Buying and Selling Rules - Discuss

Jimbo18

I don't know what the rule should be. I am a relative newbie here compared to most and I have only bought one item from the FM (thanks halo/victor) and haven't tried to sell anything. I lean towards the idea of 100 posts to sell and some kind of time frame like 90 days for buyers regardless of their post count.

But I know I wouldn't want to trust anyone on here that hadn't had a fair number of posts so that I could read them and hopefully tell what they are like a little. Like John Megadeath, I have a long history of sales and perfect feedback on eBay, so you can read something about me if you were to purchase something there, but on here, the only thing you could tell about me is what I have written in previous posts and base your trust on that.

As far as selling to those with very few posts, that would make me a little nervous, but if they use a postal money order, not PayPal, I guess I would do it as long as I felt the older members had several weeks to buy it first.

daddyjt

As a moderator for another audio forum, I recognize many of the struggles I see voiced here.

Ultimately, it comes down to this - Anything you do to provide "favored status" to a select group of members (In this case, longevity) will run the risk of limiting incoming membership, as they will feel like second-class citizens. Not saying it's right or wrong, just stating fact.

As for the buying and selling, I would ask what is the goal of the "FM"? If the goal is to provide your members with a place to sell their gear, then it's counter productive to limit their potential buyers, based on post count. However, if your goal is to provide "deals" to the inside echelon, then it is prudent to restrict the number of potential buyers.

As for risk to potential buyers/sellers, that is not the job of the forum or its management team, IMHO - Those are sticky waters that you want no part of.

Just my thoughts, from an understanding viewpoint....

scubalab

I was going to keep quiet on this topic, but opinions matter. And, quite honestly, I see validity in EVERY opinion posted thus far. I have mixed feelings on the whole thing...

I've been an official member for about 5 and a half years. However, I frequented the forum, read posts, gained knowledge, and learned about audio for MANY years (10 give or take) prior to that. Back then, I believe I had access to the FM, just couldn't buy or sell since I wasn't a member. At some point, they blocked access to the FM until you were a member with 25 posts. I joined, had some questions, got great advice, and drooled over some things in the FM - my financial situation at the time (just starting a family) didn't allow for this hobby to take off at that point in my life! A few years ago, after some time away from the forum, I couldn't get on the FM anymore. At some point, the post count required to even SEE the items was raised to 100. Admittedly, I was slightly frustrated. I WAS READY TO BUY, d@mn-it! (I could be slightly wrong on exactly when and how the 'rules' evolved', but my fleeting memory recalls something like that.) At that point, I became more active, and even tried to speed up the track to 100 posts by posting what I was listening to, sharing birthday wished, and opinions. I got called out, and that bothered me. I almost gave up, but bit my tongue, stuck around, and eventually got to know some great people. I've bought and sold a few things here. EVERY transaction was great. I then realized that was the case because of the people on this forum... NOT the products, NOT vBulletin or Vanilla, and not necessarily the rules.

So, in my opinion, if the sticky at the beginning of the FM is a RULE, it is what it is. If Vanilla can't automatically enforce it like vBulletin did, then it is up to the members to do so. If anyone can gain access now to the FM via a Google search, chances are, they go RIGHT to the item Google found for them and do NOT read the sticky. Additionally, that sticky is dated... there is no longer a "member sales rating"! What does jump out at me and holds true no matter what the 'rule' is or how dated the sticky may be is the fact that "All sales are at your own risk". That said, I feel the seller has any right to do whatever he wants to move his merchandise. If someone finds them on this forum through a Google search, gets chased away, and the seller chooses to deal with them outside of the FM post, that is their right (and at their risk).

I will say that I continue to read complaints that membership is down, participation is down, and that the FM is dead. Well, to be honest, many folks who find the forum through Google looking for an item are potential new members and may become assets to the forum. Yes, there are some who are just looking for a deal and will move on.

