Dear god help me

F1nut

I don't really see anything wrong with the room. It has carpet, curtains, the wood panels behind the speakers, etc. The issue as I understand it is not one related to refective surfaces.

sandworms

Polkie2009 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Nope, hadn't had a chance to get an ear on the Venere's yet. Going off my perceptions of the Amanti, Cremona, and Grands.

Maybe if the OP would chime back in and discuss the sound he likes or is looking for, gave us some more info as to the gear/cables/room, we could help him. Otherwise we are all just pissin' in the wind here.

+100 Agree, OP needs to chime back in, so much more info needed here to be able to help him. He mentioned he tried running his Oppo 105D as a preamp to his power amp and he didn't care for it? I wonder if he followed all the instructions in the Oppo manual about doing this and the procedures for setting the speaker distances and levels etc. As mentioned before,what cables were used?

I went into the Oppo menu well before trying my direct to amp hookup, the crossover was set to 40hz, distance at 12', and no level set avail. The Oppo has a variable or fixed volume setting I obviously set to variable for the experiment. I wish you guys could hear what I'm hearing, I'm pretty sure you would run from the room screaming expletives.

sandworms

F1nut wrote: »

It's definitely not your Oppo 105D that's causing issues. I'd say it's a little on the lean side but definitely not problematic.

It all starts with the source and if it's on the lean side like other Oppo's I've heard, that would be problematic for me.

Hmm, I bought the Oppo due to glowing reviews, but again, I have not auditioned any component in my system prior to purchase, maybe that is my downfall. If I tell my wife I need to reboot I think I'll be single before I finish the sentence

F1nut

The oppo and the Onkyo each have well regarded dacs

There's more to good sound than just the DAC. For sure, the AVR isn't doing you any favors. A dedicated pre amp would make a huge difference. I've never heard your Oppo used as a pre amp, but since you say there is little difference between it and the AVR, I would have to say it's not doing a good job as a pre amp either.

Polkie2009

DSkip wrote: »

Gorgeous setup man. What I see is a ton of reflective surfaces with very little to absorb that energy. Even the leather couch isn't helping your situation. I'd suggest throwing some thick blankets on the couches and see if that does anything to help the sound - you might do the same for that coffee table. I'm not saying to do it permanently, but as a trial.

My CD remark - you should try physical media and see if it sounds any better if you haven't already. While you may have the files saved to an uncompressed file, your streaming software might be compressing it to make it easier on the network.

I'm seeing the same thing here as Skip, can't hurt to try a blanket or throw on the couches and I'm sure putting a linen on the glass top on the coffee table in front would help tame the listening area from your couch. How did you end up putting the wooden panels(diffusors) up front? Did you try any acoustic panels at first reflection areas on side walls? Little things can make a difference, just have to experiment some and I know it can get frustrating.

TNHNDYMAN

Sandworms- You are getting a lot of great suggestions, but I hear you on the room is the only one you have to work with. That being said, I do see a couple things I would try and then recalibrate the onkyo just to see if it does anything.....
-
1. The coffee table has two drawers on the bottom and could be blocking some sound as well as a glass top. Why not remove it to another room for just a quick test session. Leave an open space between yourself and the speakers.

2. The speakers look to be toed in at least 25 degrees.... maybe you could go back to a little more like a SDA setup with no toe in and see where that puts the sweet spot.

3. The large picture above the love seat.... just take it down for now since it's a big reflective surface.

4. The pictures on the table directly behind the couch could be reflecting energy back toward your listening position..... just lay them flat for the experiment.

5. The beautiful glass curio cabinet in the corner is certainly no bass trap with it being a large curved reflective surface.....throw a heavy blanket over it and put a pillow on top to hold the blanket or some books.

I would then try to rerun the calibration program with the onkyo and see if the values change significantly and then listen and see if you get any improvement. Are you running the dual subs when doing 2 ch listening? IF so then are you using the stereo setting as listening mode with the onkyo? What are the towers crossovers set to? IF not running the subs then are you listening in pure direct? IF so then my onkyo AVR just puts out the signal as received without and of the room correction added to it.

I realize these suggestions will not meet with wife approval. I have several curios filled with antique glass my wife collects. Every time I make a gear purchase I bring her home a piece of glass and she stays off my arse. The picture over the love seat could maybe find another spot in the room or another room. The coffee table could be replaced for a lot less than the leather couches. This is if you hear improvement or to at least let you know what is compromising your sound.

