SDA Owners - How Active Are Your Drivers?

msg

Hey guys,
I'm working with a pair of 2.3TL's
Something seems off. I'm not getting much bass or much in the way of body or presence in the lower mids to bottom end. I notice that the drivers don't seem very active, at least not as active as with Monitor 10's or 703's on the same equipment. In fact, those speakers are more active even on lesser equipment.

Is this normal?
I would imagine the smaller speakers may be more active, but not sure.

I'm using a Parasound HCA-3500 with a P5 preamp, and have some good cables. As noted, this system works well with other speakers, but the 2.3TL's just sound empty.

They've been like this since I acquired them last summer, and were the same with the previous amp I was using as well, so this is not new behavior. I just never really noticed it before, until more profound experiences with the other speakers. I've been using a sub with the 2.3's in the main space. From what I gather from other owners, these things should make great bass and massive sound stage. I'm hearing neither.

I've done the push test on the passive rad. On both speakers, the drivers come out and then slowly settle back in. Is this normal, or should they hold as long as I've got the passive depressed?

My test tracks all sound empty and underwhelming.

Am I missing something simple, or does this sound indicative of tired crossovers or something like that?
Both speakers seem to exhibit the same laziness.

F1nut

^This^

msg

Okay, push test good.

They're about 4" off the wall. As close as I can get without mashing the cables. My understanding is that they should sit closer than with ported speakers. I can switch to spades if they should be closer, but probably not with these binding posts; just the OE ones right now, with the plastic nuts, so I think the spades would come loose.

The R one is 5ft off the wall, with the L about 14ft. Approx 5ft between them from opposing sides. I wanted more than this, but I'm cable limited right now, and plan to move them out a little further later. I am experiencing reasonably decent stereo separation - better than with the previous positioning.

Thanks for the other recommendations. I'll check the polarity next. It's probably time to take a look inside anyway.

But they should make significant bass, right?

westmassguy

Significant Bass? Absolutely. The four Stereo Drivers are wired in a Series /Parallel configuration. The two Dimensional drivers are in Parallel. Download the main Schematic, and the Left and Right Channel Wiring Schematics. Those should help you figure out if they're wired correctly.

drumminman

Has anyone done any mods to these? Rebuilt crossovers? Replaced the wiring harness? Replaced any MW's or tweeters? If a previous owner has, and didn't really know what he was doing he could have buggered up things.

As stated above I would check the wiring harness and make sure the speakers are connected according to the wiring diagram. Then I would check polarity. With that big Parasound driving them they should sound big and full.

Are you using the SDA interconnect cable?

vmaxer

A simple test I've used was to connect a battery to the inputs and see that all drivers moved in the same direction.

msg

westmassguy wrote: »

Significant Bass? Absolutely. The four Stereo Drivers are wired in a Series /Parallel configuration. The two Dimensional drivers are in Parallel. Download the main Schematic, and the Left and Right Channel Wiring Schematics. Those should help you figure out if they're wired correctly.

okay, thank you.
yeah, something must be off. clarity and stereo performance aside, I'm getting a fuller sound from a pair of LSi7's with sub running off a slightly lesser 5ch amp with poor cables.

I just pulled all the drivers earlier and checked the polarity; they all look right as far as +/-; black/blue - pos, white/green - neg

here's a crummy sketch with what I found for each.


the drivers shown with two sets denote drivers with two wires on each terminal
ex.
B/W
B/W
means two black wires on positive terminal, two white wires on negative terminal


B/W
W/W
means one black wire and one white wire on positive terminal, and two white wires on negative terminal




tweeters are all wired up with white on negative terminal
on positive, it's R, BL, Y, top to bottom, both sides

the only other thing I noticed is that the gasket material for all the mids is really thin, and was cut out around the screw holes. the tweeter gaskets are thicker.

Right speaker crossover. it's a little skewed in its position, but other than that, nothing jumps out at me.

drumminman wrote: »

Has anyone done any mods to these? Rebuilt crossovers? Replaced the wiring harness? Replaced any MW's or tweeters? If a previous owner has, and didn't really know what he was doing he could have buggered up things.