Prime example... yesterday, a BRAND new member posted an ad selling his Polk speakers. I politely explained the rules, and guess what? He actually contacted me via PM and it turns out that he's a nice person and it was recommended to try selling his speakers on this forum by two of his family members who used to be active members. I welcomed him, and hopefully he sticks around long enough to gain the trust, respect, and privilege to sell. He made an honest mistake in haste, but apologized for it. That thread has since been deleted (rightfully so), but I have to wonder if that potential new member was permanently scared away. What I'm saying is we still need to welcome potential new members. We also need to remember that they ARE new, and are learning their way. There is a cordial way to welcome them, AND politely direct them to the rules and guidelines of the forum. There are many people who say things in a way that (although maybe not intentionally) comes off as harsh and intimidating. If we truly do want participation up and new members to join, we need to make them feel welcome. It doesn't take long to judge someone's character, if they aren't a fit for this forum and their motives are bad, it won't take long to figure that out... Just need to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least initially.

Wow... that was WAY to lengthy!

Toolfan66

tonyb wrote: »

rooftop59 wrote: »

Opening up the fm a bit might bring in some new folks.

You really think so ? I know a few of you keep bringing that point up but I disagree. Polk products are what will bring people here, not the ability to buy or sell used gear. There's just too many avenues to do that.

Maybe that's a reflection of Polk products ? I don't know, but I think our lack of membership is due to many things.

Lack of leadership from Polk
Failure to advertise the forum
Competition is more stiff these days
Vanilla
Economy

I fail to see how opening the FM to anyone will benefit the forum except to serve a few self interests. Just because some Joe Schmoe comes here to buy something doesn't mean he's here for the conversation or audio in general.

Look at how many members have been here awhile....and barely participate anymore. Then look at the economy....then look at the products being offered. Lets face it, audio is not the first priority of many. Quality audio even less.
Plus some have just moved on to other products and forums that cater to the more higher end. The lack of membership is the sign of the times. Selling your gear to any Tom,Dick and Harry isn't going to change that.

So far, what I'm hearing is sour grapes from a few that can't sell their items. Some even have their items listed on other sites and still can't sell them. To me, that's more so a sign of the times rather than our rules being outdated. To change the rules for the many to accommodate the few seems silly to me.

BTW, I too have had stuff sit in the FM.....heck I couldn't get any bites on some cables for 40 bucks, half price of new. I gave them away to another member. I like the 100 posts to sell, 50 to buy suggestions, some sort of rule to keep the riff raff out anyway.

Ask yourself this too.....why are you here ? Because our membership is huge....or small ? To sell or buy stuff ? Because you think Polk products are God among men ?

No.....your here because of the people and their vast knowledge of all things audio. Your here because of the friends you've made, and value their opinions. Those that want to be part of that are welcome as newbies, those that just want to sell or buy stuff aren't so much. Seems to me opening the FM to anyone also opens us up to an even bigger amount of trolls.

Well said as always Tony..

I think this Vanilla crap has done more harm then good with the participation in this place...

tonyb

Daddyjt makes a good point. What is the purpose of the FM ? I think I already stated what that was, for members to give other members great deals not normally found elsewhere. If we want to keep it that way, some controls are necessary. If we don't, then open it up.

Not really rocket science here, pretty basic imho. Personally....I'd vote to keep some sort of controls on it.

motorhead43026

I was rather new here and replied to a buy, sell situation without the required post count. I was not aware of any rules for either @ the time. Needless to say I almost told a couple members here to "F" off, and leaving the forum.

polk500

What I'm saying is we still need to welcome potential new members. We also need to remember that they ARE new, and are learning their way. There is a cordial way to welcome them, AND politely direct them to the rules and guidelines of the forum. There are many people who say things in a way that (although maybe not intentionally) comes off as harsh and intimidating. If we truly do want participation up and new members to join, we need to make them feel welcome. It doesn't take long to judge someone's character, if they aren't a fit for this forum and their motives are bad, it won't take long to figure that out... Just need to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least initially.

