Polk Bass Performance...

Chops

As some may know, I'm running a pair of RTi12's which really do extremely well in the bass department. They dig deep, give the system a really good, strong foundation, are very articulate, dynamic and detailed, and by no means needs the help of a subwoofer. They also provide open natural midrange and airy highs with good imaging and sound staging.

My main focus has always been 2-ch music and always will be. I would say 85% music, 15% movies. So yes, they have to be dual purpose, but most importantly they have to be really good with music.

Since these are my brother's speakers, he will eventually want them back and I also like to mod/upgrade things, and obviously can't do that to these, so...


I've been eyeballing the older LSi series (15/25) as well as the RT3000. Also the RTA and obviously the SDA series. I'm sure as far as the LSi series is concerned, the LSi25 would be the closest match as would the RT3000, but the real question is...

How far up the "food chain" so to speak would I have to go in the RTA or SDA line to get the same kind of bass response, midrange naturalness and open top end as the RTi12's?

Being that we live in an apartment, one the 3rd floor no less, I don't exactly get to blast my system. With music, I doubt the amp is putting out anymore than about 5 watts max (good for about 25 watts in Class A). With movies, I'll turn up the wick a little if it's not too late, but even then I'm sure I'm not exceeding anything past 20 watts peak. So power handling and woofer excursion shouldn't be an issue. Plus, even when we do move into a house, I highly doubt I'll be blasting the system the way I used to. I just can't handle all of that loudness anymore. I hate watching movies at my brother's house as he blasts it the way I used to. LOL

Many thanks in advance!

Nightfall

Some will agree, others will not, that the RTA-12B and C are the best of all the RTA's.

I'm sure that any of the SDA's, except maybe the CRS, will match or exceed the bass performance of the entire RTi and RTiA line and will be better, in general, for music. I would say the same for the RTA-12B and C's. As far as specs, the RTi12's are 30Hz and the RTA-12's and SDA 2B's are off the top of my head in the 17-18Hz range.

@nbrowser had RTiA7's, later bought a pair of SDA 2's, and moved the RTiA's to his bedroom because he liked the SDA's better.

Chops

I was actually talking with another member here that has a beautiful pair of restored/upgraded RTA 12C's for sale, but I don't think he wants to ship them. I would love to have them as all I have read is how much better the RTA 12B/C were compared to the rest of that line and even some of the SDA line. That says a lot, hence why I decided to contact him.

I really hope he responds back as he did ask where in FL I lived. Keeping my fingers, toes and eyes crossed!

teekay0007

Chops wrote: »

How far up the "food chain" so to speak would I have to go in the RTA or SDA line to get the same kind of bass response, midrange naturalness and open top end as the RTi12's?

In the SDA line, you'd need go no further up than a pair of SDA-2Bs, or 2As.

In the RTA line, I think the RTA-11T or 11TL, and definitely the 15TL would do the trick for you. Maybe the RTA-12B/Cs too, I just haven't heard them.

westmassguy

I'll echo some of what others have said regarding the vintage Polks. The RTA-12 was Polks Flagship Stereo Speaker and deservedly so. It's a big, honking, 80s speaker however. Same applies to the SDA 2A/2B. The tall and narrow RTAs are similar to what you have now for the most part. Of the three, I'd recommend the 11T/TL. It goes deeper than the 8T, and doesn't have phase and placement problems like the 15TL does (although the 15TL does go deeper). Once upgraded, the RTA-11 is a superb speaker for 2 channel and Home Theater.
For SDAs, don't discount the CRS+. The 86' version is 3rd generation, the 87'/89' are 4th generation. All are capable of copious amounts of deep bass when upgraded. The 86'/3rd generation will be more expensive to upgrade over the 87'/89' 4th generation however. All the models I mentioned can be used as is, or fully upgraded. The sky is the limit as far as upgrades go.

leftwinger57

I live in a 1 bedroom apt. and grabbed some 2Bs for $50 and play at low to moderate volumes during certain times and others I let them sing. Even before modding them the bass slam was incredible. Adding the Dyanmat and BH-5, tweeters et al even increased the sound dramatically. If your lender speakers are that big already then you can have 2Bs. Now the caveat w/ SDAs is they like clean power and the usual amount is 100 to 200 watts a side to get the full potential out of them. I never owned any other Polk product so no joy there.

Dave you seem to be an early riser like me. I've been up for hours already.... lol

westmassguy

I get bouts of insomnia, so I do a little work, and check out the forum

nspindel

Anyone who insinuates that CRS+ don't dig deep in the bass department has not listened to a good pair of CRS+. The bass performance I get from my 4.1 TL's is mind-blowing. Every person I have demo'd my system to has a jaw-drop reaction when they realize there is no subwoofer.

I'm not saying they are the right speaker for you, only you can decide that. All I'm saying is don't cross them off your list because you think they will lack deep forceful bass.

I have owned 1C's, 2B's and the CRS+'s which I brought to 4.1TL spec. All three pair had crossovers upgraded with Sonicaps, new inductors, and new resistors, so it's a fairly apples to apples comparison.

