Subwoofer with 1.2tl

SCompRacer

Emlyn wrote: »

The overall frequency response on the 1.2TLs was 10 Hz to 26 KHz. However, the -3db limits were 27 Hz to 20 kHz. I do believe the -3db limits are improved on the low end somewhat by physical modifications. I have noticed the bass response is quicker and tighter on my SDAs after being upgraded, but have no way of knowing to what extent.

3dB limits are more realistic. 1.5dB even better. Many subs are sold declaring low dB but not at F3. Here is the thing. If you only listen to two channel music only, what do you listen to the majority of the time? Organ? Dubstep? I like me a little organ and dubstep, but not all the time. Therefore my subs don't come into play all of the time. But when they do, I hear and feel the 25-35Hz range.

Figure out what you listen to. Consult an instrument frequency chart. Do a room sweep and see what your speakers are capable of. THEN apply proper frequency supplementation. Quality over quantity would be recommended.

A ported SVS subwoofer takes up a lot of floor space.

SVS claims I need ported subs for my large area. (And I don't want subs that large in my two channel system). The quote was "ported subs rule below 30Hz." Rythmik servo subs says two 15" sealed. Salk says his 12" Rythmik subs (larger and better braced cabinets) would work but would be taxed if low frequencies were played all the time. My two compact 12" NHT's properly placed integrate very well, but their F3 is like 27Hz. Sounds like a low number for a sub but I like when subs are listed honestly with 3dB numbers and they have bass qualities that don't undermine my speakers.

drumminman

I use a 15" velodyne sub with my modded 2.3TL's. I had no trouble dialing it in. It provides a small amount of reinforcement of the lowest frequencies. Also helps to provide a little more tonal information.

SCompRacer

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Just a quick look at Crutchfield subwoofer specs shows that they are not capable of delivering low frequencies that the 1.2TL's are capable of.

Stock TL's are rated down to 10hz up to 26,000 hz as I remember, before mods. These subs are nowhere close to that.

Properly set up and dialed in, a sub should not even be a thought here.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-dVolK076L3K/shopsearch/home_subwoofer.html?awcp=1t1&awcr=28884248483&awdv=c&awkw=home stereo subwoofer&awmt=p&awnw=g

Why not compare it to a better sub. One that does 14Hz at -2dB? I'll bet the Rythmik F15 servo sub would play at 10Hz, but not at -2dB.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15_specs.html

The other thing Emlyn touched on is implementation. Due to room gain you may need to reduce specific frequencies, like with a mini DSP. I've used a Behringer DEQ2496 to null out specific low bass frequencies too. You can play with sub placement as well. A little this way, sweep, a little that way, sweep, etc. How about acoustic treatments? Proper bass trapping will help.

The SVS SB13-Ultra has the built in ability to reduce specific frequencies up to -12dB. Again, what do you want to do and are you wiling to go through all the work and expense needed to attain proper implementation.

http://www.minidsp.com/

Here is a recent lower level listening room sweep I performed the other day when Chris delivered the Richard Gray power conditioner. This is with subs, at ear level at listening position.



This is what I am dealing with. Gear not to exact scale and exact position, but close enough to see the setup.

dpowell

V,
Come down the hill and have a listen with and without subs. With my 2.3TL's, I cannot configure the room to have them placed in the most optimal way. With all the mods completed, they are still capable of excellent bass output. That said, the SVS PB13 Ultras have added a whole new dimension. Come do an A/B test for yourself before sinking money into a sub. Like Nooshin said, with the 1.2TL's you will need a powerful sub that can keep up with them.

EndersShadow

@SCompRacer‌ you ever toyed with a house curve? Just curious as I will be likely implementing in with my sub soon.

VCoak

dpowell I'll pm my cell. I work monday tuesday and wednesday this week. I'll be off for the next 15 days after that.

