When bad design/support spoil a great product

AsSiMiLaTeD

I seem to be running into this more and more these days, the scenario where you've got what should be a great product but it's either got a couple serious flaws or really abysmal support.

I'm dealing with this right now on the testing I'm doing with a few phones and watches that I've posted about here on the forum, but I'm still in the throws of all that testing so I'm gonna use an example with another product that I've had much more experience with at this point - the Pono Player.

I've created a thread here on it already and absolutely LOVE the sound of this player, it's the best portable player I've listened to, and I've almost heard them all at this point. HOWEVER, it has lots of issues, I've already listed those in the Pono thread so won't go thru them all again here.

The Pono has a couple serious flaws though and has actually developed a couple problems over the last couple weeks that have me reaching out to them for support. I've contacted them on a couple issues and let's just say the 'support' I've received on three occasions now has been consistently anything but...support. I'm not going to get into those further as that's not the point here.

It's stupid though when you have a product that has so much promise and potential and yet has serious flaws the really detract from usage, and then an abysmal support system to go along with that. It's getting to the point where I'm now exploring other options...again. They got the hard part right in the sound quality, all this other stuff is a collection of things that other companies get right all the time, frustrating.

Anyone have a similar experience to share?

msg

I've had plenty of experiences like this, and it's maddening. You'd think that product quality would be nearing perfection in this day, but it still always surprises me to come across poor designs or flat out lemons. The thing that really bothers me is that, yes, that it could be amazing otherwise, if not for a company blatantly ignoring the problem, and not owning it to make things right. Proactive notification of these things would be top notch and probably seal my loyalty, but it seems that there are few companies that do things like that anymore. Especially maddening is when earlier products seemed to have those same faults nailed, but a new iteration - in order to improve something perceived as lacking, often with great success, as you've noted - introduces elementary design or use problem of the more practical sort, essentially ruining the use experience. Usually leaves me frustrated and fantasizing about being able to somehow come up with own version.

I've come across this in several areas - smartphones, vehicles, even clothing. Seems like it's everywhere. The one I hate most is when it's obvious that a faulty design was issued in order to squeeze more savings to the manufacturer at the cost of tarnishing the reputation of the product. In audio, I'd relate this to something like short warranties and say, faults like heat damaged HDMI boards or something like that. My first receiver did that, and then you're pretty much just stuck.

tonyb

Can't say I do, recently anyway. You can however say the same for lots of products though even outside of audio.

Shame with the Pono, for a product looking to take over the portable market it isn't looking too promising. I do live by a few simple rules though in these matters.

Never buy a product the first year it comes out.
Let others get caught with the bugs and give the company a chance to work them out. Same rule applies for car buying.

Be aware of the warranty and return said product the minute it starts showing problems. If problems show up while it's new, it won't get any better as it ages.

Wait for some actual user reviews instead of the magazine fluff reviews. I used to subscribe to all the audio magazines, never do they say this or that product stinks. They always focus on the positives and hardly the negatives. Same goes for TV's, Auto's, appliances.

I always try and buy quality over bells and whistles. That extends to just about any consumer product.

Customer service can make or break a product/brand. Even some well know highly regarded audio brands have the worst customer service....but make a good quality product. Maybe that's why too, they figure if you build it right, they will come, and customer service is an after thought.

Depends on a companies priorities I guess. Maybe Pono figures their superior sound will keep customers, in spite of the bugs. Maybe they just need time to sort out the design and where they source their parts from. Who knows.....but always refer to the first rule.

AsSiMiLaTeD

You bring up a very good and fair point Tony. I'll start by saying that I DON'T share your viewpoint on buying in to the first generation of a product, but you raise a good point about being an early adopter.

I'm very much a first generation product guy, especially in the last four years or so. Technology needs people like me, the theory of Diffusion of Innovations has been trying to explain this for over 50 years now. I'm definitely an early adopter, and probably will be as long as I have sufficient income to do so. That varies a little depending on the type of product, but generally anything I'm interested in I'm in the first wave of buyers.

People love to make fun of the early adopters, think of the endless jokes made at the expense of the people who stood in line to shell out $700 for the first generation iPhone. I wasn't in on the early iPhone because I didn't have that kind of money in 2007 plus I hated the company who was launching it, but if that were today I'd be there in line with the rest of them. The general sentiment among a lot of reviewers when these smartwatches that are on the market today launched recently was "wait until the next generations to let them get the kinks worked out", but the problem with that logic is that if nobody buys the first generation and holds out for a better second version...there may not be a second version.

