HDMI cables yeah I'm at it again.

mantis

What's up everyone?
As most of you know I'm a Audioquest only user now and have been for quite some time.
Over the years I have slowly moved away from everything else I have been using and now my system only has Audioquest cables in it.
HDMI is something I have been looking at that improvements really can't be had here once you get the design , transfer and no loss done. But something happened when I upgraded to a higher end cable that I didn't expect.
So I started out my HDMI quest with Binary. They are a company that makes custom Installer grade stuff and it's usually pretty good. I had my entire system wired with their HDMI cables as I didn't think it would make any difference to go with a higher end cable from anyone.
One thing I noticed about the Binary HDMI cables is that IR transfer over IR emitters got interfered with when you got to close to the HDMI cable. Also the RF antenna would go crazy and make your RF remote not work anymore. So I decided to re wire with Audioquest and see if that would make any difference at all.
My RF interference issue went away and my system seemed like it sounded better. I went with Cinnamon and found an amazing difference. On my Blu ray player ( Cambridge Audio at the time) I tried some SACD and I couldn't believe that I could hear a clarity difference. I thought " I must be elfin nuts to think a HDMI digital cable could do anything to the audio as it's digital. I've been down this road before with Optical and Digital coax and came to the conclusion that there is NO difference at all with Optical vs Coax of the same level quality. Then I went further and noticed that if you got much higher end Optical or Digital coax cables , you got NO improvements at all. I went into Kimber , Cardas and Transparent as well as Monster , Straight wire and Tributaries. None of their higher end digital cables made any improvements in audio even using 100k costing systems and beyond. I spent countless hours listening with Krell and Dynaudio , B&W and what have you back then and none of these extremely high end systems seemed to be able to revile any sonic benefits to buying higher end digital cables over good quality well built models. Now I did hear a difference with entry level quality Optical and digital cables as they didn't properly carry the signal from A to B so some kind of loss what happening causing the sound to be lost or cloudy.

So back to this HDMI thing. I recently been trying out the Carbon Level HDMI cables. I added a Chocolate level HDMI cable to my system and compared to the Cinnamon , I didn't notice or hear any difference. I was considering upgrading to Chocolate for the sheer hell of it but since I didn't notice any improvements , why spend the money right?
But the Carbon level is a thicker cable , more Silver and has Silver ends. OK Silver is a better conductor then Gold Plated Copper , Silver Plated Copper should yield something right?
So I got a 1m Carbon for my Blu ray player ( BDP62FD ELITE) and just decided to watch a few movies over time to 1 break in the cable and 2 see if there is any improvement at all over a Chocolate and Cinnamon level HDMI cable.
Well there is the black levels seemed to be more stable and more even. It's not like it was night and day but I noticed something looking different. It was as if the gray scale was just a tad more controlled. I put the Cinnamon back in and it didn't look much different if at all so I thought maybe it was me. I did the same with the Chocolate and didn't notice any difference with the Cinnamon. I put the Carbon back in and everything looked like I changed the mode or something. I checked my TV's settings ( 60 inch Elite KURO) and nothing was changed or different. But the Carbon changes something and without my ISF gear here to test it with my meter, I have really no idea whats really going on. I will find out as I'm gonna bring home my ISF gear and test this video as it shouldn't change especially since I was already using high quality HDMI cables both with Silver plating over Copper conductors and built correctly.
Audio wise I also noticed a clarity upgrade. I was ever so slight but I noticed pings and cracks to be more pronounced. Nothing else really seemed to change but small things where sticking out after a few changes back and forth between the 3 cables.
When I went from Binary to Cinnamon I noticed audio only differences. Never any video that I could see. I had a Futijstu 50 inch Plasma then before my Kuro and that tv was just about as good as the Elite , it was very close in quality. But now these Carbon cables are making small differences in my system , I put one on my Apple TV and Cable box and I noticed the black levels improve slightly. Honestly I feel crazy even talking about it as I'm a very firm believer that once you get it right , there is no improvements that can be made. I've seen it so many times over my time in the field and in my personally systems over the decades that with HDMI once it's right , thats it your done.
Now as far as cost to increase performance is concerned , there is just about NO value here at all. The amount of money one has to spend to get such tiny benefits I feel is totally not worth it. I can rewire my entire system back with Cinnamon and not miss the Carbons at all. It's so tiny in improvements I don't think I would even consider ever going any higher or really spending the money to climb the ladder of HDMI to the top and see what they could do. It just in my very strong opinion just isn't worth the price. maybe those very small differences would be worth it in a much higher end system that what I own and if I had that kind of cash to spend thousands of dollars on HDMI cables I would. But honestly I just don't see any value in putting my money there. I'd rather get a better speakers or better amps etc.
maybe getting a 4K tv at some point makes sense when the content gets to 4k and 1080p is used less and less. I'm so still loving my Kuro I don't see any reason to get a new TV except I wouldn't mind a larger screen. 60 inch is very nice but I've been doing 65 inch and larger TV's and thats just really nice having those extra inches. I'm not willing to go quantity over quality so it's why I stay with the Kuro.