VCoak

BTW, As always the info is such great help. Thank you ! Through the many moves can not find the old spikes or the wall braces. Most likely won't use the use the wall braces. The floor spikes might be deployed after the armacell,

nooshinjohn

I am listening right now to mine at a level that would embarrass the boys from AC/DC, and there is no need at all for a sub. The pictures on the walls are literally rattling as we speak.

The problem for me in adding a sub to these is the bass is so fast, tight and articulate that the addition of a sub tends to blur and smear that detail. I have heard Doug's setup (it was mine after all) and it is very good, but for two channel music, the sub adds a veil to the lower frequencies.

You are welcome to come on up and hear what mine can do, and I would be more than happy to help you get there.

dpowell

He he you heard the 2.3s with original unmodded xo's and sl3000's for goodness sake!

I look forward to hearing your hot rodded 1.2TLs someday John. Just make sure you have a dreadnaught by the time I get up there!

If the 1.2s are properly setup I agree with John that a sub would likely be a hindrance more than a help in 2 channel. However in multichannel situations the subs add an element that just won't be there from the l/r mains. I watched a movie tonight and goodness if dual subs didn't add a depth to the overall sound field that even the single svs pb12 plus/2 i had before couldn't do.

VCoak

I would truly appreciate that. I agree at high volumes the bass is there but was looking for that same bass at "talking" volumes. Perhaps it is my tinnitus is getting worse, lol.

Cranked out The Who this morning. A live recording either from '69 or 70. They were playing at the London Coliseum. Great sound via digital source.

dpowell

VCoak wrote: »

I agree at high volumes the bass is there but was looking for that same bass at "talking" volumes.

I feel the same way. Subs effortlessly add the depth without me having to go deaf to feel the punch.

nooshinjohn

I can't wait to hear my tubes and the Pass X1 on the 2.3TL's...

F1nut

Through the many moves can not find the old spikes

No loss, the stock spikes were junk. You want big, heavy duty ones of the better quality.

As for subs...I'm pretty sure that anyone who has heard my rig can tell you I don't need one. Plenty of low end at lower volumes and thunderous bass at higher levels.

motorstereo

Too bad you're not local as I'd be glad to audition my 1.2tl's with and without the 18'' sub. I run both the sub and sda's full range from the pre and have the sub crossed fairly low at about 50hz. I have dual front mounted switches on my preamp so an a+b comparison is instant and made it easy to dial the sub in. I have the sub set so it adds just a bit more on the bottom end. I don't want it to over power the 1.2s bass (which it could easily do). There's very few full range speakers out there that won't benefit from the addition of an equally good and well integrated sub and the big polks are no exception.

SCompRacer

It's not about the speaker, it's about the space. If you had a sub that smeared the low bass, you were too cheap with a sub and/or you don't understand how to implement one. They do make subs that will keep up with any speaker low bass output.

Nothing but BS here about the negative aspects of adding a sub to a two channel setup. Some spaces need subs. Some setups need subs, like the ones where both speakers are not in/near room corners. All these untrue absolutes without considering all issues point to enthusiasts or self proclaimed audiophiles that need more education. If your room/setup doesn't need a sub, more power to you.

Dan, I read an article about whole house curves but don't know all the specifics. Basically I listen than sweep, make changes, listen, sweep again.. I'm dealing with a main level curve.

nooshinjohn

A sub with the 1.2TL's may sound cool, and yes, you will get more bass, but no matter how good that bass is, it will still be a exaggeration of the bass the SDA already produces in massive amounts.

tonyb

All good points gents. I might agree with John though. If you have big full rangers with some good quality juice behind them, a sub isn't going to add much. Unless of course you like your home audio to sound like that car audio coming down the street at 2 A.M. Just my opinion of course, yours may vary.

Speed as Skip suggests would be another issue to overcome so the sub doesn't draw too much attention to itself. Personal preferences aside, if your going to add a sub to floorstanders, dual subs is the way to go. I much prefer dual subs in most any setup anyway for that front stage if one must use subs....even with bookies.

