Subwoofer with 1.2tl

tonyb

SCompRacer wrote: »

Personal preferences don't solve problems. Proper actions solve problems. You get what you accept.

Well, you don't have a problem if your preferences are met, right ? Those who don't use a sub, don't have a problem if their happy, those that do....don't either.

Adding a little "chest bump" as the OP indicated is fine if that's his preference. However something like a psw505 won't cut the mustard on 1.2's Even dual 505's....he'd have to up his game into SVS, HSU, Velo territory. Just my opinion of course. Budget....room size also going to play into all of it. Nuthin' you don't already know though.

nooshinjohn

SCompRacer wrote: »

I get it now, some of you can't see beyond your own prejudice to understand even a larger floor standing speaker than what I have will not give me +-3dB to 25Hz in an 8,000 cubic feet space. I've had Carver Amazings which have more radiating surface than the majority of speakers out there and they couldn't do it. 1.2tl's wont do here. Period. And I have plenty of amp to drive any speaker.

Are you currently running a set of 1.2TL's? That is the speaker we are talking about here and no other. I did not see them listed in your gear. If you do, or have done so in the recent past, cool. If not then any opinion you may have on this subject should be taken somewhat less than a grain of salt.

SCompRacer wrote: »

Some of you should turn in your audio cards as you preach incorrect information, even lies. I'd like to think it's more ignorance. You have no desire to dig deeper and learn anything.

Way over the top and uncalled for... just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean it does not have value, that I am not willing to learn, or that it is a lie. I think you owe some folks an apology.

SCompRacer wrote: »

Regarding sub specs, they are important. Some give the polk 1.2 spec "10Hz to whatever" where the real numbers are +-3dB. Even better +-2 or +-1.5.

NHT gives real specs -3dB from 27Hz - 130Hz, -6dB @ 25Hz, -10dB @ 23Hz. You do get room gain that can make the sub go deeper.

I may be looking for a Subrosa in-wall version, and have wired for one just in case, for use in HT applications, but have no real desire to run one for stereo use.

SCompRacer wrote: »

So get off the fact that there is something wrong with anyone adding a sub to their precious polk SDA's or any other speaker because they might need one in their situation. Do a room sweep and get some truth about what your speakers do in your room instead of your verbal BS.

Never said NOT to do it once again, just said that when the big girls are set up properly and dialed in, it is overkill, but then again, if that what blows your skirt up, by all means enjoy.

SCompRacer wrote: »

Sweet jebus, no wonder this forum has collapsed into what it is.

Again, not necessary... There are many reasons the forum is what it is, from inept roll-outs of new formats like vanilla, to the lack of moderation of obvious trolls and a bunch of other things. The knowledge base that is here is still among the best on the net, if you are willing to listen.

The problem is really what your post exemplified... there is only one way and that is your way. Those that disagree are to be called liars and blamed for what you see as the downfall of the forum.

After all this time here, you should know better by now...

tonyb

Hmmm....I think my reading comprehension is off today. Lets recap on the OP's original post.

Claims to love the SDA's bass output at HIGHER volumes, but the wife wants him to turn it down. One must assume then he's looking for some "chest bump" at LOWER volumes.

If that's the case, he can get away with a smaller faster sub for lower volume listening. Here I was thinking he wanted to add even more to what the 1.2's produced, big difference.

Midsized Rel subs or Velo's may be up your alley then, nice tight musical subs.

nooshinjohn

tonyb wrote: »

Hmmm....I think my reading comprehension is off today. Lets recap on the OP's original post.

Claims to love the SDA's bass output at HIGHER volumes, but the wife wants him to turn it down. One must assume then he's looking for some "chest bump" at LOWER volumes.

If that's the case, he can get away with a smaller faster sub for lower volume listening. Here I was thinking he wanted to add even more to what the 1.2's produced, big difference.

Midsized Rel subs or Velo's may be up your alley then, nice tight musical subs.

I read it right Tony... but it was also determined that there may be some shortcomings in his speakers that need attention before a need for a sub can be determined. The "Leak-down" test shows he is loosing air pressure in the cabinets.

