ( r50 front, csi30 mid, merak rears (w/15 inch woofers, 3 1/2 mid, and horn tweeters) I would routinely run the amp in the -3 -> +5 range on all types of music with no distortion, it's done me really well over the years.

Also the amp has never clipped once but I've also never fooled around with the impedance and always stuck strictly with 8 ohm speakers for it.

Oldskool

@62caddy First off nice car. Nice system too. Thanks for the advice on amps and I was also thinking that solid state is the way to go.

One of my main original questions was actually whether or not anyone had actually tried the cheaper pro amps that are now available, especially if anyone has tried the class D ones with (near zero heat) tech that means they don't require fans and as a result don't really make noise.
If so is the sound comparable to say a Parasound or other high end amp etc.

Oldskool

Ok I'll probably make a new thread for this. Just got a great deal on HK new 1710s receiver which claims 100wpc all channels driven (7) using 7 separate discrete amps. I havn't received the avr yet but noticed on their website it can only draw 510 watts AC from the wall...
Ifeel like Im missing something here as how can you draw only 500ish watts and output 700.
Also I was torn between the onkyo 737 and HK1710s. I could getthem for the same price even though the onkyo base price is a little more I went with the HK because mine has been pure gold. Also the HK has two subwoofer pre outs so I ordered two psw125 subs to go along with it.
Has anyone had any experience with the new switching greentech in this line of HK (1500, 1600, 1700 series And will it perform as well as my classic avr125

Oldskool

Ps still amping the rtiA9 bi amped with the old receiver and somehow no issues yet

F1nut

You aren't missing anything. There is only ONE power supply, all 7 channels (not amplifiers) draw from it and as you noted, the math doesn't add up.

In addition, you were never bi-amping.

Oldskool

@F1nut thank you for quick reply. I was wondering if the watts drawn at 120v were maybe more than ths watts put ouf at speaker volts. Also if anyone has the amps or current this amp can produce id appreciate it. ok this is tsking forever and im half cut so im not gonna fix all thenspekking mistakes from here on...
My original HK 125 puts out 55wpc 2 channek driven and 45 wpc all channels. The amp can put out 235 watts total. But never more than 55wpc.... so, even though no biamping feature, I had the choice of 55 real wpc per speaker, or giving 45 wpc to the top and bottoms of each A9, I have stated that the overalk volume was lowered with biamping, but up to about -10 on receiver the dynamic volume changes were much more noticeable with 45 watts going to top end and bottom end than the 55wpc trying to power both speakers. I understand it doesnt work with most amps/receiveds but it seems this one actually loved it.

Nightfall

Your tweeters are never going to use more than a couple of watts, in the single digits.

Oldskool

@nightfall I understand tweeters use very little lower but ive also heard they are the first things to fry when underpowered... the explanation I was given is say you have a 100 watt (min) woofer getting 95 watts its only missing 5 watts aka 5 %, whereas lets say your 8 watt tweeter is also missing 5 watts thats like 60-70% offrequired power and they fry... why isnt there better regulations onamp power haha

Oldskool

Ps drinking tonight for christmas and using n old tablet on dsl wifi so lag plus drinks equals sp3lling errors and I apologize

Nightfall

Oldskool wrote: »

@nightfall I understand tweeters use very little lower but ive also heard they are the first things to fry when underpowered... the explanation I was given is say you have a 100 watt (min) woofer getting 95 watts its only missing 5 watts aka 5 %, whereas lets say your 8 watt tweeter is also missing 5 watts thats like 60-70% offrequired power and they fry... why isnt there better regulations onamp power haha

Huh? Using less power than a driver or pair of speakers is "rated" for isn't a problem. Clipping is.

Oldskool

But I've heard it's much easier to fry any driver or speaker by unDerpowering rather than overpowering

F1nut

How about you resume posting when you're not drunk.

ken brydson

F1nut wrote: »

How about you resume posting when you're not drunk.

Crap, then I'd never post...

Oldskool

lmao @ken brydson also my whole point of this post f1nut is to find out how much actual power I can get from an hk 1710s... current per channel woukd be nice. Also how about you repost when youve learned to have fun ah haha.... no b6t actaully thank you for quick feedback and at least my drunken posts are better than most 18 year olds grasp on the english language.......

Oldskool

Also available current per ch for the onkyo 737 and hk 1710s would be amazing I work with my hands and dont know enough science to figure it out

ken brydson

Oldskool wrote: »

lmao @ken brydson also my whole point of this post f1nut is to find out how much actual power I can get from an hk 1710s... current per channel woukd be nice. Also how about you repost when youve learned to have fun ah haha.... no b6t actaully thank you for quick feedback and at least my drunken posts are better than most 18 year olds grasp on the english language.......

Keep a happy thought. I'm pretty buzzed and can't find my secret decoder ring.

Oldskool

Lmao love this community. Not even looking for better performance but Wouldn't complain.... I am completely satisfied with current performance as have never heard better, what I really want is similar performance from a9 with centre abd rear also driven... I know its asking alot of budget avrs but it's so rare that I'm not just listening in stereo and with the addition of two subs I feel there has to be oneofout there.?..