What works for my ears though doesn't mean it should for yours, so experiment away.

motorstereo

nooshinjohn wrote: »

A sub with the 1.2TL's may sound cool, and yes, you will get more bass, but no matter how good that bass is, it will still be a exaggeration of the bass the SDA already produces in massive amounts.

That same line of thinking applies to us not needing the A1 dreadnaught, Larry's rings, spikes, braces, and a host of other tweaks and mods that help bring our beloved sda's further up the ladder.
It's a shame you're not local to me as we could end the speculation with a listening session with and without a properly dialed in sub. Sda's are great speakers no doubt but they're not the last or only word in quality bass reproduction; lol

Mystery

motorstereo wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

A sub with the 1.2TL's may sound cool, and yes, you will get more bass, but no matter how good that bass is, it will still be a exaggeration of the bass the SDA already produces in massive amounts.

That same line of thinking applies to us not needing the A1 dreadnaught, Larry's rings, spikes, braces, and a host of other tweaks and mods that help bring our beloved sda's further up the ladder.
It's a shame you're not local to me as we could end the speculation with a listening session with and without a properly dialed in sub. Sda's are great speakers no doubt but they're not the last or only word in quality bass reproduction; lol

It'll be exaggeration only if it's not correctly dialed in.
At the same level, the sub should blend in nicely.
A lot of subwoofer owners turn the sub louder than needed so they hear that extra thump that in turn will exaggerate what's in the source.

In my experience, with nice tower speakers that have at least 8" woofers, adding an economic 8" or 10" sub just doesn't do anything for music.
I had multiple subs in a speaker selector and some smaller subs didn't add anything until bumped up that in turn was just too boomy and sounded unnatural.

Never had SVS or HSU or Velodyne HGS/DD subs but going from their reputations, I think their 12" and up should be up to the job with SDA's.
BTW, Velodyne HGS/DD 18" costs over $3k new so that's little too much change.

Schurkey

So...just to muddy the water some:

The big SDA was reported in the media to have the lowest bass distortion measured to that time. What the reviewer didn't count as distortion is that all ported cabinets--including passive-radiator designs--go out-of-phase as the bass goes below the tuning frequency. Non-ported cabinets don't have the phase distortion.

So how do we feel about a subwoofer in a non-ported cabinet staying in phase while the PR goes further and further out-of-phase as the frequency drops?

Does rolling-off the bass to the SDA reduce or eliminate this issue?

FTGV

I'm with Rich,It's not always about extending the bass that last few hz. Adding a subwoofer or even better a pair,or more can aid significantly in smoothing out the frequency response in the rooms modal region.(below approx 200 hz room size dependant.)Typically speakers will be set up for best imaging,midrange clarity etc.That placement usually conflicts with the best position for the smoothest bass response.It is a fact that when properly done having multiple sources of bass strategically placed about the room can improve the quality of the bottom octaves.It will ofcourse take some time and effort to find the optimum placement and settings for the sub(s) gain ,phase ,low pass filter settings.

motorstereo

Never had SVS or HSU or Velodyne HGS/DD subs but going from their reputations, I think their 12" and up should be up to the job with SDA's.
BTW, Velodyne HGS/DD 18" costs over $3k new so that's little too much change.[/quote]

Think of what you're dealing with here; a 190lb speaker that already has great bass extension. If you can't get something of equal or better specs then it won't be an upgrade. Case in point; I had an m+k dual 12'' driver push pull sub that added nothing to my 2.3s and it actually took away from my 1.2tl's which go a little deeper. I'm betting that's why there's some resistance to the sub idea with the 1.2tl's. The naysayers either can't find something that has better bass response than the big polks or they don't want to spend the money or both. Can't blame them either as I've been in both of those camps myself.

dpowell

I think the argument really boils down to how the speakers are purposed. I originally had the 2.3TL's set up in a dedicated 2 channel situation for music only. I didn't feel the need for a sub. Now that the 2.3TL's are serving a dual purpose, music and home theater, I strongly feel a sub is required (and like others have said, two are way better than one).

