Erse Super Q How do I go from 17Mh to 16Mh without an LCR

RandyCroissant

I know many on here have experience with this and I am thinking there might be a set number of turns such as one post I read at 15 turns. Can a good DVM do the measurement or is an LCR needed? Thanks for any suggestions you can give me.

ZLTFUL

If you don't already have the Erse inductors, either order the Solen 16mh direct from Solen with the close DCR or make a special order for the Jantzen perfect lay through Parts Express.

westmassguy

Randy, if you don't get anywhere with Erse, Send them to me, and I'll unwind them to their proper value for you.

RandyCroissant

westmassguy wrote: »

Randy, if you don't get anywhere with Erse, Send them to me, and I'll unwind them to their proper value for you.

westmassguy, Those folks at ERSE don't like to respond to e-mail so far last two weeks I tried 3 times for info no go my problem with this is I don't have any real use for a LCR meter so I have the inductors and I can send them to you return postage paid of course. Just let me know were to send them to and how much, I want to get it right and Thank You

F1nut

Why didn't you buy the Jantzen 16 mH, part #0873 from the start? At 2.66 ohms it's just slightly less than stock.

westmassguy

F1nut wrote: »

Why didn't you buy the Jantzen 16 mH, part #0873 from the start? At 2.66 ohms it's just slightly less than stock.

Jesse, the original Inductors are 2.5-2.7 ohms. Their measured Inductance and Resistance varies widely. They were not exactly precision wound. The Erse SuperQs are .5 ohms when unwound to 16mH.

ZLTFUL

But doesn't that drop the overall impedance rating of the speaker which is already capable of seriously low impedance dips?

westmassguy

ZLTFUL wrote: »

But doesn't that drop the overall impedance rating of the speaker which is already capable of seriously low impedance dips?

Yes it does. It's the Sub Bass Drive Inductor. It's one of the upgrades recommended by MP himself. It increases the low bass output of the Dimensional Woofers.
From the mouth of MP:

"we added an inductor in each speaker between the SDA driver negative terminal and the amp negative terminal on that side. At low frequencies that diverts the signal back to ground instead of through the interconnect to the SDA drivers in the other
speaker. As a result, at very low frequencies the Right SDA drivers produce
only right channel bass and vice versa, while still producing the R-L and L-R
signals at higher frequencies. The transition occurs between about 50Hz and
150Hz.
However, because of the DC resistance of the inductor, the system
isn't perfect. I don't recall the DC resistance of these coils but it was
high, at least several ohms depending on the model. This means that
the SDA drivers will continue to produce some SDA signal even at
very low frequencies. Decreasing the DC resistance will definitely
improve the bass response of the system both qualitatively and
quantitatively. However, before you rush out to buy those Hi-Q
replacement inductors be aware of some concerns.
We chose the higher DC air core coils for a couple of good reasons. First, we
were always on the edge of acceptability with the impedance of the SDA's.
The DCR of these coils kept the minimum impedance high enough for the
amps available in those days. Depending on the model, reducing the DC
resistance of these coils may take the minimum impedance down to around 2
ohms. If your amp doesn't mind, you shouldn't either. The other concern is
saturation of the inductor core. Air core inductors don't saturate. Given the
cost of adequate ferrite or laminated core inductors at the time, plus the
need for a higher DCR, the air core choice was obvious. So, when switching
to a ferrite or laminated core inductor make sure it will handle at least 5
amps without saturation. That's equivalent to 100 watts of low frequency
power through the SDA driver."

F1nut

Depending on the model, reducing the DC resistance of these coils may take the minimum impedance down to around 2 ohms. If your amp doesn't mind, you shouldn't either.

That still could be a problem today given what a lot of the guys are using for power.

I also have to wonder about this throwing the balance of the speaker off. For example, if my 2.3TL's had any more bass it would be too much.

westmassguy

Jesse, we're talking deep bass. The Inductor is essentially a 1st order filter. It's effects are most notable below 50 Hz

F1nut

Right, the bass that one feels and that will suck an amp dry.

westmassguy

F1nut wrote: »

Right, the bass that one feels and that will suck an amp dry.

Absolutely. That's why MP gave the warning, and I do as well when I recommend it.

westmassguy

I would add, the 4th and 5th generation SDAs are less likely to hit 2 ohms than the 3rd generation, in my opinion. I would imagine the original SRS will dip quite low compared to the 1.2. My 2As were 4 ohm to begin with. I know they drop quite a bit below that. Luckily my Carver is stable down to 2ohms.

ZLTFUL

Thanks for that. I had read it before. But I figured that was why the Solen and Jantzen inductors were being recommended because they didn't "risk" the kinds of drops that the Erse did.

Not advocating one way or the other...just making sure all of the info is "out there".

westmassguy

Everything is relative. If your amp can safely handle 2 ohm loads, AND can supply enough current to drive whatever model SDA you have, there's no problem. Everyone I've done it for is very happy with the results. If you think the Erse has a low DCR, the Jantzen C-Coil Toroid has an even lower DCR of 0.16 ohms.

ZLTFUL

But I would make the same argument there too. As you said though, it is all relative.
The amp is the only thing that will have a problem and even then only rarely.
The Solen I went with for the 2.3s made a significant improvement in the lower registers. I still grin from ear to ear when I think of the look on @gudnoyez face when he first got to hear them.

F1nut

What's the DCR of the Solen?

gimpod

F1nut wrote: »

What's the DCR of the Solen?