Wow... that was WAY to lengthy! [/quote]


Good post scubalab,

And I agree that we should be more welcoming to new members, because some of the replies I read over the years to people trying to buy or sell on this forum without the required number of posts have been quite blunt to say the least. And I'm sure it left a bad impression about Polk and the people who frequent this forum.

Roger

Mikey081057

If the issue with the post count qualifier can't be fixed (and I am sure it could be fixed by someone who knew wtf they were doing) then this issue will continue to be problematic from an enforcement perspective. I agree with Motorhead tho that tact and patience needs to be used when alerting new members of the rules. A statement of the rules that is cleared by the forum admin should be sent to all new members on sign up; the forum admin should be the one who handles those situations with new users who are trying to jump the rules. After all a member here could piss off a potential customer for Polk and I am sure Polk does not want to have members chase customers away.

daddyjt

Ok, I give up - What is "vanilla"? I thought I could discover through Google, but no...

Mikey081057

vanilla is the forum platform that is now in use. vbulletin is the legacy forum platform

daddyjt

Mikey081057 wrote: »

vanilla is the forum platform that is now in use. vbulletin is the legacy forum platform

Thanks - I was thinking it was an auction site for audio gear that I was unaware of

PSOVLSK

Instead of other forum members posting in the thread about the rules, another solution could be that the seller could pm the interested party and thank them for their interest in the item, but let them know the 100 post rule. Additionally, they could let them know that if the item doesn't sell in a timely manner (1 month?) then they would be happy to discuss selling the item...outside the forum if necessary.

vcwatkins

I would:

• Open FM to buyers regardless of post count
• Keep min for sellers - 100 is reasonable
• Ask/encourage sellers to:
  • be explicit re their buyer qualifications - post count, year joined, special discount for long-timers, none
  • be explicit re other terms - I'm amazed how little useful info is in many listings
  • link to external feedback pages - eBay, Audiogon, USAudio Mart - as I did here . (similar to US Audio Mart's integrated external feedback although it looks like Audiogon integration has been disabled).
• Ask/encourage buyers to post seller feedback in the FM listing thread with "@sellername seller feedback" in the message so buyers' remarks can easily be searched.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Daddyjt makes a good point. What is the purpose of the FM ? I think I already stated what that was, for members to give other members great deals not normally found elsewhere. If we want to keep it that way, some controls are necessary. If we don't, then open it up.

Not really rocket science here, pretty basic imho. Personally....I'd vote to keep some sort of controls on it.

That's been shot in the foot with vanilla. You can't give a good deal to forum members anymore because if they don't buy, you can't sell it anywhere else since the price is now visible to anyone. Besides, whats the point of giving a good deal if nobody will buy?

.

Well, if nobody will buy it...here, then move it someplace else. Is that so hard ? We need to change the forum to accommodate a few slow movers ?

Economy is suck right now, too many things tugging at the wallet, less jobs, less good paying jobs, and cost of living going north. Forces people to prioritize.....and guess where audio toys falls on that totem pole.

I understand the aggravation, having a well priced item sit with no interest, but you do have options to move it elsewhere that may have a bigger exposure to more people. What I'm hearing is you don' want to do that, but instead bring the mass amounts of people here.....along with the trolls and knuckleheads. Doesn't make sense to me Skip, no offense....

rooftop59

vcwatkins wrote: »

I would:

• Open FM to buyers regardless of post count
• Keep min for sellers - 100 is reasonable
• Ask/encourage sellers to:
  • be explicit re their buyer qualifications - post count, year joined, special discount for long-timers, none
  • be explicit re other terms - I'm amazed how little useful info is in many listings
  • link to external feedback pages - eBay, Audiogon, USAudio Mart - as I did here . (similar to US Audio Mart's integrated external feedback although it looks like Audiogon integration has been disabled).
• Ask/encourage buyers to post seller feedback in the FM listing thread with "@sellername seller feedback" in the message so buyers' remarks can easily be searched.