SCompRacer

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Are you currently running a set of 1.2TL's? That is the speaker we are talking about here and no other. I did not see them listed in your gear. If you do, or have done so in the recent past, cool. If not then any opinion you may have on this subject should be taken somewhat less than a grain of salt.

I had modded SRS 2's here. They are rated at 12Hz to 26kHz. 27Hz at +-3dB is all I need to know. You don't get it nor do you attempt to. I've had speakers here capable of much more bass at +-3dB than your 1.2's will ever do.

Way over the top and uncalled for... just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean it does not have value, that I am not willing to learn, or that it is a lie. I think you owe some folks an apology.

I owe nobody an apology. You do with your incorrect absolutes. Fact, there are speakers that will play lower than your 1.2tl's. Fact, a well made sub will have no problem keeping up with the bass of ANY floor stander. Fact, once you run out of adjustments on the sub you can add DSP's to further null hot frquencies. Fact, subs can have a place in a two channel system.

I may be looking for a Subrosa in-wall version, and have wired for one just in case, for use in HT applications, but have no real desire to run one for stereo use.

You may not but others might. Quit applying your incorrect opinion to other peoples situations and positive solutions. It is more about space, not the speaker. My speakers do 25Hz +-1.5. Why would I add yours with inflated claims of 10Hz?

Never said NOT to do it once again, just said that when the big girls are set up properly and dialed in, it is overkill, but then again, if that what blows your skirt up, by all means enjoy.

It's applying a solution to a space issue. Try and wrap your head around that.

Again, not necessary... There are many reasons the forum is what it is, from inept roll-outs of new formats like vanilla, to the lack of moderation of obvious trolls and a bunch of other things. The knowledge base that is here is still among the best on the net, if you are willing to listen.

Again, necessary. You don't like the truth or an opinion different than yours. I don't want to belong to any club like that.

The problem is really what your post exemplified... there is only one way and that is your way. Those that disagree are to be called liars and blamed for what you see as the downfall of the forum.

After all this time here, you should know better by now...

Again, your inability to see beyond your LACK of experience and defending an incorrect opinion despite presented with facts that support mine. You ought to know better John. I invested plenty of time and experience in the hobby. Waiting for you to do the same.

nooshinjohn

I have been around this hobby a very long time. Perhaps we should first wait until the op comes back and lets us know how the corrections made to his speakers work out. They failed the leak-down test, remember?

My 10htz figure is not an imaginary one. It comes from reviews and measurements done by Polk and the reviewers themselves.

8000cf is a lot of air to move, and in your space you do need some help. I have 2700cf to move, so my needs will be drastically different than yours. The OP never updated us with the cf of his room or the layout. Without this bit of information, we can go back and forth until snow is ten feet deep in h ell and still be no closer to a good answer.

Different situations will produce different results... agreed?

SCompRacer

Agreed.

I have nothing but respect for SDA's. I've owned many but they just didn't do it for me. Many of my friends have them and I enjoy listening to them. Jay, his studios 2B's have full mods down to Larry's rings. Matter of fact he told me he tuned them up with the rings before I visited a couple weeks ago. Carl's 2.3's, full mods. Brocks modded 1C's which belonged to my dear departed friend Norm. And Ed Savinon who has one or more of every SDA made.

tonyb

nooshinjohn wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Hmmm....I think my reading comprehension is off today. Lets recap on the OP's original post.

Claims to love the SDA's bass output at HIGHER volumes, but the wife wants him to turn it down. One must assume then he's looking for some "chest bump" at LOWER volumes.

If that's the case, he can get away with a smaller faster sub for lower volume listening. Here I was thinking he wanted to add even more to what the 1.2's produced, big difference.

Midsized Rel subs or Velo's may be up your alley then, nice tight musical subs.

I read it right Tony... but it was also determined that there may be some shortcomings in his speakers that need attention before a need for a sub can be determined. The "Leak-down" test shows he is loosing air pressure in the cabinets.

Yeah, got that too and is probably the first avenue to go down. Good advice there.

nooshinjohn

...

tonyb

Geez John....do we need to keep pulling each others tail.... measure d I c k s too as to who's speaker produces the lowest bass response ?

