Energy RC-10 vs Pioneer SP-BS22-LR

halo

Hey all,

I know that the Pioneers are very popular and that there are a lot of favorable reviews on them. I wasn't able to find out much about the Energy RC-10, and I'd like to know how they stack up against the Pioneer bookshelves.

Thanks!

Conradicles

I had the SP-BS22-LR for a while in my old garage rig. They are great speakers. Those energy are highly regarded as well. If the price was the same, I would try the RC-10.

rooftop59

I know that pioneers are highly regarded for ULTRA budget speakers, and I honestly have not heard them. But the energy's are in a whole different league. I preferred them overall to the LSi7s, which I really like. The energy's are more forward sounding (the name fits) and more coherent overall (they don't have any obvious peaks like the mid bass bump in the 7s). Just a great little bookie and easy to drive. If the price is the same I can't imagine a possible world in which the pioneers pose a real threat...

cnh

I own both although I've NEVER done an A/B comparison with them. I will say that the Energy speakers have a LOT more bottom end. In fact, I'd say they have more bottom end than a speaker should have that is that small. You can also bi-amp. And they are generally a "warmer" speaker than the Pioneers which are more neutral in comparison. I'd say the the RC-10s are a "poor man's Totem Rainmaker" although they don't quite have the resolution of that speaker, they do have a semblance of their sound. But not everyone will agree with that. Certainly the size profile and driver complement is somewhat similar?

And there is probably more "detail" in the top end of the RC-10s. And I'd say they image very well; so do the Pioneers. But I give the edge here to the RC-10s; a BIGGER sounding speaker. The Pios may or may not have a more distinct mid-range. I'd need to A/B that.

But remember, those Energys MSRP-ed over $500 a pair. And then got slashed to $299 as they were discontinued and even dropped below $249 (anything below that is a steal). I doubt you could find a NEW pair at this point?

They also need more room to breathe. You have to keep them from being too close to back walls because there is so much air being pumped out of their ports.

But again, you'd need to hear them. I will "always" have a bias toward "warmer" sounding speakers, almost without exception. Your ears may NOT agree?

cnh

halo

I just ordered myself a pair of the Energy RC-10 from Fry's, which are on SALE for $229.

I am looking to replace the Polk R15 I have in my living room.

I'm not looking for a surround set up, and I don't want to run a sub.

Personally, I dislike the idea of running a "cheap" used (or new) sub with a good set of bookshelf speakers. A "cheap" sub will not, IMHO, enhance my listening experience. To have to buy a "decent" sub + the co$t of the bookshelves, puts me into a different category of speaker, altogether.

If the Energy RC-10 are that good, they will replace the RTi6 in my Bedroom, and I will move the RTi6 to the Living Room, and add the matching center channel to the RTi6 at a later date.

That said, we're not at all unhappy with the sound of the RTi6 in the bedroom.

It's always fun to do these little shootouts / comparisons!

Here is a LINK to the SALE price at FRYS for the Energy RC-10.

Thank you for your input folks!!!

halo

@cnh - I would be interested to hear your thoughts on an A/B comparison between the two different pairs of speakers. The Pioneers are said to best speakers costing much more money. FWIW, I don't always equate dollar amount with sound quality.

F1nut

On a whim I bought a pair of the Pioneers, pretty impressive for a hundred. They have alot more bottom end than one would expect from a 4" driver. Same 50Hz rating as the Energy and they had to use a 6.5" to get that making the Pioneer even more impressive. I haven't heard the Energy, but from experience with other metal dome tweeters, warm is not a description I would use. The Pioneer with its fabric dome leans on the warm side to my ears, but I've only used them with the vintage Pioneer SA-500/TX-500 gear I restored, which leans to the warm side. Of course, using MIT cables always make things sound better.

I like the little Pioneers so much I'm in the process of doing the Dennis Murphy mods, but taking it a bit further.

halo

I have no doubt that the Pioneer speakers sound good, as evidenced by the sheer volume of favorable reviews from professionals and very well respected forum members here as well.

The thing that holds me back, in regards to the Pioneers, is their limitations in the reproduction of the bottom end.

I went with the RTi6 over the RTi4 & the Pioneer because of their ability of the RTi6 to dig deeper than the other speakers with the limitations of the smaller drivers. After spending just a week with the RTi6, I'm very happy with them.

As good as the RTi6 sound in the bedroom, I'm actually tempted to get another pair in a the Cherry finish for the living room with the matching center channel, especially at their current price point @polk audio direct.