Technology NEEDS people like me who are willing to spend $550 on a watch that will very likely get updated with a vastly superior model in a year or two from now. People that stood in line for hours to buy a phone a few years ago are the reason that we can all walk in to most stores today and get a very good smartphone for $99.

However, with all that said, along with being an early adopter does come a certain level of frustration tied to using a product that has not been volume tested. I've heard the argument that you can't be an early adopter and then complain about problematic products. I'll agree to the point that I shouldn't constantly whine or gripe about issues, but companies like Pono and Apple need us to be vocal about issues with their products if they're going to get those fixed.

Knowing how first generation products go though, I very rarely give up on a product early on and typically stick it out as things get improved. When I first posted on the Pono player here I laid out every single issue I had with the player, and then STILL said it's the best sounding player out there and have used it continuously over the last few months. So, although I'm complaining here, I've got a fairly high tolerance for early generation products with issues as long as they're at least usable.

HOWEVER...

What I don't have a tolerance for is bad customer service. Sure, I'll take a bad experience here and there and just live with it because you could be dealing with a service rep who just got chewed out by his supervisor or just had a horrid experience with an unreasonably irate customer. But when I consistently have bad customer service from a company that's more of a culture issue and tells me they don't actually give a **** about their customers, well then I'm done. It's the reason I don't buy Samsung these days, I've had (literally) nothing but bad customer service from them.

Unfortunately that's the issue I'm having with Pono at the moment. I've reached out to them three times on separate issues, and all of those encounters have resulted in frustration. I'm getting very slow response times from them (days between replies) and the replies I'm getting are basically worthless form-letter type responses typed up be people who clearly have no desire to help me.

I'm bummed about the overall experience with Pono so far, I was hoping for better service from a company so seemingly focussed on 'people'.

gimpod

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Technology NEEDS people like me who are willing to spend $550 on a watch that will very likely get updated with a vastly superior model in a year or two from now. People that stood in line for hours to buy a phone a few years ago are the reason that we can all walk in to most stores today and get a very good smartphone for $99.

They get the full price for that so called $99 smartphone, Why do you think your cell phone bill is so high ?

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

However, with all that said, along with being an early adopter does come a certain level of frustration tied to using a product that has not been volume tested. I've heard the argument that you can't be an early adopter and then complain about problematic products. I'll agree to the point that I shouldn't constantly whine or gripe about issues, but companies like Pono and Apple need us to be vocal about issues with their products if they're going to get those fixed.

I have to disagree with this statement in principle as being an early adopter you paid good money and top dollar you have more of a right to point out flaws in a product than anyone and the company should listen closely to what you say so they can make there product better. And if they don't listen you should be letting everyone know.

I also agree with your lack of tolerance for bad customer service. There is just no excuse and is the one thing that will drive me away along with how they conduct business!.

Unfortunately these days it seems the end user is nothing more than an unlistened to and unpaid alpha or at best a beta tester, this is why I always buy 2nd or even 3rd generation "junk" 'cause I can't afford to be an alpha or beta tester.

tonyb

As long as your willing to take those risks as an early adopter, more power to ya. Many can not though.

The customer service thing, yeah agree there. Which is why they may not be around long, unless someone buys them. Look at Sony, Samsung....horrible customer service and people are spending thousands on their products. Cable companies....not exactly known for stellar CS either. Yet they are all still here because either they are too big or have a monopoly in their industry. Pono has neither, maybe Jay z will buy them too.

steveinaz

Witness: Satellite Radio. Excellent potential, Huge audience, TERRIBLE execution.

AsSiMiLaTeD

That's a great example Steve, satellite radio has been another of my big disappointments given how cool it should be. When Howard Stern leaves they're either going to have to really change or they're going to lose a ton of their customers.

steveinaz

I was pretty excited with satellite radios launch, being in a small town with 1 radio station. Then I heard it. What a disappointment with the ultra-low bit rates, and "Sirius-XM" is even worse. If it wasn't for the fact that I do alot of long distance driving, I'd shut down my (3 receiver) account completely.

Sirius, you suck.

tonyb

Never had a chance to listen to it, guess I wasn't missing anything.

cfrizz

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

gimpod

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

No thanks, XP, Vista 64 and Win 7 64 fills my needs. Won't upgrade till I'm forced to.

One question, What happened to Windows 9 and are they "Microlimp" going to skip Windows 13?

@AsSiMiLaTeD probably won't see this 'cause I think he may have put me on his ignore list because of my so call Apple bashing thread (That I had closed), but fear not I dislike "Microlimp" just as much and for the same reasons.:)

westmassguy

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

I have on three machines. I'll do my regular Acronis full backup before installing Windows 10. I'll decide if I like it or not.

westmassguy

gimpod wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

No thanks, XP, Vista 64 and Win 7 64 fills my needs. Won't upgrade till I'm forced to.