Here you go Jesse, From Solens web site.

Solen 16.0 mH Stanard Inductor DCR, Gauge/Ohms

10 Ga, 0.56 Ohms
12 GA, 0.83 Ohms
14 Ga, 1.24 Ohms
16 Ga, 1.79 Ohms

Solen 16.0 mH Hyper-Litz Inductor DCR, Gauge/Ohms

10 Ga, 0.83 Ohms
12 GA, 1.24 Ohms
14 Ga, 1.79 Ohms

ZLTFUL

Yup. Thanks @gimpod I used the 16ga standard...

TennMan

David recommended the Erse Super Qs to me. It really improved the low bass on my 2BTLs. If you try them you won't go back to the stock inductors.

I have an Adcom 555 but right now I'm running a Yamaha entry level AVR and it handles the load just fine. It has an 8 ohm and a 4 ohm setting for the main speakers.

RandyCroissant

Thanks TennMan, I read quite a few posts and many here like the Super Qs David suggests. My Polks are the 2BTL like yours and my AVR is also a Yamaha it is the Aventage RX-A1030 series. and in pure direct the low bass is a little shy. that's one of the reasons I would like to try out the Qs I am not yet ready to do the amp upgrade but at some point my eventual thoughts are a Parasound to do the heavy lifting.

westmassguy

RandyCroissant wrote: »

Thanks TennMan, I read quite a few posts and many here like the Super Qs David suggests. My Polks are the 2BTL like yours and my AVR is also a Yamaha it is the Aventage RX-A1030 series. and in pure direct the low bass is a little shy. that's one of the reasons I would like to try out the Qs I am not yet ready to do the amp upgrade but at some point my eventual thoughts are a Parasound to do the heavy lifting.

Randy, your AVR may have problems once the SuperQs are installed. The AVR does have Dynamic Ratings for 6, 4, and 2 ohms. I'd go easy with the volume knob.

TennMan

westmassguy wrote: »

Randy, your AVR may have problems once the SuperQs are installed. The AVR does have Dynamic Ratings for 6, 4, and 2 ohms. I'd go easy with the volume knob.

I agree. The good thing is, once the Super Qs are installed you may not feel a need to crank it up to get the bass you are looking for.

RandyCroissant

westmassguy wrote: »

RandyCroissant wrote: »

Randy, your AVR may have problems once the SuperQs are installed. The AVR does have Dynamic Ratings for 6, 4, and 2 ohms. I'd go easy with the volume knob.

My AVR can be volume limited it is a simple setting, we don't crank it these days but I do have a son and daughter that might be tempted. So my plan is to put a cap on the fun control. This upgrade is the second step in a two step process the first was caps, resistors, and the TL mod. Those alone made a world of difference thanks to folks like you for all your advice. This second round will be the full set of mods including new boards, inductors, etc..etc..

Schurkey

I got my **** kicked on another forum for suggesting that Yamaha's scheme for protecting the amplifier--which involves reducing the power supply voltage by flipping a "4-ohm" switch on the back of the unit, and therefore killing output power--was less-than-optimum and nearly deceptive. This particular amp was not FTC-rated for 4-ohm use even though there's a 4-ohm switch on it! It also had a "dynamic" (i.e., crap) rating for 2-ohm use, but what good is that when they won't provide a proper 4-ohm rating?

Not enough heat sink, not enough power transistors, not enough power supply, WAY TOO MUCH "CYA".

RandyCroissant

Schurkey wrote: »

I got my **** kicked on another forum for suggesting that Yamaha's scheme for protecting the amplifier--which involves reducing the power supply voltage by flipping a "4-ohm" switch on the back of the unit, and therefore killing output power--was less-than-optimum and nearly deceptive. This particular amp was not FTC-rated for 4-ohm use even though there's a 4-ohm switch on it!

Not enough heat sink, not enough power transistors, not enough power supply, WAY TOO MUCH "CYA".

Shurkey I will double check but It's not the flip of a switch what I am talking about it is limiting the volume control i.e. a throttle stop if you will. As far as heat sinks and transistors. I don't know!! It sounds good to me.

DANW57

I have a pair of 1C's I'm working on upgrading. This may be a dumb question but will using a 15 or 17 mh coil in place of the 16mh really make that much difference.
Or is making it 16mh a purist thing? Sticking to the original design?

westmassguy

16 mH was chosen for a reason. You can put whatever you want in there, but it will not perform as per the original design.

TennMan

DANW57 wrote: »

I have a pair of 1C's I'm working on upgrading. This may be a dumb question but will using a 15 or 17 mh coil in place of the 16mh really make that much difference.
Or is making it 16mh a purist thing? Sticking to the original design?

I did some experimenting when I unwound the 17mh Erse inductors for my 2BTLs. I think I settled on 15.5mh as sounding the best to me. I don't remember why now. There is a thread I made about it here on the forum somewhere but I couldn't find it. Easiest thing to do is unwind to 16mh and be done with it. I tried unwinding without an LCR meter but that didn't work to well. You definitely need a meter.

gudnoyez

ZLTFUL wrote: »

But I would make the same argument there too. As you said though, it is all relative.
The amp is the only thing that will have a problem and even then only rarely.
The Solen I went with for the 2.3s made a significant improvement in the lower registers. I still grin from ear to ear when I think of the look on @gudnoyez face when he first got to hear them.

Still got that look on my face I think it's permanent kinda looks like this