I still think the P5 could be the piece that makes a world of difference to your system. Others such as Nooshingjohn have a little deeper pockets and I'm sure the pass lab pre is awesome and in another league but I don't think it's the answer for a dual purpose system. I believe Music Direct or other retailers have a 30 day in home trial period where you could test it and return if not satisfied.

Sorry for the long rambling post, but you asked for ideas and these are mine, I'll sit back and hope to learn along with you from other inputs and ideas. Best of luck to you.

audiocr381ve

F1nut wrote: »

It's definitely not your Oppo 105D that's causing issues. I'd say it's a little on the lean side but definitely not problematic.

It all starts with the source and if it's on the lean side like other Oppo's I've heard, that would be problematic for me.

Sure, but his source is not bad. I said the Oppo was on the lean side. I didn't say it had "no clarity, no life..." and that it sounded like a garbled mess. It's a phenomenal piece of gear and it's not the problem.

Treat that room with some absorption. Don't get all technical about it. Just treat the first reflection points and rear wall to start. Please do not go out and spend a bunch of money without treating that room!

audiocr381ve

F1nut wrote: »

That's a nice looking room with plenty of damping, so I think you rule that part out. Is everything including your amp running through the APC?

With much respect I disagree big time. Do you think recording studios knock out huge acoustic problems with carpet and curtains? No way. I'm not saying to approach treating your room like you're going to record an album. I'm saying that there is without a doubt issues in that room that can be treated for not a lot of money, and you could potentially LOVE what you already have.

My friend, treat your room. Absorption will knock out so many problems. Take a moment when things are quiet around the house and simply clap your hands in your room. Do you hear any flutter echo? Any strange sounding reverberation? Treat it. Panels like DarqueKnight's with the beveled edges would look excellent in your room (but ask your wife first).

F1nut

I wish you guys could hear what I'm hearing, I'm pretty sure you would run from the room screaming expletives.

I'm getting mixed messages. What makes me run from a room are piercing highs, which very well could be related to the room. However, you are talking about a lack of clarity, no soul and a garbled mess, which to me means a flat/dead sound and would not be related to reflective surfaces. So, which is it?

Hmm, I bought the Oppo due to glowing reviews

They raved about the 83 and the 95 too. I found both to be dry/etched with no soul and I did leave the room.

headrott

sandworms wrote: »

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

Room treatments and a Parasound P5 would be a good starting point is my guess. Some nice sources and pieces of gear in your sig so I'm thinking the room and using the AVR as a pre are your weakest links.

I'm in the same boat trying to use a dual HT/2ch system in the same room and it does cause complications. The P5 to me looks like the most reasonable bang for the buck piece of gear out there to combine two systems on the fly. Good luck.

That ( the room ) may be my downfall, unfortunately it is the only room I have, and it is a mix use room with my HT. If I have to get a pre to get the sound I want so be it, I just can't believe it will be that drastically different than my avr. The oppo and the Onkyo each have well regarded dacs

I think you will be amazed at the difference a quality pre-amplifier can make to two channel music. I used to use a Denon AVR (15 years ago) as my pre-amp. After buying a tube amp (and using it with my Denon AVR), I bought a dedicated 2 channel pre-amp and the difference after putting the tube pre-amp into the system was very enlightening on what a better (and excellent) tube pre-amp can make to your audio experience.

Buy a quality pre-amp and you will get closer to the audio you are looking for.

**You may also need to buy different equipment (source, speakers, amp, etc.) to get the sound you are looking for. The pre-amp is a great start though.**

headrott

F1nut wrote: »

The oppo and the Onkyo each have well regarded dacs

There's more to good sound than just the DAC. For sure, the AVR isn't doing you any favors. A dedicated pre amp would make a huge difference. I've never heard your Oppo used as a pre amp, but since you say there is little difference between it and the AVR, I would have to say it's not doing a good job as a pre amp either.

Completely agree with Jesse here.

deronb1

Did you like the sound with any of the above speakers?

tonyb

Here's my take on your situation.

The room....if anything seems to me to be on the over dampened side of things. Carpet....curtains in the back are absorbing the sound and not allowing reflections, lots of furniture. Add a layed back speaker and your sound may be too soft.

As already suggested, a good pre will add to your pleasure.

The most glaring thing I can see wrong, is your cables. From your SB to the OPPO, use a better digital cable besides the generic one your using. Find yourself a Blackcat Veloce used for under 80 bucks.

The AQ King Cobra's and Speaker cables to me are not a good match for what you have either. To my ears they are kind of lifeless in the mids and vocals. Try a cable with some more energy to them, Like MIT....maybe some PNF's or Harmonic technology, Reality cables, even the Kimber hero's and 4tc speaker cables to my ears have better energy than AQ.