C'mon guys, we're better than this.

halo71

ooklaa wrote: »

Gentlemen we keep on talking about frequenices and 3db losses. The one thing that has not been mentioned is at what distance? 10 hertz is not realistic at all period. You would need a tremoendous amount of power to produce it, probably the crossover will blow before you get to anything below 20 first. I am from the pro world this is how we calculate. Does it play 10 herts yes, but at a foot from the speaker. I highly doubt your producing any db at 10 hertz at your sitting distance, the transmission loss is to great. A subwoofer of true db output can produce these lower frequencies much easier but few makers have subs to play 10hertz, its not realistic and cost way too much money. Get a bass shaker or make your ownif you want feeling over DB.

Have you heard a really well built sub anywhere other than an arena or live concert? I think you need to press the clear button on the calculator and start over. Perhaps listen to some quality subs in a home environment.

TennMan

What are you guys using as a source (music, movies or whatever) that requires a speaker to be capable of reproducing frequencies below 27 Hz on a regular basis? A live recording of battleship gunfire?

SCompRacer

TennMan wrote: »

What are you guys using as a source (music, movies or whatever) that requires a speaker to be capable of reproducing frequencies below 27 Hz on a regular basis? A live recording of battleship gunfire?

LOL

I’m just looking to boost the 25-35 range of my full range speakers that don't full range due to a large, open area with high ceilings. I listen to dubstep & pipe organ (not all the time), piano, love the harp chicks, a closely miked bass fiddle, etc. If the 25-35Hz range is 10dB under the higher frequencies, you get just a hint, not the full effect. To me, not hearing all of what was recorded is like watching a movie on TV where they cut out parts to fit in a time line instead of the full uncut version.

Thus the suggestion, figure out what you listen to. Consult a music chart. Listen and run a sweep to see where you might be low or high in the frequencies with that type music. Adjust accordingly. Placement, add a pair of good quality subs, adjust, placement, sweep, etc. I don't believe you can get a ruler flat response in a room that wasn't designed for audio, but the closer you get, the better the sound.

You can say why bother, it sounds good enough, but in the end you get what you accept.

EndersShadow

Wheres the Skrillex scale @SCompRacer‌? Or the Nikki & the Dove one?

dpowell

Really guys, this started off as a civilized thread with helpful advice being provided to the OP. Seems one person in particular has decided to get his nose bent out of joint because there is a difference of opinion about whether subs are needed or not. I wouldn't say this forum has 'degraded' because of a difference of opinions but rather because this seems to be how threads end up greeting potentially long-term new members.

dpowell

VCoak wrote: »

dpowell I'll pm my cell. I work monday tuesday and wednesday this week. I'll be off for the next 15 days after that.

I'll give you a call this week and see if we can set something up.

SCompRacer

You don't want me to get my nose out of joint don't say stupid, untrue stuff in a public forum. An opinion would be fine, but there were absolutes spoken. Put me on ignore, I don't really care. Bad rap me in PM's, I don't care. Deal with the truth, not the effects of it.

Dan, that could go off the scale...lol

F1nut

Damn Rich, who p!ssed in your Wheaties this morning.....LOL

SCompRacer

Hey Jesse. LOL I'm kind of direct lately.

nooshinjohn

SCompRacer wrote: »

Hey Jesse. LOL I'm kind of direct lately.

LOL!


I got no beef with you Russ. I respect you and your opinion and contributions. My experiences and yours are simply on two different paths. If I had 8000CF of air to move, I might very well have come to the same conclusions as you have for your situation. When I first formed my opinion on the need for a sub with my TL's, I was using them unmodded with a single Energy Sub-12, and did not care for them together for music. Obviously, the Energy was not a music sub, but good enough for me to at least dabble in the concept.

I think until Vcoak tells us what the outcome of his resealing the cabinets was and the amount of air he is trying to move is, we are both somewhat grasping at straws.