As stated above I would check the wiring harness and make sure the speakers are connected according to the wiring diagram. Then I would check polarity. With that big Parasound driving them they should sound big and full.

Are you using the SDA interconnect cable?

great questions.

No real mods yet that I know of. As far as I know the only thing the previous owner did was upgrade the tweeters to the 198's. Can't speak for anything that may have happened prior to his ownership, but they do not appear to be molested as far as I can tell. Everything appears to be OE.

I agree. the fact that lesser speakers are outperforming them seems very wrong with everything I've heard about what they should be able to do. They don't go very deep at all. not to mention the LSi7's and sub actually seems cleaner.

yes, I have the original Polk SDA interconnect cable, and it is connected. it does not appear to be damaged.

vmaxer wrote: »

A simple test I've used was to connect a battery to the inputs and see that all drivers moved in the same direction.

is this for checking polarity? functionality too, I imagine? it has just occurred to me that even though all the drivers are moving slightly, I still can't be sure they're all actually functioning.

I can do this with the drivers installed, correct?
what size battery?

so, do you guys see significant movement of the drivers when listening at moderate levels? I really have to crank the volume knob to around 10 o'clock to get them going. I don't listen at those levels. as noted, the M10's and 703's put out much fuller sound, and 9 o'clock is plenty with them. To get any significant bass with the 2.3's, I have really crank the bass control knob.

msg

btw, I did check the P5 to make sure the crossovers weren't engaged. they were not, and I reset the controls just to be sure.

vmaxer

msg wrote: »

westmassguy wrote: »

Significant Bass? Absolutely. The four Stereo Drivers are wired in a Series /Parallel configuration. The two Dimensional drivers are in Parallel. Download the main Schematic, and the Left and Right Channel Wiring Schematics. Those should help you figure out if they're wired correctly.

okay, thank you.
yeah, something must be off. clarity and stereo performance aside, I'm getting a fuller sound from a pair of LSi7's with sub running off a slightly lesser 5ch amp with poor cables.

I just pulled all the drivers earlier and checked the polarity; they all look right as far as +/-; black/blue - pos, white/green - neg

here's a crummy sketch with what I found for each.


the drivers shown with two sets denote drivers with two wires on each terminal
ex.
B/W
B/W
means two black wires on positive terminal, two white wires on negative terminal


B/W
W/W
means one black wire and one white wire on positive terminal, and two white wires on negative terminal




tweeters are all wired up with white on negative terminal
on positive, it's R, BL, Y, top to bottom, both sides

the only other thing I noticed is that the gasket material for all the mids is really thin, and was cut out around the screw holes. the tweeter gaskets are thicker.

Right speaker crossover. it's a little skewed in its position, but other than that, nothing jumps out at me.

drumminman wrote: »

Has anyone done any mods to these? Rebuilt crossovers? Replaced the wiring harness? Replaced any MW's or tweeters? If a previous owner has, and didn't really know what he was doing he could have buggered up things.

As stated above I would check the wiring harness and make sure the speakers are connected according to the wiring diagram. Then I would check polarity. With that big Parasound driving them they should sound big and full.

Are you using the SDA interconnect cable?

great questions.

No real mods yet that I know of. As far as I know the only thing the previous owner did was upgrade the tweeters to the 198's. Can't speak for anything that may have happened prior too, but they do not appear to be molested as far as I can tell. Everything appears to be OE.

I agree. the fact that lesser speakers are outperforming them seems very wrong with everything I've heard about what they should be able to do. They don't go very deep at all. not to mention the LSi7's and sub actually seems cleaner.

yes, I have the original Polk SDA interconnect cable, and it is connected. it does not appear to be damaged.

vmaxer wrote: »

A simple test I've used was to connect a battery to the inputs and see that all drivers moved in the same direction.

is this for checking polarity? functionality too, I imagine? it has just occurred to me that even though all the drivers are moving slightly, I still can't be sure they're all actually functioning.