So to sum up this HDMI thing , I think and still believe that when you get into quality HDMI cables like any Audioquest level , you have properly built HDMI cables. Super small improvements can be had when you get into Silver conductors but the cost heavily out weighs the benefits. It the cost was much smaller, I would only use the top quality HDMI cables and go to bed knowing I have the best possible signal transfer.
This is also something I suggest anyone performs on there system to see if there is any value to them in spending crazy amount of money on HDMI cables. Crazy is relative to the person spending the money. If you have no issue spending a few hundred bucks on a single HDMI cable then hey go for it. But if your like me and want to get the most out of your system without going insane on things like cables and wondering if the benefits could be better if you took that money and got better stuff.
I'll snap some pic's of all this madness.

PerfectCreature

I upgraded from a regular Vizio HDMI cable to a the Audioquest HDMI-1, and saw a noticeable difference in picture quality and clarity when watching Blu-Rays on my PS4.
I do not feel as the picture quality could get any better, and I use optical cables for my sound, so I am content.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mantis! Very good. I'm trying to sort out AES/EBU at the moment.

gudnoyez

Dan I bought a couple of Chocolates because you mentioned them in another thread, paired up with a 4k set and a Oppo 105D. I don't think I even will try moving up the chain, we watched a couple of Blu Rays last night and at times me and the wife would look at each other and say wow what a nice picture. I'm happy using AQ Chocolates!

mantis

I find the Chocolate cable a very nice cable. The difference between the Chocolate and Carbon is so minimum I don't see any reason to upgrade unless your willing to spend that much more to gain so little.

mantis

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PerfectCreature

That is some impressive cable management. I need to get my situation straitened out like that!

gudnoyez

So Dan which Audioquest usb cable do you recommend to hook my laptop up to my Oppo? Pearl, Forest, or Cinamon, the Carbon is out of my budget. I'm sure any of the 3 will be an improvement over the generic one that came with one of my printers.

gudnoyez

I guess the only choices are Forest, Cinnamon, or Carbon, not sure why I mentioned Peral, I need 5 feet and wonder if the Carbon is that much of a game changer over the other two? I agree how nice and organized your cable management is.

mantis

gudnoyez wrote: »

So Dan which Audioquest usb cable do you recommend to hook my laptop up to my Oppo? Pearl, Forest, or Cinamon, the Carbon is out of my budget. I'm sure any of the 3 will be an improvement over the generic one that came with one of my printers.

I did a full use shootout a few years ago. I'll see if I can find a link. If you look at my AVR pic you will see I'm using a Carbon. Most of my system is carbon level including sub cables.
If carbon is out of the question, the Forest usb cable is very impressive for the money.

mantis

Here you go
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/148057/usb-shootout-v3-enter-carbon

mikeyb128

I was never a believer in expensive hdmi cables. I upgraded my mono price cables to audio quest and solved all the weird handshake issues I was having in my system. Sometimes audio would drop, and light snow.The mono price cables would quit working out of the blue. Audioquest cables fixed all my issues, and it seemed to provide a sharper picture as well. I only have pearls, but it was a nice starting point. Would like to upgrade to their mid end at some point in the future.

mantis

You know I've seen many people buy cheap HDMI cables and have the same issues you had plus others.
Cheap cables are cheap cables and if one decides this is the right thing to do then so be it.

mantis

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I was never a believer in expensive hdmi cables. I upgraded my mono price cables to audio quest and solved all the weird handshake issues I was having in my system. Sometimes audio would drop, and light snow.The mono price cables would quit working out of the blue. Audioquest cables fixed all my issues, and it seemed to provide a sharper picture as well. I only have pearls, but it was a nice starting point. Would like to upgrade to their mid end at some point in the future.