I know that a lot of people are very impressed by the bass that the Pioneer speakers deliver, given the 4" driver.

I followed the thread on them over at AVS and it piqued my interest, especially since one of the initial reviewers referenced their Sanders Sound System hybrid electrostats. I owned a pair of the earlier incarnation in the InnerSound Eros MK II hybrid electrostats; Definitely one of my favorite speakers of all time. I just cannot wrap my head around the small driver delivering DEEP bass response.

Jesse, yes - the Pioneers have a rated Frequency Range of 55 Hz-20 kHz, a Nominal Impedance of 6 Ohms, and a Sensitivity (2.83 V) of 85 dB. However, the Energy's have a rated Frequency Range of 50Hz-23kHz +/- 3dB (Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) of 43Hz), Impedance of 8 ohms, and a Sensitivity of 91dB. So, on paper, the Energy speakers appear to dig deeper and they also appear to be easier to drive.

I respect your thoughts on the Pioneer speakers guys, I really do. Jesse, you were one of the people who was there when I started down the rabbit hole 10 years ago and your advice throughout that journey has been very much appreciated.

I might just have to a/b the two different speakers myself, but I found it hard to pass on the Energy speakers given their current price point.

I missed the sale prices on the Pioneers and I cannot bring myself to pay full retail for them. lol. As I said before, I do not like the idea of having to add a sub to get good sound out of a pair of speakers. Being an apartment dweller these days, a sub is simply not in the list of available options for me. That said, purchasing a sub would also increase the overall cost of the speakers and, IMO, that takes away from their super budget friendly characteristic. Plus, I haven't had much luck blending a sub and a pair of bookshelves / satellites for a seamless effect. @DSkip - in my other thread, you suggested adding a "cheap" sub to the Pioneers. I don't think that would be productive as a "cheap" sub will likely sound "cheap," negating the signature sound of the Pioneers, no? I've had cheap subs and I've had not-so-cheap subs. I always preferred the sound from the speaker itself, and not sound generated from two different devices. Of course, YMMV.

Thanks again for all of the feedback! I do appreciate it

Conradicles

Don't overthink your situation. Ride to best buy and buy the pioneers after you get the energy speakers. A/B both speakers. Then take them back to best buy and get your money back. Then you will have your answer and will have spent no money out of pocket.

F1nut

Jesse, yes - the Pioneers have a rated Frequency Range of 55 Hz-20 kHz, a Nominal Impedance of 6 Ohms, and a Sensitivity (2.83 V) of 85 dB. However, the Energy's have a rated Frequency Range of 50Hz-23kHz +/- 3dB (Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) of 43Hz), Impedance of 8 ohms, and a Sensitivity of 91dB. So, on paper, the Energy speakers appear to dig deeper and they also appear to be easier to drive.

Thanks for the clarification of the specs, I thought the Pioneer's hit 50Hz. Agreed, the Energy's would definitely be easier to drive. That said, I'm driving the Pioneer's with 10wpc, which in the guest bedroom is plenty loud enough. Would I use them as my main speakers? Never in a million years.

I just cannot wrap my head around the small driver delivering DEEP bass response.

Rightfully so. Neither speaker will give you that.

I might just have to a/b the two different speakers myself, but I found it hard to pass on the Energy speakers given their current price point.

I wouldn't bother comparing them. I'm not because I think they are too close in performance.

halo

@DSkip - Personally, I wouldn't think that any old sub would be very musical. That's just my $0.02.

Jessie - Well, there is a difference in the price between the two, so perhaps a comparison is in order so that the possible difference can be applied elsewhere?

Thanks again!

cnh

Conradicles wrote: »

Don't overthink your situation. Ride to best buy and buy the pioneers after you get the energy speakers. A/B both speakers. Then take them back to best buy and get your money back. Then you will have your answer and will have spent no money out of pocket.

I think Conradicles has the right idea. You should consider getting a pair of the Pios and doing an A/B.

I will say that I consider the Energys a step above the Rti-6s. I do not think the 6s can hang with the Energys. And the Energys have a 5.5" woofer not a 6.5". So they are roughly the size of the Rti-4s or A1s.

I also understand Jesse's reservation on metal domes. But as metal domes go these are pretty tame and laid back--I suspect there is something going on in the crossover?

The bass on the RC-10s is certainly not the equivalent of a tower or an 8" sub. But they do hit a LEGITIMATE 50Hz whereas I feel the Pioneers really seem to drop off after about 60Hz or so. And that is a difference that can be "heard". You will notice it.