I can do this with the drivers installed, correct?
what size battery?

so, do you guys see significant movement of the drivers when listening at moderate levels? I really have to crank the volume knob to around 10 o'clock to get them going. I don't listen at those levels. as noted, the M10's and 703's put out much fuller sound, and 9 o'clock is plenty with them. To get any significant bass with the 2.3's, I have really crank the bass control knob.

I have used a D battery as I had a holder for it so it was easier. If some drivers go in and some go out you have an issue. I do it with the speakers intact, not sure if the 2.3 have 2 inputs, one for high and one for low?? When I was trouble shooing my 1.2 tl's I connected to the low side. Maybe someone can chime in and ensure the tweeters can handle this??

westmassguy

I would NOT use a battery to test tweeters. Check all the woofer's DCR, and make sure their all around 6.5-6.6 ohms

msg

okay, I'll hold off on the battery thing for now. maybe revisit
I'll check the woofers.

If all the woofers check good, what would this mean?
something in crossovers, or just unrealistic expectations?

to confirm, bass should be relatively easy to achieve with these, yes?
even if used it a big, open space?

msg

vmaxer wrote: »

I have used a D battery as I had a holder for it so it was easier. If some drivers go in and some go out you have an issue. I do it with the speakers intact, not sure if the 2.3 have 2 inputs, one for high and one for low?? When I was trouble shooing my 1.2 tl's I connected to the low side. Maybe someone can chime in and ensure the tweeters can handle this??

ah, I see. cool, thanks man. I was thinking if I were to try this I'd use a spare length of speaker wire or something.

the 2.3TL's do have upper and lower binding posts. mine are connected with crummy speaker wire jumpers.

I've never really understood how this is divided. is it truly tweeters on upper, mids on lower? I imagine it may vary by speaker model, generally speaking. my speaker cables are plugged into the lower, with the wire jumpers between the upper and lower posts.

hey - was it really necessary to quote the whole post pictures and all for that bit? haha [rib-rib]

nbrowser wrote: »

msg, yep, even my smaller SDA 2s emit quite a bit of bass for having only 3 MWs in each cabinet in a larger room. Then again I'm also shoving a lot of power into them as well.

alright, good, thanks. just wanted to make sure.

tell me about movement, please, when you're making big bass. what do you see?
really not trying to fixate on this, but no one's really answered this yet, and I'm trying to get some sense of what others' speakers are doing. I would think they'd be moving, but so far from what I gather from another trusted member in PM, they don't move that much.

motorstereo

Briefly touching the d battery to your speakers won't hurt a thing as the crossover capacitors will block that small amount dc from reaching your tweeters. I used a d cell to check my 1.2tl's and found 2 drivers in one speaker that were wired out of phase. What a hell of a a difference that made once I corrected that problem.

westmassguy

motorstereo wrote: »

Briefly touching the d battery to your speakers won't hurt a thing as the crossover capacitors will block that small amount dc from reaching your tweeters. I used a d cell to check my 1.2tl's and found 2 drivers in one speaker that were wired out of phase. What a hell of a a difference that made once I corrected that problem.

I beg to differ. I would never test my own or recommend anyone else check a tweeter with a battery, crossover or not. Check each tweeter's DCR with a meter, then test leads and a 4 or 5uf cap in series, connected to a music source. Way too easy for someone who's unsure to blow a tweeter.

gudnoyez

Hey after reading this I honestly have never noticed much movement on the mid drivers on the 2.3tls or the 2Bs. I went down to the cave put in some Primus let Les Claypool do his thing, removed the grills cranked them a bit, plenty of bass to shake things up a bit, but did not notice that much movement, but I can feel the floor and walls shake pretty darn good. I assume minimal movement is normal.

vmaxer

If you have 2 connections, try the battery on the lowers, remove the jumper. I also found out of phase on mine this way...

I'm not sure about the tweeters, why risk it if you don't have to??

F1nut

Did you check that the red binding posts nuts are on the left when looking at the back?

The mid-driver gaskets are supposed to be thin.