None of this means anything though if the SF sound isn't for you, and it very well may not be. So before you start swapping stuff out, throw a pair of Polks up there, even if they are bookies and see how you like the sound. If the sound is still flat, then it's most likely gear related. If it sounds way better, try a different speaker, a more lively speaker, which I think is needed for that room anyway. A pair of Legacy Classics is more lively and may be a good fit for that room.

audiocr381ve

tonyb wrote: »

Here's my take on your situation.

The room....if anything seems to me to be on the over dampened side of things. Carpet....curtains in the back are absorbing the sound and not allowing reflections, lots of furniture. Add a layed back speaker and your sound may be too soft.

As already suggested, a good pre will add to your pleasure.

The most glaring thing I can see wrong, is your cables. From your SB to the OPPO, use a better digital cable besides the generic one your using. Find yourself a Blackcat Veloce used for under 80 bucks.

The AQ King Cobra's and Speaker cables to me are not a good match for what you have either. To my ears they are kind of lifeless in the mids and vocals. Try a cable with some more energy to them, Like MIT....maybe some PNF's or Harmonic technology, Reality cables, even the Kimber hero's and 4tc speaker cables to my ears have better energy than AQ.

None of this means anything though if the SF sound isn't for you, and it very well may not be. So before you start swapping stuff out, throw a pair of Polks up there, even if they are bookies and see how you like the sound. If the sound is still flat, then it's most likely gear related. If it sounds way better, try a different speaker, a more lively speaker, which I think is needed for that room anyway. A pair of Legacy Classics is more lively and may be a good fit for that room.

Over dampened Tony? Come on. Please don't mislead people into thinking that a friggen' curtain does the same thing as an absorption panel. A carpet cannot do what a bass trap does. I'm not advocating throwing a thousand panels in that room. I'm saying treating the first reflection points and rear wall would solve a lot of problems and bring some clarity, liveliness, and intelligibility. Tony please tell me you have more than just curtains and carpet.

I can say with certainty that your room will benefit from bass traps and absorption panels. And not in a small way.

nooshinjohn

audiocr381ve wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Here's my take on your situation.

The room....if anything seems to me to be on the over dampened side of things. Carpet....curtains in the back are absorbing the sound and not allowing reflections, lots of furniture. Add a layed back speaker and your sound may be too soft.

As already suggested, a good pre will add to your pleasure.

The most glaring thing I can see wrong, is your cables. From your SB to the OPPO, use a better digital cable besides the generic one your using. Find yourself a Blackcat Veloce used for under 80 bucks.

The AQ King Cobra's and Speaker cables to me are not a good match for what you have either. To my ears they are kind of lifeless in the mids and vocals. Try a cable with some more energy to them, Like MIT....maybe some PNF's or Harmonic technology, Reality cables, even the Kimber hero's and 4tc speaker cables to my ears have better energy than AQ.

None of this means anything though if the SF sound isn't for you, and it very well may not be. So before you start swapping stuff out, throw a pair of Polks up there, even if they are bookies and see how you like the sound. If the sound is still flat, then it's most likely gear related. If it sounds way better, try a different speaker, a more lively speaker, which I think is needed for that room anyway. A pair of Legacy Classics is more lively and may be a good fit for that room.

Over dampened Tony? Come on. Please don't mislead people into thinking that a friggen' curtain does the same thing as an absorption panel. A carpet cannot do what a bass trap does. I'm not advocating throwing a thousand panels in that room. I'm saying treating the first reflection points and rear wall would solve a lot of problems and bring some clarity, liveliness, and intelligibility. Tony please tell me you have more than just curtains and carpet.

I can say with certainty that your room will benefit from bass traps and absorption panels. And not in a small way.

Let's also stop pretending that the receiver is not the root cause of the issue here. A quality preamp will solve 75% or more of the issues the OP is having. I see nothing wrong with the room given the character of the speakers he is using.

tonyb

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Over dampened Tony?

What do you think carpeting/drapes and furniture do to a room ? Make it more lively ?

Skip,
I'll go with your assessment on the speaks as I've not heard them. If they are as lively as you say, then obviously there seems to be a synergy issue going on or the OP doesn't have the gear optimized in his settings.

One thing I think we can all agree on, the receiver isn't helping matters much.

deronb1

Definitely need more info. Did it EVER sound good? If so, with what setup? Changing
Speaks takes some getting used to. Ive pulled the trigger way to early before giving my ears a chance to settle in and adjust to the new sound signature.

audiocr381ve

tonyb wrote: »

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Over dampened Tony?