As with most all bookies, real bass much below 50 Hz is tough to reproduce.

Again, this is pretty much a case of needing to "hear" and decide.

I would add that I'm normally NOT a fan of metal domes myself which is one reason I'm a little surprised by these. There are some, though, who feel that the extra bass is not that "tight" perhaps because they may be a little sloppy at the 50 cutoff?

Oh well! Look forward to "your" take on them!

cnh

F1nut

And the Energys have a 5.5" woofer not a 6.5".

D a m n, I got that wrong too.....LOL

Mystery

If going for new ones, they are good value but for a hundy, there are so many used speakers from all different brands that smash these easily.

halo

@Mystery - Can you provide some specific examples?

halo

cnh wrote: »

I will say that I consider the Energys a step above the Rti-6s. I do not think the 6s can hang with the Energys. And the Energys have a 5.5" woofer not a 6.5". So they are roughly the size of the Rti-4s or A1s.

That's interesting, on paper, the specs appear to be almost identical between the rc-10 & the RTi6.

cnh wrote: »

The bass on the RC-10s is certainly not the equivalent of a tower or an 8" sub. But they do hit a LEGITIMATE 50Hz whereas I feel the Pioneers really seem to drop off after about 60Hz or so. And that is a difference that can be "heard". You will notice it.

As with most all bookies, real bass much below 50 Hz is tough to reproduce.

I'm happy with the bass response of the RTi6, so the RC-10 shouldn't be much of a disappointment in that regard.

I completely understand that most bookshelf speakers do not dig very low, not as low as most towers. Ah, if only I had purchased the VR1s a few years ago...d'oh!

cnh wrote: »

well! Look forward to "your" take on them!

Well, I'll be comparing them to the RTi6 first, since that's what I have on hand. If the Pioneers don't go as low as the RTi6 or the RC-10, I pretty much have no reason to audition them, other than for the sake of saying that I tried them and gave them a fair shot.

F1nut

I completely understand that most bookshelf speakers do not dig very low, not as low as most towers.

Looking for monitors with impressive bass? If you ever run across a pair of NHT SB3's grab them.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/721/index.html

I've modded the crossovers on mine, which of course made them even better. Mated with the right gear and cables you'll get bass growl close to a pair of big floor standers.

rooftop59

F1nut wrote: »

Looking for monitors with impressive bass? If you ever run across a pair of NHT SB3's grab them.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/721/index.html

I've modded the crossovers on mine, which of course made them even better. Mated with the right gear and cables you'll get bass growl close to a pair of big floor standers.

I agree: I grabbed a used pair, one a with some cosmetic flaws, for really cheap and have it mated with a parasound HCA 1000 and the bass is unreal for a SEALED bookie that small. I can't imagine how F1s sound with his mods and equipment

But I agree with CNH that the RC10s are are clear step above the rti6s. The bass is tighter, the highs more extended and articulate, and the the sound is more coherent overall. The 5 khz just gets grating after awhile, and messes with the entire presentation for me. That's why I no longer own any rtis after the rtXXi series. Now there is a great budget bookshelf - the rt25i. I would love to read a comparison between those and the pios!

halo

Thank Jesse!

Is there anything audio you own that hasn't been modded? lol

I remember the Jolida J100 A Hot Rod mod that you did a while back.

Mystery

halo wrote: »

@Mystery - Can you provide some specific examples?

Sure. I've heard the Pioneers but didn't A/B them.
These bookshelves are superior by far to the Pioneers from my own experience (again didn't do direct comparison).
NHT Super One.
Monitor Audio MA301.
EPI 100.
Boston A70 and CR series.
ADS 4##, 5##, 6##.
KEF Coda III.
plus many... (and I'm not even including large speakers that can be had for under a hundy).

Pioneers are decent for someone who's looking to get speakers right away on a budget without sacrificing much sound quality.
They are much better than BB house brand Insignia, Dynex and other low end bookshelf speakers like KLH, Onkyo etc... and pretty good quality as well but saying they are audiophile speakers is laughable statement. They are called budgetfile instead for a reason.
One downfall on the Pioneers is high peak after 12kHz that you have to mod to tame it.
Also, the 4" woofer distorts at higher than normal volume so if you have a small room, they are okay otherwise you won't have enough volume to work with.
Looking at their new price and good sound quality, it's very worthy but when I can find Boston A400's, Yamaha NS-690, JBL L-80t3 etc... for around a $100, I never in my right mind will spend $100 for these Pioneers.
You may like them and it's cheap enough to try.
Just for all this hype, I'm tempted to get a pair from BB, compare and return.