Four inches from the back wall is too close. Move them out an inch or two.

msg

gudnoyez wrote: »

Hey after reading this I honestly have never noticed much movement on the mid drivers on the 2.3tls or the 2Bs. I went down to the cave put in some Primus let Les Claypool do his thing, removed the grills cranked them a bit, plenty of bass to shake things up a bit, but did not notice that much movement, but I can feel the floor and walls shake pretty darn good. I assume minimal movement is normal.

great, thanks for Sailing the Seas of Cheese, man. this is inline with what I've been told, and contrary to what I'd expect, so I'll call that part good.

vmaxer wrote: »

If you have 2 connections, try the battery on the lowers, remove the jumper. I also found out of phase on mine this way...

okay, curiosity was getting to me, and no more time today to pull the MW's out again, so I decided to try this just to rule out a phase error. lower jumper only, upper disconnected. I used a generic speaker wire with banana plugs and a C battery intermittently connected; all MW's responsive and move in the same direction; obviously the passive goes the opposite way.

I put everything back together and verified operation. no obvious signs of trashing anything. whew.

David - side note, something I noticed before in these speakers when I first got them and was testing them out - is it my imagination, or does the upper tweeter do more than the lower two? seemed to get subsequently quieter going down the line.



Let me ask this - can the 2.3TL's make bass rivaling a sub, or is that unreasonable?
I'm finding that the bass response depends on the media. rock sounds pretty empty and generally awful. electronic and downtempo, not too bad, but still not the same presence as with a sub. in my other (smaller) space, the M10's and 703's don't need a sub. they absolutely kill it in that space.

I don't know. I'm thinking maybe it's just the room, and that I'll need the sub. the other spaces are smaller and have carpeting and bedding.

msg

F1nut wrote: »

Did you check that the red binding posts nuts are on the left when looking at the back?

The mid-driver gaskets are supposed to be thin.

Four inches from the back wall is too close. Move them out an inch or two.

yes sir, red nuts are on the left.

I'll try moving them out.

F1nut

Let me ask this - can the 2.3TL's make bass rivaling a sub

Yes, mine do.

F1nut

is it my imagination, or does the upper tweeter do more than the lower two? seemed to get subsequently quieter going down the line.

That is correct, it's called a progressive point source.

motorstereo

westmassguy wrote: »

motorstereo wrote: »

Briefly touching the d battery to your speakers won't hurt a thing as the crossover capacitors will block that small amount dc from reaching your tweeters. I used a d cell to check my 1.2tl's and found 2 drivers in one speaker that were wired out of phase. What a hell of a a difference that made once I corrected that problem.

I beg to differ. I would never test my own or recommend anyone else check a tweeter with a battery, crossover or not. Check each tweeter's DCR with a meter, then test leads and a 4 or 5uf cap in series, connected to a music source. Way too easy for someone who's unsure to blow a tweeter.

I was led to believe in a basic electronics course many moons ago that dc current will not pass through a capacitor so the tweeters would be safe. Of course one could also really play it safe and remove the jumpers for the testing. I do agree though that removing a tweeter from the crossover circuit and checking it with any battery is not a good idea.

westmassguy

motorstereo wrote: »

westmassguy wrote: »

motorstereo wrote: »

Briefly touching the d battery to your speakers won't hurt a thing as the crossover capacitors will block that small amount dc from reaching your tweeters. I used a d cell to check my 1.2tl's and found 2 drivers in one speaker that were wired out of phase. What a hell of a a difference that made once I corrected that problem.

I beg to differ. I would never test my own or recommend anyone else check a tweeter with a battery, crossover or not. Check each tweeter's DCR with a meter, then test leads and a 4 or 5uf cap in series, connected to a music source. Way too easy for someone who's unsure to blow a tweeter.

I was led to believe in a basic electronics course many moons ago that dc current will not pass through a capacitor so the tweeters would be safe. Of course one could also really play it safe and remove the jumpers for the testing. I do agree though that removing a tweeter from the crossover circuit and checking it with any battery is not a good idea.