Bottom line is this is still a hobby of many opinions, some based on numbers, and some based upon personal preferences, budgets and ears, and as I said, I will be looking for a Subrosa for my room when it is all done for HT use. I will give it a spin for two channel, as I have heard it with music at Bob's place when my amps were getting their finishing touches., and it was impressive backing up the line-source prototypes he was tweaking at the time. I promise to let you know what I think then.

Peace & respect...


John

F1nut

Ya'll hug now and none adat g a y Gordon a$$ grabbin', ya hear!?!

SCompRacer

Heck, we ain't talked about bass cancellation issues yet. Found in the books Why Don't My Full Range Speakers Play Full Range In My Room, and the sequel, How Can I Get My Bass To Play Where I Sit...lol

Once upon a time I attended a speaker shoot out. Speakers I know had better bass than the first pair did not in this small room covered from floor to ceiling with Owens Corning 702. The wonderful articulate bass was in the hallway and dining room. I wanted to know how that can happen.

So it isn't just about floor standing speakers with large radiating space and amps, it's about the space.

Peace and respect. My best, Rich.

tonyb

Very true Rich, the space is just as, if not more important. Hard to convey that message though because most find themselves trying to fudge it all in, dealing with WAF issues, and trying to always get the biggest/badest subwoofer/speaker combo they can. Stick it all in a medium sized room packed with furniture and wonder why their bass sounds muddy or boomy.

I hear ya man, maybe we should have a sticky in the subwoofer section on bass response and how to get it, solve issues, setting up, room issues. Like you said previously, we get what we accept, I like that saying. Unfortunately, most are limited in rooms and what they can alter. I think having sticky's is a good way to keep the same questions from repeating themselves and would serve as a good basis of info for some.

SCompRacer

I hear you Tony. I have WAF issues as well. If I want bass in spades, placing the speakers on the south wall a few feet out has them corner loaded. It comes with its own set of issues, like you can't put gear between the speakers on the wall unless you want them vibrated to death, especially a turntable.

The reason for the west wall setup is so the wife can look out the winder at the birdies on the snow fountain cherry tree and see them feeding by the bird feeder she fills daily with seed. Heck, we even get hawks sitting on the little tree. Sometimes it's disgusting as he hawk is de-feathering a catch, but hey, that's part of nature.

VCoak

Hope everyone is doing alright and sure didn't mean to cause anyone to lose friendships. Work was busy so I had not a chance to reply on the room size.

Room is 22' x 30' with tile flooring. Walls are typical stucco. Ceiling is split at 8 and 10 feet. Speakers are separated at 7 to eight feet and 18 inches from the wall.

Have not had time to remove the mortite and add the armacell. But just recieved Doug's Alpha bi-wire speaker cables. Length of them is 6 feet

VCoak

Headed down stairs to adjust them now.

nooshinjohn

DSkip wrote: »

I believe 18" is too far into the room. From what I remember, the general rule is about 6" from the back wall.

^^^ This...They should also be on the long wall if possible. You basically have an echo chamber on your hands. Wall treatments and throw rugs everywhere you can get them are in order for sure. The room is doing you no favors right now, and I suspect most would agree that controlling the room should come before even thinking about a sub.

If you have 8 foot ceilings, you have over 4300 cubic feet to control, and I suspect Russ may be right, and a very fast, articulate sub should be considered if after the room is done, you find that you need more down low. My suggestion would be to look for a Subrosa

My space is about half of yours and a quarter the size of Russ', and in such a comparably small area, my needs are different than yours.

Amazing how clear the picture can be when you have all the information...LOL

nooshinjohn

Any updates V?

VCoak

Sorry for the delay spent the day in Carlsbad

First moved them back at four inch increments. Sweet spot for my taste is just under 8 inches from the wall. Closer made it sound a bit soupy in bass. As if their was a second "bass" sound. Cleaned some contacts from the goods Doug sent with the new cables. Removed the original jumpers that came with the speakers and installed Doug's bi-wire two days ago. As of this writing the S/Q and bass is improving.

Super Bowl Sunday I'm going to exercise the old girls loudly.

Have yet to remove the mortite but did pick up the Armacel.

VCoak

FYI, added comments to Doug's wires in the Basic forum