Those who have the Pioneers and Polks, could someone compare with monitor 7 and 5's that are easily available under a hundy???

Also, go through this thread for a lot of discussion.
Warning: Lot of responses that say they are great are based on their price so take it with a grain of salt.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=525297

halo

@Mystery & @DSkip - Thank you both for your input. I do appreciate all points of view here.

The Pioneer speakers will be on sale again, at some point, and when they are, I will definitely pick up a pair. I ordered the RC-10, but they haven't arrived yet. I have the RTi6, and I like them. Honestly, it seems like I couldn't go wrong with any of the candidates I was considering. The Pioneers seem to be comparable more to the RTi4, than the RTi6. Given the smaller size of the Pioneers, they are almost in a class of their own. I was even looking at some Epos ELS-3 on the 'gon. I heard those back in '07 and I was very impressed by their clarity, but I was disappointed in their (lack of) low frequency reproduction.

Please try to keep in mind that, when I moved into my apartment, all my uber hi-fi gear was long gone. I only have the remainder of what was once a very nice HT, using the Polk Audio R15 as FR, FL, SR, SL, and an SVS 20-39 PCi sub. In the house, I was also fortunate to have had the use of a pair of one of my other all-time-favorite Von Schweikert VR2 floorstanders for my 2-Channel, driven by a Sanders Sound Systems ESL amp. I had heard the VR1 bookshelf as well and I was very impressed with them, but I never picked them up.

So, basically, I've been living with the R15 as my only speakers for quite some time now, and the RTi series is a step up from the R series IMO.

There is something quite nice happening with the pairing of the Marantz NR 1402 & the RTi6. I was just going to add another set of the RTi6 to the living room, but I have all the rave reviews of the Pioneers stuck in my head. lol. Unfortunately for me, I missed the sale price over the holiday season. When I was on the Frys.com site, I came across the Energy RC-10 on sale, so I figured I'd ask if they were worth a shot at their sale price. The feedback that I received was positive, so I will try them out. I'm pretty fortunate to have the knowledge and experience from this forum to draw upon, and I'm grateful for all the input you all have given thus far

Mystery

There were several sale on these Pioneers and at that price, it is tempting.
On 8/12/2014, Amazon.com had:
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Center Channel Speaker (SP-C22) (pictured) $50
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Bookshelf Loudspeakers (SP-BS22-LR) $60
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Floorstanding Loudspeaker (each) (SP-FS52-LR) $70

halo

DSkip wrote: »

If you're happy, why get the Pioneers?

Just to see how they sound in my environment. If I get the RC-10 and I don't like them, my R15 are still in need of replacement.

Mystery wrote: »

There were several sale on these Pioneers and at that price, it is tempting.
On 8/12/2014, Amazon.com had:
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Center Channel Speaker (SP-C22) (pictured) $50
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Bookshelf Loudspeakers (SP-BS22-LR) $60
Pioneer Andrew Jones Designed Floorstanding Loudspeaker (each) (SP-FS52-LR) $70

That was quite some time ago but, at those prices, I'd be hard pressed to ignore them.

F1nut

halo wrote: »

Is there anything audio you own that hasn't been modded? lol

I remember the Jolida J100 A Hot Rod mod that you did a while back.

Not much.....

BDT owns that Jolida now, but I have visitation rights.

tonyb

halo wrote: »

Thank Jesse!

Is there anything you own that hasn't been modded? lol

.

You should see his toaster.

halo

F1nut wrote: »

halo wrote: »

Is there anything audio you own that hasn't been modded? lol

I remember the Jolida J100 A Hot Rod mod that you did a while back.

Not much.....

BDT owns that Jolida now, but I have visitation rights.

very cool. I was surprised to see that he had been b a n n e d, especially after everything he's done for the community, hosting polkfests, and tons of good advice.

F1nut

He didn't do anything to be banned. It's got to do with the disaster that is Vanilla. I told him what he needs to do to be unbanned, but he doesn't care any longer.

halo

Oh, well, I'm clueless on that topic.

What is vanilla, in regards to this subject?

The new look of the forum?

halo

So, it used to be v bulletin, which everyone loved, and now it's vanilla, which no one likes?

Mystery

Vanilla ice cream flavor.
May need to add more flavors for better taste.

F1nut

halo wrote: »

So, it used to be v bulletin, which everyone loved, and now it's vanilla, which no one likes?

Correct and most don't like it because of the format/layout and we don't have half the features we use to.