One thing this thread has challenged me to do though is to set the Pioneer receiver sub setting to NO and have a listen to some LFE intensive movies without the subs and let the 2.3's speak for themselves.

nooshinjohn

I can agree that you might want some rumble to go with a soundtrack, and that is something the SRS 1.2tl dos not do well at all, so for movie mixes, I can see the need but not for two channel stereo.

tonyb

I think too some get too caught up in specs when it comes to subs. Manufacturers specs....when it comes to subs....and speakers, are not usually what you'll experience in your room in your house.

Part of the reason those who have big full range speakers is for the big dynamic impact that you feel as well as hear. The presence of having the whole orchestra in front of you. Big radiating surfaces as we like to tout.

For smaller floorstanders, dual subs can certainly increase that dynamic sound some come to expect with floorstanders. Keeping in mind that all full rangers or subs for that matter are not created equal.

However, for me anyway, dual subs of quality can become costly. I'd much rather take that money and put it into upgrading the speaker as a whole and not just one part of the musical spectrum.

SCompRacer

I get it now, some of you can't see beyond your own prejudice to understand even a larger floor standing speaker than what I have will not give me +-3dB to 25Hz in an 8,000 cubic feet space. I've had Carver Amazings which have more radiating surface than the majority of speakers out there and they couldn't do it. 1.2tl's wont do here. Period. And I have plenty of amp to drive any speaker.

Some of you should turn in your audio cards as you preach incorrect information, even lies. I'd like to think it's more ignorance. You have no desire to dig deeper and learn anything.

Regarding sub specs, they are important. Some give the polk 1.2 spec "10Hz to whatever" where the real numbers are +-3dB. Even better +-2 or +-1.5.

NHT gives real specs -3dB from 27Hz - 130Hz, -6dB @ 25Hz, -10dB @ 23Hz. You do get room gain that can make the sub go deeper.

So get off the fact that there is something wrong with anyone adding a sub to their precious polk SDA's or any other speaker because they might need one in their situation. Do a room sweep and get some truth about what your speakers do in your room instead of your verbal BS. Sweet jebus, no wonder this forum has collapsed into what it is.

tonyb

It's a matter of personal preferences Rich, nothing less, nothing more. I think we all know by now nothing in audio is written in stone.

SCompRacer

Personal preferences don't solve problems. Proper actions solve problems. You get what you accept.

Mystery

motorstereo wrote: »

Think of what you're dealing with here; a 190lb speaker that already has great bass extension. If you can't get something of equal or better specs then it won't be an upgrade. Case in point; I had an m+k dual 12'' driver push pull sub that added nothing to my 2.3s and it actually took away from my 1.2tl's which go a little deeper. I'm betting that's why there's some resistance to the sub idea with the 1.2tl's. The naysayers either can't find something that has better bass response than the big polks or they don't want to spend the money or both. Can't blame them either as I've been in both of those camps myself.

Yes, that's why I mentioned economic 8" and 10" sub won't be up to the job with bigger towers.
1.2TL's are big and heavy but if the -3db limits are 27 Hz to 20 kHz, decent sub will go below that easily.
SVS PB12plus goes down to 20hz at -3db.
SVS PB13 ultra goes down to 16hz at -3db.

Another thing is a sub can be placed away from the speakers to balance the bass.

ooklaa

Gentlemen we keep on talking about frequenices and 3db losses. The one thing that has not been mentioned is at what distance? 10 hertz is not realistic at all period. You would need a tremoendous amount of power to produce it, probably the crossover will blow before you get to anything below 20 first. I am from the pro world this is how we calculate. Does it play 10 herts yes, but at a foot from the speaker. I highly doubt your producing any db at 10 hertz at your sitting distance, the transmission loss is to great. A subwoofer of true db output can produce these lower frequencies much easier but few makers have subs to play 10hertz, its not realistic and cost way too much money. Get a bass shaker or make your ownif you want feeling over DB.