You're correct, but, when you have an unknown, it's better to err on the side of caution. I get speakers in all the time for troubleshooting. Some are 40+ years old. Who knows who's been mucking around inside over the years. I've found jumpers shunting caps, bare wires etc.. You never know till you open her up, and start testing.
Woofers, I generally don't have a problem phase checking with a battery. Heck I use a 9 volt to do a final phase check on 901s after a re-edge.

msg

F1nut wrote: »

Let me ask this - can the 2.3TL's make bass rivaling a sub

Yes, mine do.

okay, thanks. just trying to gauge my expectations.
time for crossover work?

F1nut wrote: »

is it my imagination, or does the upper tweeter do more than the lower two? seemed to get subsequently quieter going down the line.

That is correct, it's called a progressive point source.

Interesting.

I moved them out to 6". this seems to have helped a bit. still not the same as with the sub engaged.

If anyone is interested, one of the test tracks I'm using is by a band called Spiritualized, and the track is Sway. You should be able to check it out with a tablet or smartphone by Bluetooth or aux cable if you're set up for this. You don't have to listen to the whole thing - there's a lower frequency bass passage that comes at 3:04. it is low, and sustained. (best if you start with the lead-in around 2:30 or so, just for context) If your system can play it, you'll see what I mean. in systems with a sub, and in my secondary space with M10's or 703's, this section hits pretty hard, carries and sustains. it's quite pleasing. If you can't hear it or if it sounds weak or lacks presence, your system may need some attention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2XixWqhF5s

gimpod

It really sounds like an out of phase and/or a leaky cabinet problem to me. Those 2.3TL's should put out lots of bottom end. Hell I have a pair of SDA 1C's that when cranked will almost rattle things off the walls or get the cops called on me.

I would check the wiring coming from the LF binding post to the crossover connector P1 (pins 2 & 3) if I'm not mistaken they are reversed ( + Red post going to pin 2 & - Black post going to pin 3) check the notes on the schematics for the 2.3TL.

I don't own, have a use for or need for a dedicated sub. I feel they provide an over emphasized unrealistic bass that's not really needed in music, Its only real use seems to be in adding (again IMO) an over emphasized unrealistic bass in the sfx sound track of movies that's not really needed. So no I don't think SDA's will produce the same level of bass as a dedicated sub, they can and will dig deep but just not that deep, after all there meant to be STEREO SPEAKERS not part of a home theater setup.

I could be wrong but it's just my opinion.

dpowell

Just to throw out something different. What preamp are you using? My eyes have been opened recently by hearing my 2.3s come alive when using a 2 channel pre amp vs the Pioneer elite as the pre. The room correction features on the pioneer are great for home theater but suck the life out of the speakers for music. The pre amp I heard them with was Nooshinjohns pass labs x1. Simply astounding. No sub required with that combo.

msg

hey man, yeah, inclined to agree with you there. I've had pretty good experiences using some nice older AVR's for 2ch duty, but have found that I do prefer a dedicated 2ch preamp now where possible where music is the primary. I'm now trying a Parasound P5 - a modest piece compared to the Pass Labs piece you mentioned

msg

where were they before? yeah man, my understanding is that they can/should be closer to wall than a ported speaker?

curious, how far apart are yours from their facing sides?
room size?

I gotta have leaky cabs or lazy x-overs, or even something simpler
or it's just my room.
or I'm just too used to a sub.

I might lug them into the small room to see how they compare to the M10's. if they don't perform in there, then I'll know there's something bigger going on.

msg

no, probably the opposite of that - got the metal feet on them, but I felted them for now for easy positioning adjustments. essentially put bunny slippers on them?

boston1450

DSkip wrote: »

Are they spiked?

very first thing i noticed-even at low volumes-when i spiked mine is how much better they sounded on the 1c's. I used a sub on them when i had it hooked up 5/1 & didnt need it. The sub was the first thing to go bye bye. Then it went back to 2 channel separates

F1nut

msg wrote: »

no, probably the opposite of that - got the metal feet on them, but I felted them for now for easy positioning adjustments. essentially put bunny slippers on them?

That is part of the issue right there.