The Pearls are high quality cables. Nothing wrong with them at all.

mikeyb128

[/quote] The Pearls are high quality cables. Nothing wrong with them at all. [/quote]

Love the pearls! My theater is almost entirely Audioquest. With the exception of some ps audio power cables and MIT cables for my front 3. Even my 2 channel system has some Audioquest in there. Great stuff, been a fan for years.

PerfectCreature

How would you compare the Pearls to the Cinnimon? What about the chocolate?
Is that extra 1.25 of silver worth the improvements for twice the price at each level?

I have the HDMI 1 but moved it to audio purposes since the home theater system gave me better output through HDMI vs optical.

Looking for video perspective on a 1080p tv.

mrloren

Last year I was at a garage sale where they had this box of HDMI cables. Looked in and 3 where Audio Quest green ones. I was joking when I offered them something low like $25 and the lady said sold. I went home hooked them up replacing my Costco cables from the Sony BDP, WD live hub and cable box. I did not notice that much of a difference on the Sony 52" LCD but the audio was greatly improved. With the Samsung 60" LED TV the picture is fantastic.

Come to find out a few months later, the husband got caught with another woman and the wife sold off all his stuff before the divorce. My friend who lives across the street said she sold off ALL the HT and audio gear for dirt just to piss the guy off. I know the guy had some good high end gear too, should have kept it in his pants.

lineberryw

Have you found any place to get these cables discount? Otherwise I know you spent more the the most in cables. Nice power cords I had no idea they made those. You should skip the 65" and go into projection. That is unless you can get hold of a ZT line Panasonic.

quicksilvergts

Great write up Mantis. Thanks! I have been using 4 Audioquest Forest for awhile. Have been thinking about 2 cinnamon ones for budget reasons.

However last night while watching Interstellar through my Roku 3. About 1/4 way through I noticed this very bad static even my wife said " um babe, is the movie going to sound like that during the whole movie?" Lol. I was very bad even at -25 it was very noticeable and towards -10 was atrocious lol.

Tonight, I thought maybe a ground loop or something with my cable management(I straightened it a few weeks ago) and started to isolate it. Well come to find out the Audioquest forest failed. I am trucking a Roswill HS HDMI for meantime. I suppose atleast 2 cinnamon cable are being ordered Friday/Saturday for ps3 and SC1222

Cheers,

polkfarmboy

I just make sure my hdmi cables have silver in them as it always makes the pictire look good. I had the wireworld platinum hdmi and it was good for is2 data but a waste of money for video.

I always wanted to see an isf thread on cables.

mrloren

just need to win the lottery so I can buy these nice cables

polkfarmboy

mrloren wrote: »

just need to win the lottery so I can buy these nice cables

You need money for those cables but you dont need alot for great cables.

BlueFox

We recently had a MIT cable evaluation event, and one of the cables was an HDMI cable. When I started I was not expecting much, if any, difference between my current (supplied with Oppo 103) cable, and the MIT. Anyway, the MIT impressed me. The colors were more vivid, and the picture was more detailed. Needless to say, that changed my attitude towards HDMI cables.

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

We recently had a MIT cable evaluation event, and one of the cables was an HDMI cable. When I started I was not expecting much, if any, difference between my current (supplied with Oppo 103) cable, and the MIT. Anyway, the MIT impressed me. The colors were more vivid, and the picture was more detailed. Needless to say, that changed my attitude towards HDMI cables.

You make my case for cables, generally speaking. If you never tried the MIT cable, you would still be happy with the el cheapo supplied with the oppo. Seeing is believing in video, as well as hearing is believing in audio. Point being of course is to try different stuff every so often. Not every attempt will be a hit, but you may discover some things along the way.

Toolfan66

I purchased some AQ chocolates with my new curve TV, I doubt I will try anything else as I'm more then satisfied with the PQ...

[Deleted User]

Will the TV melt the cables?
HAHAHA! I kill me.

mrbiron

Toolfan66 wrote: »

I purchased some AQ chocolates with my new curve TV, I doubt I will try anything else as I'm more then satisfied with the PQ...

Is there any difference with these on a cable box or is that a waste of time?

mantis

PerfectCreature wrote: »

How would you compare the Pearls to the Cinnimon? What about the chocolate?
Is that extra 1.25 of silver worth the improvements for twice the price at each level?

I have the HDMI 1 but moved it to audio purposes since the home theater system gave me better output through HDMI vs optical.