Remember, though, SDA's are very power greedy. It takes a lot to get the best from a pair of SDA's. I'm using a Krell KAV-2250. And of course, don't forget the Dreadnaught!

tonyb

I'll throw my .02 in.

First off, your trying to compare two different sound signatures in speakers between the SDA's and RTI's. If you like the 12's, why not just look for a good used set ? Older SDA's most likely are going to need some parts updated too so take that into consideration. IMHO....SDA's are the better speaker, but the RTI's do better at lower volumes which you need in an apartment. SDA's need some juice flowing into them to really wake them up.

Given your situation, I would stick with the 12's, depending on your wallet, I might wait for a decent pair of SDA's and be ready to jump. The smaller CRS's with rebuild crossovers is probably your huckleberry for apartment living. Either way, SDA's won't sound like RTI's, if that's what your asking.

leftwinger57

I've got a question for you dudes professing the attributes of the CRS+. I know nothing about them but keep hearing that you need the requisite stands to make them work right. These are harder to come by than the speakers themselves, so I hear so what do you guys use instead of the stands ?

vmaxer

I have a set of the originals, not sure the are required, seems like a good stand the correct height would work. It would probably be hard to find a set due to the size of the speakers??

westmassguy

leftwinger57 wrote: »

I've got a question for you dudes professing the attributes of the CRS+. I know nothing about them but keep hearing that you need the requisite stands to make them work right. These are harder to come by than the speakers themselves, so I hear so what do you guys use instead of the stands ?

Lew, the original stands are nothing special. It's just square stock, that any competent fabricator can whip together. Any quality stand of the right height, and a wide rectangular base would do also. I believe Larry made some museum quality stands a while back, that were drop dead gorgeous. I think Neil has a pair.

leftwinger57

Dave, your way to knowledgeable. You probably forgot more than I had ever absorbed in my lifetime. Thanks again for a change.

voltz

I have the CRS+'s with the stands and yes there is nothing special about the stands,, my CRS's have not had the crossovers redone yet but the bass seem pretty dang good to me already

Chops

Thanks everyone so far for your input! I really appreciate it!

tonyb wrote: »

I'll throw my .02 in.

First off, your trying to compare two different sound signatures in speakers between the SDA's and RTI's. If you like the 12's, why not just look for a good used set ? Older SDA's most likely are going to need some parts updated too so take that into consideration. IMHO....SDA's are the better speaker, but the RTI's do better at lower volumes which you need in an apartment. SDA's need some juice flowing into them to really wake them up.

Given your situation, I would stick with the 12's, depending on your wallet, I might wait for a decent pair of SDA's and be ready to jump. The smaller CRS's with rebuild crossovers is probably your huckleberry for apartment living. Either way, SDA's won't sound like RTI's, if that's what your asking.

Yes, I'm wanting to compare two different sound signatures, but I'm not wanting one to sound like the other. I like the sound of the RTi12's enough, but I'm not exactly getting what I really want.

To be honest, the midrange does lack a slight bit of body and warmth in the lower midrange/mid-bass. At times, vocals sound a bit disconnected. However, a little higher up in frequency they sound fine. Singers that don't have much in the way of bass in their voice sound perfectly fine, but once you get someone with a little bass to their voice or singing style, then you notice it.

From what I gather, the RTA and SDA series have good, lush mids which is ideal for me. My main concern is the bass extension. I listen to a lot of acoustic, orchestral and pipe organ music, so they need to really dig deep, down to around 20-25 Hz, if not lower. And I don't want it to sound strained. Again, they won't be played loud as I live in an apartment, but I still want/need that bass without the need of subwoofers.

Just a side note, I have a minty pair of Genesis Physics II's that I completely rebuilt a few years ago, pretty much the same thing you guys on here do, new terminal plates, binding posts, wiring, crossover components, etc, etc. They use a single 1" inverted dome tweeter, a single 8" paper mid-woofer, and a single 10" paper passive radiator (PR) in an enclosure roughly 2 cf. They're rated freq resp is 28 Hz to 20 kHz, and they dig just as deep as the NHT's and Polk's in room.

The RTA 12C which is the one I really want I feel should be able to do the same if not more since it has dual 6.5" mid-woofers and a 12" PR, not to mention an enclosure nearly twice the size of the Genesis.

I know it seems a bit juvenile to go on so much about the bass capabilities, but that's really the foundation of all music, especially pipe organ and large orchestral pieces. And if not for the instruments creating that bass, the large open venue that they are recorded in breathe, creating low register bass to give a sense of space of said venue.

And just for fun, here's a couple pics of those Genesis II's that I rebuilt.

Before...





After...

Nightfall

I can assure you that the RTA-12B/C's have deep, clean, musical bass. I don't think that they'll do -3db @ 20Hz though. I'm not even sure that a pair of 1.2's will play 20Hz with any kind of authority, though I could be wrong. Especially since you say "if not lower". You might need a sub for those frequencies.

boston1450

Dang Chops. I need to go look n see if my speakers are on the workbench

nspindel

Guilty as charged!

txcoastal1

nspindel wrote: »

Guilty as charged!