If you had to choose between 737 and 1710s what would be your choice

Oldskool

Ps music will almost always be stereo through a9, just the odd movie 5.1 and usually at lower volumes

txcoastal1

nbrowser wrote: »

Oldskool wrote: »

If you had to choose between 737 and 1710s what would be your choice

Neither as I'd opt for more features like pre-outs, 838 for the win!

Yup...leave yourself some room to grow

ken brydson

Oldskool wrote: »

Lmao love this community. Not even looking for better performance but Wouldn't complain.... I am completely satisfied with current performance as have never heard better, what I really want is similar performance from a9 with centre abd rear also driven... I know its asking alot of budget avrs but it's so rare that I'm not just listening in stereo and with the addition of two subs I feel there has to be oneofout there.?..

If you had to choose between 737 and 1710s what would be your choice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTSk5cbaZso

Oldskool

ok so I agree the 838 ftw..... love it.. but.., I can get 737 for about 300 'murican but 838 is close to 900.... now I know the zone2/3 if applicable (<- terrible english word) only works for analog input but moSt of my music will be oldskool aka phono or that new sht (not mp3 but the hi def sht) will be hooked up stereo via analog.... if actually needed the zone 3 outs could be used to
power separate amp for analog stereo secondary amp listening,,,,,,........... I feel like noone is hearing me Hahahahahaha. ...... I basically dont want to lose quality, but dont need an upgrade.?... I just need something that can switch hdmi sources and power 5 speakers near -20 for movies.... and can adequately power stereo music is most importsnt... with my current 55wpc max avr 125 being almost godlike in sound quality compared to everything ive ever heard.

Oldskool

So even if the new hk 1710s gives only 100 wpc stereo and they're The same watts as my 55wpc hk now wouldn't I notice a significant improvement? ?????

txcoastal1

Sounds like you convinced yourself, so no reason to beat the dead horse

Enjoy

Oldskool

Thanks @nbrowser I agree would love to wake them up But just can't right now.?. All im looking for is similar to my current quality setup (to which im adding two psw125 subs vs no subs now) and I know this is audiophile sacrilege but all I really need right now is something that can switch modern video signals without sacrificing any audio quality.... I know what I need to really make these sing and is not in the current budget... basically when oil prices go back up the whole system is getting moved upstairs and dedicated amps going on Main systems,.... everyone keeps saying no.... You need to spend thousands to get a good sound. When my 15 year old 300 dollar amp gives amazing sound.... so I cant reonrase this anymore... oh but wait... lets say I dint have a9s... I just have lower end speakers... is the onkyo 737 or hk 1710s the better reciever.... regardless of speaksrs one of these is better for some reason.... and why... holy fk asking the same question 10 times and getting 10 answers to Questions I didnt ask is helpful............

Inspector 24

If I may infer based on many board member's experiences that sound very similar, you have what you believe is amazing sound when in fact you haven't heard how good the A9's can sound with proper power.

That said, I see where you need video switching capability and want to maintain sound quality, given mine and other member's experience I doubt you will see any large differences between various AVR's until you go to separate amps with the A9's.

If you want an improvement in sound quality, sell the A9's, use the money to buy A5's and a Yamaha Aventage 1000 series. They're much easier to drive and thus will sound better than the A9's on an AVR.

tonyb

Oldskool wrote: »

Thanks @nbrowser I agree would love to wake them up But just can't right now.?. All im looking for is similar to my current quality setup (to which im adding two psw125 subs vs no subs now) and I know this is audiophile sacrilege but all I really need right now is something that can switch modern video signals without sacrificing any audio quality.... I know what I need to really make these sing and is not in the current budget... basically when oil prices go back up the whole system is getting moved upstairs and dedicated amps going on Main systems,.... everyone keeps saying no.... You need to spend thousands to get a good sound. When my 15 year old 300 dollar amp gives amazing sound.... so I cant reonrase this anymore... oh but wait... lets say I dint have a9s... I just have lower end speakers... is the onkyo 737 or hk 1710s the better reciever.... regardless of speaksrs one of these is better for some reason.... and why... holy fk asking the same question 10 times and getting 10 answers to Questions I didnt ask is helpful............

Your just not listening to the answers.....because they aren't what you want to hear.

Any modern receiver will give you hdmi and video switching. Most all entry level receivers will sound roughly the same. Yamaha Advantage line, Pioneer SC line, Onkyo 7 or 8 series on up, HK higher end series is where you should be looking in the receiver world.

Your problem is you bought the wrong speakers for the gear you wish to use with them, and that's what the guys are trying to tell you. They are also trying to tell you if you wish to keep those speakers, you don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get them to sound good, nor should you be cranking them up to -10 on a low powered receiver. You'd be better served with an easier to drive speaker than the 9's....like the A5's or 7's.

If nothing is in your budget right now, the only option you have is to keep the volume down until you can afford some changes, otherwise you may toast them by pushing them loud with that receiver.

Oldskool

Thank you @Inspector 24 and also @tonyb there is 4 years left on the "dropkick warranty" I have on the a9 so destruction is not a problem... I wish I could hear the a9 through a real amp maybe then Id have a better grasp of the situation.