Looking for video perspective on a 1080p tv.

It's a really tuff question to answer as I have tested from Pearl to Carbon and other brands.
I can tell you this , first off search for my HDMI reviews. But I'll give you some highlights now. When you enter into Audioquest built HDMI cables , you are getting cables that are built correctly and pass spec with flying colors. These cables are built to perfection from Pearl to Carbon and since I have not used the higher end model I'l assume that holds true up the ladder.
Now as far as performance goes I have only notice very slight improvements going up. From Forest to Cinnamon, it's an audio improvement but it's not night and day like analog cables can be. It's also not much improvement on picture quality. But I did see and hear some improvements as slight as they where as I moved up the ladder.
As far as value goes I don't think they bring much after the Pearl and Forest. Maybe the Cinnamon still holds some strong value as they are IMO a perfect cable.
I ventured into Chocolate and now Carbon just to see if there was anything that can be done for improvements in the digital transfer which IMO is already perfect as perfect can be with a cable sending signal. Again very slight improvements where gained but didn't equal the cost IMO for them.
Going from Cinnamon to Chocolate I was very hard pressed to witness any difference at all. I may wanted to justify that the Chocolate is a better cable over the Cinnamon but I don't think so at least not with my findings. Even the mighty level of Carbon really didn't review much in the way of value at all. Once you reach the Cinnamon level your really not getting much in return. I'd say at full retail your wasting your money unless you have a much higher end system then I have and can witness these small gains that I'm not getting.
I really also believe that ones system can only be so good. Better quality cables will not benefit it IF they exceed the abilities of ones system. I look at it like tire speed ratings. If your buying the highest rated tires for speed but your car can't go over 124 MPH what would be the benefit of having such high end tires?

On this forum I probably tested more miles of cable then anyone would mentally stand. I've been doing it for so many years and why I keep giving it a run is 1 it's fun , 2 wire is one of my passions ( I'm buts I know) and 3 I'm exposed to all this wire and hear all the fuss that this does that and we had some break throughs in technology etc etc etc. So I like to call them on that and see and hear it for myself in my systems.

mantis

mrloren wrote: »

Last year I was at a garage sale where they had this box of HDMI cables. Looked in and 3 where Audio Quest green ones. I was joking when I offered them something low like $25 and the lady said sold. I went home hooked them up replacing my Costco cables from the Sony BDP, WD live hub and cable box. I did not notice that much of a difference on the Sony 52" LCD but the audio was greatly improved. With the Samsung 60" LED TV the picture is fantastic.

Come to find out a few months later, the husband got caught with another woman and the wife sold off all his stuff before the divorce. My friend who lives across the street said she sold off ALL the HT and audio gear for dirt just to piss the guy off. I know the guy had some good high end gear too, should have kept it in his pants.

I read these findings all the time not just in home audio but guitar guys as well. They go out and find guitars used just like this for pennies to the dollar. I gotta find a way to get myself to find these killer deals. I guess luck ha much to do with it.

mantis

quicksilvergts wrote: »

Great write up Mantis. Thanks! I have been using 4 Audioquest Forest for awhile. Have been thinking about 2 cinnamon ones for budget reasons.

However last night while watching Interstellar through my Roku 3. About 1/4 way through I noticed this very bad static even my wife said " um babe, is the movie going to sound like that during the whole movie?" Lol. I was very bad even at -25 it was very noticeable and towards -10 was atrocious lol.

Tonight, I thought maybe a ground loop or something with my cable management(I straightened it a few weeks ago) and started to isolate it. Well come to find out the Audioquest forest failed. I am trucking a Roswill HS HDMI for meantime. I suppose atleast 2 cinnamon cable are being ordered Friday/Saturday for ps3 and SC1222

Cheers,

I can only assume you broke it during your cable management. I have been installed Audioquest cables since I believe it was around 2004 and I have yet to see a broken Audioquest cable. Even ones that have been in the field since then are still working perfectly. Honestly Audioquest cables don't fail ,you can break them like anything else but I haven't seen one fail or even bad out of the box never.

Going Cinnamon you might experience some Audio benefits and possibly some video improvements.

mantis

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I just make sure my hdmi cables have silver in them as it always makes the pictire look good. I had the wireworld platinum hdmi and it was good for is2 data but a waste of money for video.

I always wanted to see an isf thread on cables.

You may yet get your wish. When I have some free time I'm gonna bring home our ISF gear . Keep an eye out for that.