I think this is a very solid framework overall.

mrbiron

How is it that nobody can code "Vanilla" like vBulletin so that you can't access an area without proper credentials (posts, membership)?

Selling 100 posts.
Buying is up to the discretion of the seller. If he wants to take a shot on Johnny-1-post then so be it. I've seen many a member attack like rabid dogs at the site of a guy with 1 post in the FM. If you want people to stay around, back the F up and let the seller decide for himself. Besides, how often do single post guys actually show up? not worth it....

That's all i got....

PSOVLSK

tonyb wrote: »

We need to change the forum to accommodate a few slow movers ?

The problem is that's it's way more than a few slow movers. I was on vacation and didn't check the forum from Saturday-Thursday...and the FM hadn't moved but about half a page (the first post on Friday night was about halfway down the list by the following Thursday afternoon.)

rooftop59

DSkip wrote: »

It's less about bringing them here than not running them off. As indicated by motorhead, he almost left, never to come back after being chastised for something he had no clue about. The attitude is all wrong when it comes to enforcement. Even if we can adopt some new way to enforce it I'll be happy. We come across as holier than thou way too often. If we keep it up and a member drops here and there, eventually the forum will be no more.

Trolls, knuckleheads, they'll come and go. We have to risk that though to build up a community again.

I agree.

And FYI, this isn't about a couple guys being ticked off because they can't sell something. If any of us really had to sell the item, we'd move it elsewhere. I don't think anyone letting an item sit for 30+ days is starving or not paying the rent lol...

The membership point is this: for a lot of us, a vibrant FM was and is one of the main draws of the forum. Even when I can't afford or don't need anything, I love seeing the great deals, it makes me do research, thing about future upgrades I want to make, etc. And when I am in the market for something, you know the first place I am going...

So yes, I think that a vibrant FM matters for membership overall, and at the very least we shouldn't scare people off with it...

Kurt300

Suggestion: Linked Template Response - A carefully crafted, brief and diplomatic statement could be created, welcoming new members, explaining that they do not yet meet the criteria for FM participation, educating them and encouraging them to get more involved. This could then be linked as a reply each time a noob tried to participate without meeting the criteria. This could eliminate the problem of perceived abruptness from individuals trying to convey this themselves in a 1-off message, and retain more new users. It may even be possible to set as an auto-reply for anyone posting in the FM with less than 100 posts.

Second, just stop being jerks to the noobs in your other interactions.

I think the first item is easily achievable.

vmaxer

I'm with you fellers.....

http://youtu.be/wYXFSbLotSU

Kurt300

Here is a draft if someone wants to improve upon it:

Welcome to the Polk Audio Forum! Thank you for your interest in our Flea Market area. Unfortunately, you do not yet have the minimum required postings to buy and sell items. We find that requiring a minimum of 100 posts allows us to get to know you a bit, and get a comfort level before buying or selling here. Please do stay and participate - not only will you learn a lot, but we want to learn what you know as well, and welcome you into a community that helps one another in this great hobby, as well as offers members substantial savings in acquiring quality used audio equipment from other people in our community.

vmaxer

Kurt300 wrote: »

Here is a draft if someone wants to improve upon it:

Welcome to the Polk Audio Forum! Thank you for your interest in our Flea Market area. Unfortunately, you do not yet have the minimum required postings to buy and sell items. We find that requiring a minimum of 100 posts allows us to get to know you a bit, and get a comfort level before buying or selling here. Please do stay and participate - not only will you learn a lot, but we want to learn what you know as well, and welcome you into a community that helps one another in this great hobby, as well as offer members substantial savings in acquiring quality used audio equipment from people you can trust.

Sounds good to me, good luck getting it implemented. Not meant sarcastic.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

Trolls, knuckleheads, they'll come and go. We have to risk that though to build up a community again.

Eh....I know where your coming from but given the lightning fast way we dispose of the trolls and boneheads, not so sure that's a great idea. How long did it take for the last one again ?