What do you think carpeting/drapes and furniture do to a room ? Make it more lively ?

Skip,
I'll go with your assessment on the speaks as I've not heard them. If they are as lively as you say, then obviously there seems to be a synergy issue going on or the OP doesn't have the gear optimized in his settings.

One thing I think we can all agree on, the receiver isn't helping matters much.

Obviously I'm not saying that, come on Tony. You're talking about a scooter vs a Ferrari here. Carpeting and drapes can tame reflections but absorption panels are designed for it. Remind me what carpeting and drapes are designed for? I hope you leave this conversation thinking about how you can help your own room because your carpet and drapes are knives at an acoustical gun fight. I'm guessing you don't though because you're just as stubborn as I am.

I'm trying to help the OP solve something so fundamental. The way his speakers are interacting with his room is such a crucial step and it's not worth looking over.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with the room given the character of the speakers he is using.

That's like saying you can tell if a car is running well from a picture. Unless you've been in that room how would you know? He'll never hear the amazing electronics that everyone is suggesting he buy if he's listening to them in a room with issues. Every room has inherent issues which simple absorption can help with. Case n' point and enjoy the ride fellas! Over and out.

tonyb

I agree to what your saying, and it's certainly an option behind the 2 front speakers where he seems to have 2 big wooden ...something. Lets keep this is perspective though. Look at the pics of the room....does it seem like a man decorated the room or a woman ? My guess, and I may be wrong, is a woman....who usually isn't going to go along with huge panels all over her living room.

Acoustic panels are but one thing in a long line of things many of us observed that could be changed or needed....not poo-pooing the idea. Sometimes though we can only deal with whats allowed, and so far we haven't heard from the man on that yet.

Sure acoustic panels are made for it, but don't discount the effects of the stuff I mentioned either, it does matter, all you have to do is empty a room to hear it.

That said, we can't go any further without some input from the OP with more details...otherwise we're all pissin' in the wind....again.

nooshinjohn

I think we can all agree that a dedicated preamp would be a very good place to start...

tonyb

Ha....I just said poo and pissin' and the censorbot 2000 must have been taking a nap.

sandworms

Hey guys, lots of good dialogue here, but I had a long day today with work and 2 volleyball leagues, so I will chime in tomorrow

sandworms

At work again this morning so more info to come, let me add how grateful I am for all of you taking the time to try and help me. This is why I have loved this forum since the day I started 7 years ago. I know I don't post a lot but I literally have spent almost every day reading and learning from you guys, as well as the time I have spent on AVS, Audiogon, Home theater shack and the other audio forums. I have gotten a grasp of what it takes to get the most out of your collection, I just need to implement that knowledge and try to find some symmetry.
Those of you who add that my room is my biggest weakness are spot on and I know it, but like most of you know, I'm married and this is the queens domain, so changing it any more than I have will be an uphill battle. I know for a fact that you shouldn't have anything between your speakers, the coffee table is my biggest pet peeve, for one the reflection off the tv is killer, not to mention the probable sound interference.
PART ONE, now back to work

zarrdoss

I don't think you have any one thing wrong with your system but rather a combination. I think replacing gear is not the way to go. Its just going to take the advise of this forum, messing around with placement and find what works for you. I had a hard time finding acoustic panels that my wife approved of but finally did and they made a huge difference.
Don't sell everything just yet, try one thing at a time, baby steps.

F1nut

sandworms wrote: »

I have tried what I believe every possible tweak possible in the settings on each component. I still am not getting the detail I know should be in my music, and when I tell you my money feels wasted on sacd's I'm not kidding. I believe one should be able to pick out every subtle nuance in the composition, hear the strings being strummed or plucked, hear a snare drum, hi hat, tom tom, crash symbol. Be able to separate each vocalist, you know, feel the emotion of the piece!!

I went back to the beginning of this thread.....the above tells me that it is NOT, I repeat NOT the room. Forget about the effing room suggestions. You need to start with a dedicated pre amp before anything else otherwise you're just p!ssing in the wind.