One question, What happened to Windows 9 and are they "Microlimp" going to skip Windows 13?

quote]

gimpod wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

No thanks, XP, Vista 64 and Win 7 64 fills my needs. Won't upgrade till I'm forced to.

One question, What happened to Windows 9 and are they "Microlimp" going to skip Windows 13?

According to what I've read, some software would flag it as Windows 95/98, and not install. To avoid that, Microshaft went directly to Windows 10.

AsSiMiLaTeD

gimpod wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

So how many of you have signed up to be guinea pigs for Windows 10?

No thanks, XP, Vista 64 and Win 7 64 fills my needs. Won't upgrade till I'm forced to.

One question, What happened to Windows 9 and are they "Microlimp" going to skip Windows 13?

@AsSiMiLaTeD probably won't see this 'cause I think he may have put me on his ignore list because of my so call Apple bashing thread (That I had closed), but fear not I dislike "Microlimp" just as much and for the same reasons.:)

I don't do "ignore lists", everyone's got the right to their own opinion. I wasn't offended by that thread, just found it funny is all. I've got no issues with Microsoft or Apple, without those guys there's no 'computer age' and there's no online forums for you to talk about how much you hate Apple and Microsoft so keep that in mind.

AsSiMiLaTeD

westmassguy wrote: »

According to what I've read, some software would flag it as Windows 95/98, and not install. To avoid that, Microshaft went directly to Windows 10.

Stuff like this is why Microsoft gets a pass in my book. Although I don't enjoy the experience of using Windows as much for my primary computer (my gaming rig is obviously Windows), I fully acknowledge what a technological feat Windows is. Because of their open standards and letting everyone under the sun make software and hardware for Windows, Microsoft has to deal with a metric **** ton of issues ranging from full compatibility across the board to stuff like you posted above. They don't get it right every single time and we all love to **** about Windows, but it seems to work the vast majority of the time.

westmassguy

I've been using Windows since 95'. I'm not bashing it at all. They have had some missteps, Window ME, Vista, Windows 8. Most of the time they get it right though. They've had WHQL testing for some time now, so there's really no excuse for hardware and software not to work with Windows. Some vendors choose not to use it however.

EndersShadow

@gimpod

I went ahead and signed up for Win 10, but dont plan on installing it right away... I'm gonna wait till the end of my time limit (a year from live date) to see how things go.

That said, in the scheme of things, I'm sure they've learned their lessons from Windows 8 and 8.1, just like they learned from Vista and when Win 7 came out it was much improved......

And honestly most of the driver issues where not MS's problems, the device manufactures just didn't make drivers fast enough which isn't Microsofts problem so much, but they of course took the brunt of the hate...

Now Windows 8....well thats a different story..

So much so that most of us are still running Windows 7...

So I'm hopeful they've solved the problems from 8, and look forward to playing with 10.

steveinaz

cfrizz wrote: »

I've never been willing to be some companies guinea pig! More power and frustration to those of you who are!

Cathy, they were sneaky about it. When I first had XM, the sound quality was good, and I'm sure XM was using much higher bit rates, but when Sirius bought out XM, the sound quality was really degraded. Some professionals say the rate is somewhere like 64kb now, and rarely hits 128. That's pityful.

gimpod

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I don't do "ignore lists", everyone's got the right to their own opinion. I wasn't offended by that thread, just found it funny is all. I've got no issues with Microsoft or Apple, without those guys there's no 'computer age' and there's no online forums for you to talk about how much you hate Apple and Microsoft so keep that in mind.

I'm glad I didn't offend you as it was not my intention. But as far as your comment about the "computer age" it would have happened without ether company if only the head honchos at Digital Research and Xerox had not been so near sighted and had there heads so far up there back sides. Especially if Xerox had listened to and believed in what there researchers at there Palo Alto Research Center (often referred to and called Xerox PARC) were saying.

"Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry ... could have been IBM, could have been Microsoft" the lose quote is from a Steve Jobs interview from the documentary called "Triumph Of The Nerds Part 3 by Robert Cringley" about 14:40 in.

You'd be surprised at how much actual backstabbing, lying, manipulation, bulling, destruction of competition and outright theft of technology that went into making the Mac and Windows happen. (This is why I don't care for ether company.)

BTW: IMO The only guy out of both these company's that deserves respect is Steve Wozniak.

The following documentary pretty much covers things up to Window 95, I would like to see it brought up to date.

Triumph Of The Nerds Part 1
Triumph Of The Nerds Part 2
Triumph Of The Nerds Part 3