Lucky man...Larry did you right

nspindel

Larry is the man!

Nightfall

xcapri79 wrote: »

Great sounding but hideous in looks.

I can't fathom somebody thinking these are hideous. If these are hideous:



Then what are these?

Nightfall

Those are Faustin's. I can only guess that he was veneering them in the garage.

westmassguy

Judging by the type of music you listen to, the only Polks that will get you in the neighborhood, are the original SRSs, 1.2s, and the 1.2TLs. Their overall frequency response is listed as 10 to 26KHz for all three. -3db for the 1.2s is 27 - 20KHz and 27 - 25KHz for the 1.2TLs. The original SRSs -3db is most likely similar to the 1.2s. The deep bass can be improved with upgraded Sub-Bass Drive Inductors. Whether that will get you -3db @ 20Hz is anyone's guess. They're big, beautiful beasts though. If you're thinking of something smaller, then it sounds like you'll need a high-end subwoofer to get you 20Hz and below.

skrol

Having owned the RTA-11TL with RDO198 and XO upgrade and the LSi15 with the sub upgrade, I can say that I prefer the bass of the RTA-11TL. It is deep, tight and clean. The LSi15 tend to be very room and position dependent. They sound good when placed properly with room to breath. Unfortunately it is not practical to achieve this in my listening room. However, everything else goes to the LSi15. The imaging is fantastic. The RTA-11TL is easier to drive while the LSi15 needs a good high current amp.

Bottom line, the LSi15 is an incredible speaker if it is placed properly and fed properly. The RTA-11TL is more forgiving and has better bass based on my experience. However, that may change if I upgrade my amp to something more powerful.

nspindel

Any SDA will also be very sensitive to room placement.

leftwinger57

Going back to his original mid post he lives in an apt. Personally I can't see 1.2s living there. Kinda wide and huge. The 12s or like many here suggested CRS+ or 2Bs would fit. We need to inform him that besides lots of power any SDA needs to placed accordingly. Not more than 7/9 feet apart no tow in out and absolutely front facing and the i/c is a must. That's a bunch of things to consider. Looks like he can handle mods on his own w/ some direction if he asks.

Chops

Guys, it's obvious from what everyone is saying that none of the average sized vintage Polk's are going to deliver any "real" sub-bass that I'm looking for other than the largest SDA models, and I'm just not ready to throw that kind of money into a set of speakers that I have no idea on how they sound.

Also, the older LSi15/25 aren't even rated to go as low as my current RTi12's, though everyone says that they are more refined and more suitable for music. The RT3000p and SRT look promising, though no idea on how they sound. I think these were mostly designed with HT in mind but doesn't mean they wouldn't sound good for music. Not to mention that no matter where I look online, it seems that no one is wanting to ship anything these days. All "local pickup only" BS...

Of course, there's a lot more to my requirements than just bass. So far what I've read around here and on a couple of other well known forums, I've heard some say the midrange on the RTA/SDA are great where others say the midrange is colored and/or cupped sounding, neither of which I want in a speaker. Then others say the midrange is too tubby or chesty sounding. Also nothing I want in a speaker.

There's also a lot of mixed reviews on treble capabilities, but of course that can be fixed with tweeter swaps and crossover upgrades, so that one isn't that much of a big deal.

Then there's the issue with imaging and sound staging. It's seems that only the RTA 12 and SDA's are any good at doing that. Again, none of which that are capable of the bass I require without going to the largest SDA's.

Speaker size isn't a big deal other than carrying them up three flights of stairs. My room is large enough to accommodate even the largest SDA's properly.

So at this point it looks like I'm back to square one with my RTi12's, or unless I find something else that comes along, whether it be Polk or some other brand, or eventually go back to my NHT's.

Nightfall

If smaller SDA's or RTA-12's wouldn't be good enough for you, this is to say you're also not happy with your current RTi's bass performance?

Chops

@Nightfall

No, the RTi's bass is perfectly fine, easily reaching a very usable 20 Hz if not lower while staying very tuneful and detailed.

On the other hand, everyone here keeps saying that the smaller SDA's and the RTA 12's won't be able to do the same and will be rolling off much sooner. I'm simply going by what you all are saying since you guys are the ones with the speakers, or at least had at some point. I've never heard them or seen them, so I have no idea.

Chops

DSkip wrote: »

Tubby or Chesty? Never heard that. What I have heard is bloated bass/midbass from some of the monitor series.

Exactly. Bloated mid-bass is the same as tubby/chesty.

That could be tuned out with the crossover, but not by simply upgrading the crossover components. In order to tune that out would require a full redesign with extra filters to re-voice the speaker. Just swapping old components for new won't fix that.

That bloat could also be enclsure panel resonance caused from the lack of enclosure bracing.

ambiophonics

I tried to check the specs of the RTI-12 online - Crutchfield says they're done -3db at 30hz. Doesn't seem far off from some of the SDAs being discussed.


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