Vanilla is limited to what it can do so some suggestions are out right off the bat. The FM does state to read the rules before posting. If you can't do that, not so sure adding more warning labels is going to accomplish much.

Rules scare people away ? Reminding folks of the rules scare people away ? If some are too stupid to read the rules, or abide by them, do we really want that person as a member ? Just to make a sale ? Your premise is to....in order to attract new members we must forgo the rules ?

We view the forum differently then. The FM is a privilege for members in good standing, not an open Craigslist. Membership, and it's decline or increase is a separate issue, not one beholden to whether or not someone can buy or sell in the FM. Just my .02 on it.

oldrocker

I just hope a happy "medium" can be found.

Kurt300

I edited out the explicit "people you can trust", to avoid any implied warranty from the forum or Polk. Now I'll (try to) shut up and see what you all think.

tonyb

Ok...so we no longer have the software doing the restriction.....so then it's up to us, isn't it ? I hope your not telling me we can't do something because a software program won't do it for us.....or because it won't do it for us, we need to throw the doors wide open.

rooftop59

tonyb wrote: »

The FM does state to read the rules before posting. If you can't do that, not so sure adding more warning labels is going to accomplish much.

If you are looking for a used say, Parasound HCA 1200ii, and you google it, google very well might lead you DIRECTLY to the the listing. There are NO RULES that you would see unless you thought to yourself, "I wonder if there are any rules here?" As someone who ONLY frequents this forum (literally), prior to my membership here I had no idea there might be such rules. Its an internet forum for goodness sake, not an effing kindergarden class.

tonyb wrote: »

Rules scare people away ? Reminding folks of the rules scare people away ?

If they are unknown or unreasonable rules, then yes. If you do it rudely, then yes.

tonyb wrote: »

We view the forum differently then. The FM is a privilege for members in good standing, not an open Craigslist.

Yes, its privilege to SELL on the forum, and it can be a privilege to buy on the forum if the SELLER wants to offer a deal to members in good standing. Its not a privilege if there is no one to sell to. Period.

Kurt300

rooftop59 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

The FM does state to read the rules before posting. If you can't do that, not so sure adding more warning labels is going to accomplish much.

If you are looking for a used say, Parasound HCA 1200ii, and you google it, google very well might lead you DIRECTLY to the the listing. There are NO RULES that you would see unless you thought to yourself, "I wonder if there are any rules here?" As someone who ONLY frequents this forum (literally), prior to my membership here I had no idea there might be such rules. Its an internet forum for goodness sake, not an effing kindergarden class.

tonyb wrote: »

Rules scare people away ? Reminding folks of the rules scare people away ?

If they are unknown or unreasonable rules, then yes. If you do it rudely, then yes.

tonyb wrote: »

We view the forum differently then. The FM is a privilege for members in good standing, not an open Craigslist.

Yes, its privilege to SELL on the forum, and it can be a privilege to buy on the forum if the SELLER wants to offer a deal to members in good standing. Its not a privilege if there is no one to sell to. Period.

Well said! Bottom line - look at things from the perspective of a first encounter noob, and welcome/educate/encourage.

nguyendot

I wouldn't say 100 for buying or selling is extreme. We all know that on here you get a "Polkie price" which is extremely discounted from Craigslist or eBay. I personally think that you have to earn that privilege and not just waltz in off the street and be entitled to it.

Kurt300

I know I said I'd wait for feedback, but hey I need the post count...

Here is another analogy that might make sense to the longer-term members. I've been playing chess since I was six years old, and did pretty well in one World Open tournament a few decades ago. When a young family member wants to play, I welcome, encourage, and educate them, not blast them if they don't know some rules or strategy. Similarly, many of you have gained a lot of knowledge but lost empathy for those that start out on the same road you started down so many years ago. Let go of your superior attitude and help people up to where you are. You just might find a lot more friends and a revived Forum.