sandworms

Here's a good laugh for you guys, my Onkyo must have heard you talking about it so it decided to **** the bed, no sound coming out!! I am still under warranty but I'm out of HT for a few weeks, not to mention A/B ing it with the Oppo. I love all the suggestions as I have entertained the idea of treatments and a dedicated pre many times before. I was mainly concerned that even with a hi res format playing, ie... sacd or some HD tracks, I am literally hearing less detail than I hear with regular cd's or my streaming files. There was a previous statement regarding my taste in speakers and that I didn't prefer the LSi sound. I actually liked them as a whole, but I had the instances where the detail was lost somewhere and I wanted to try a different route than polk. I was listening today from different locations in my room, and thought to put my ear up to the drivers to see exactly what was coming out. The tweeter sounded decent, the bass driver ok at best, but the midrange to me sounded horrible. It was bloated and fat and seemed to suffocate the music. I know it may be due to what it's being fed, but it may just be how this speaker sounds. FYI, that was listening to pandora from my oppo's app's using the aforementioned set up. So basically I've heard
Pre amp
Room treatments
poor cable choice
Oppo isn't the best at detail
Speakers could be weak link
digital source/files
That is essentially my entire system and the room it's in.
I'm screwed, I was hoping to hear all I needed was a slight tweak and bliss would be mine, but deep down I knew I would probably never get the sound I am looking for in this room. It is just not conducive in it's current state. I need to add that there are times that it does sound pretty good in there, listening to Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, or some of the other well known produced artists. But why can't I get a sacd to sound good?

nooshinjohn

Start with your pre. Then look at room correction/treatment, followed source and then speakers.

The pre will result in a massive improvement, I guarantee it.

sandworms

F1nut wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Hate to say it but it is possible that the Sonus Faber may not be to your liking.

That very well might be. I have not heard that model, but based on all the others I have heard they are a bit laid back.

Sandworms, have you tried the RTiA3's in the front?

I'll try that, just need to move some stands up front

sandworms

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

Sandworms- You are getting a lot of great suggestions, but I hear you on the room is the only one you have to work with. That being said, I do see a couple things I would try and then recalibrate the onkyo just to see if it does anything.....
-
1. The coffee table has two drawers on the bottom and could be blocking some sound as well as a glass top. Why not remove it to another room for just a quick test session. Leave an open space between yourself and the speakers.

2. The speakers look to be toed in at least 25 degrees.... maybe you could go back to a little more like a SDA setup with no toe in and see where that puts the sweet spot.

3. The large picture above the love seat.... just take it down for now since it's a big reflective surface.

4. The pictures on the table directly behind the couch could be reflecting energy back toward your listening position..... just lay them flat for the experiment.

5. The beautiful glass curio cabinet in the corner is certainly no bass trap with it being a large curved reflective surface.....throw a heavy blanket over it and put a pillow on top to hold the blanket or some books.

I would then try to rerun the calibration program with the onkyo and see if the values change significantly and then listen and see if you get any improvement. Are you running the dual subs when doing 2 ch listening? IF so then are you using the stereo setting as listening mode with the onkyo? What are the towers crossovers set to? IF not running the subs then are you listening in pure direct? IF so then my onkyo AVR just puts out the signal as received without and of the room correction added to it.

I realize these suggestions will not meet with wife approval. I have several curios filled with antique glass my wife collects. Every time I make a gear purchase I bring her home a piece of glass and she stays off my arse. The picture over the love seat could maybe find another spot in the room or another room. The coffee table could be replaced for a lot less than the leather couches. This is if you hear improvement or to at least let you know what is compromising your sound.

I still think the P5 could be the piece that makes a world of difference to your system. Others such as Nooshingjohn have a little deeper pockets and I'm sure the pass lab pre is awesome and in another league but I don't think it's the answer for a dual purpose system. I believe Music Direct or other retailers have a 30 day in home trial period where you could test it and return if not satisfied.

Sorry for the long rambling post, but you asked for ideas and these are mine, I'll sit back and hope to learn along with you from other inputs and ideas. Best of luck to you.

A lot to consider, I do listen in every mode available on my components to try and get the sound I want. I can't stand pure direct, it is so flat and dull, direct isn't much better. I like how stereo sounds, with the subs in the mix and audyssey keeping the levels, timing in check, I know it sounds contrary to purist 2 channel theory, but it's what my ears like. Like I've said before, this will be a long process and I will keep everyone updated

sandworms

F1nut wrote: »

I wish you guys could hear what I'm hearing, I'm pretty sure you would run from the room screaming expletives.

I'm getting mixed messages. What makes me run from a room are piercing highs, which very well could be related to the room. However, you are talking about a lack of clarity, no soul and a garbled mess, which to me means a flat/dead sound and would not be related to reflective surfaces. So, which is it?

Hmm, I bought the Oppo due to glowing reviews

They raved about the 83 and the 95 too. I found both to be dry/etched with no soul and I did leave the room.

Not piercing highs F1, just the opposite, It is not "bright" issue at all. Looking like I need to test drive a good pre